"Why should Israel include its minorities? You even said that "nobody invited you to Poland" - Because like the Poles they were already there it was their home not yours they're the original owners of that land the Hebrews converted to Islam you on the other hand are a bunch of nomadic strays that invaded them ,... "Poles can massacre thousands of innocent Jewish men, women and children in cold blood" - When and where have they done that ??? ,... Your homies conceived, materialised and administrated Soviet gulags, murdered tens of millions in Soviet Union and Soviet block, not to mention more millions in China. Check your own 'contribution' to the darkest pages of humanity first before start pointing finger and demonise others ,... The rest of your post it's nothing but mudding the pond and a step dancing crap ,... Have a nice day ,...

Why not go the whole "hog"? Let's call ourselves the Jewish Republic of Israel. We will be in good company with all the Islamic Republics -all undemocratic. By law then, every married female to wear a head-covering, every man to have a beard. Black the only colour. The dreams of Zionism shattered into another Jewish nightmare.

stay on topic. your claim of jewish "conduct" millenia ago, which is bogus, has no merit in today's discussion. so, do not resort to accusations that have nothing to do with the topic and are also such idiotic lies. stay on topic. your arguments have all been defeated and you know that. arguments based on hate and antisemitism don;t wash. they do not supply any relevance to the discussion. your arguments are weak and therefore you are shifting the discussion to blaming jews in general, which has zero to do with the topic at hand. you've been defeated. just stop your posts and hang your head in shame. you are not only ignorant, but an idiot of the highest degree. pity you!

You claim that Jews and non-Jews are equal before the law begs the question: which law or basic law states that Jews and non-Jews are equal before the law? Please tell me, because then Palestinian Israelis can exercise the Right of Return, have the right to family reunification, let their spouses come from outside to live with them in Israel. These are just a few examples. If Palestinian Israelis would truly be equal before the law, they would be able to challenge a whole raft of discriminatory laws.

We, Democrats, around the world; we, renewed Christians; your loyal and firm friends; feel sadness for some talkbacks above. Of course, Israel will be always a Jewish State, but not "only Jewish". I know your Fundamental Law and I do appreciate it. Never disregard the rights of other people or other religions. Be strong, but morally at first.Our same God Unique wants it.

Why is Israel's "Jewish identity" (Whatever that means) at all important?

have you read the israel declaration of independence?????? equality before the law of all religions and all israeli citizens inside israel. by the way, the west bankers who are not citizens, are not included in this declaration of independence because they are not citizens of israel. we make a difference between west bank arabs and israeli arabs who number 20% of the israeli population who ALL DO HAVE 100% EQUAL RIGHTS WITHIN ISRAEL. the arab population in the west bank, which israel never annexed is not israeli. hence the difference. once the peace negotiations take place and THE PA RENOUNCES THE RIGHT OF RETURN OF THEIR PEOPLE INTO ISRAEL, THEN WE CAN TALK. why have a pal state when you don't want your people to return into that state, but the jewish one? makes no sense. UNLESS, LIKE ARAFAT STATED, KILL ISRAEL BY STAGES. INSIST ON OVERWHELMING THE JEWISH MAJORITY IN ISRAEL WITH ALL THE 7 MILLION ARAB "REFUGEES" WHO HAVE NEVER SET FOOT, NOT WERE BORN IN ISRAEL so that we can change the jewish majority step by step. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE "RIGHT OF RETURN" AND IF PALS DO NOT GIVE THAT UP, ISRAEL WILL NEVER GIVE THEM A COUNTRY.

BECAUSE IT WAS CONSTRUCTED AND BROUGHT ABOUT ABND CALLED BY THE LEAGUE OF NATION, "THE HOMELAND FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE" IN 1947.

the sole purpose of the state of israel is to provide a jewish state to the jewish people.

"So, I certainly can't see a problem is saying that Israel is the national home of the Israeli people." Provided of course you refer to the Israeli people as the Jewish people. Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people irrespectively if Jews live in Israel or abroad. Non Jews have zero legitimacy in claiming Israel as "their" land. It is "their" land only as far as citizenship is concerned - not the national, ethnic or cultural identity of Israel. See the difference? Non Jews in Israel are certainly no Israelis and certainly not my countrymen, and my country does not belong to them in any way. Non Jews are always strangers and foreigners in Israel. And if non Jews want a national life of their own - they can of course move to their homelands, just like Jews all over the world can move to the Jewish State of Israel. Ethnic nationalism that defines Israel and most European nation states are actually based on ethnicity, ancestry, culture and language - not citizenship. It is not the Israeli citizenship that defines Israel. If you claim that Israel is the homeland of all Israeli citizens - then you have not understood my point, because I am not refering to citizenship - at all. If you read my previous posts you will understand what I mean. Again Bertram - no "Palestinian" Arabs exist. They are Arabs. Kindly do not use terms that violate history and identity. Castilian and Spanish? Depends on how you define Spanish. Regarding citizenship - absolutely. Regarding ethnicity - absolutely not. Castilians and the Basque do not consider themselves to be culturally or ethnically Spanish. In fact they want independence from Spain based on ethnicity and culture. That doesn't mean that minorities can't live among the Basque and Castilians and have equal democratic rights - but those countries don't belong to the minorities.

...ethnically and culturally speaking. You can't separate between Israeli and Jewish. Israeli/Israelite/Judean/Jewish/Hebrew is the same. If you question Israel's Jewish identity you are essentially asking why we have a right to exist. Very racist. It's like asking why China should be Chinese. How can Israel be anything else but a Jewish country since it was founded for and by the Jews? Hello? Do you live on this planet? Have you missed the fact that Israel is an Israeli/Israelite/Hebrew/Judean/Jewish nation state? Why is Israel's Jewish identity so important? Could it be because Israel IS a JEWISH STATE? Could it be because Jews have enjoyed centuries of independce in ancient times as a JEWISH STATE? Could it be because modern Israel is the inheritor of the ancient Kingdom of Israel? Could it be because Jews are the hosts and masters of Israel? Could it be because Jews are the majority of Israel? Could it be because Jews WANT a country of their own on the same premises as dozens of ethnic nation states exist across Europe, Asia, Africa and Middle East? Have you ever heard of identity, independence and sovereignty? Why is Spain's Spanish identity so important? Why do Spaniards need a country of their own? Why is Germany's German identity so important? Why do Germans need a country of their own? Why do you assume that non Jews of all nationalities, races, cultures and religions can have nation states but Jews cannot? Isn't that racist and discriminatory Jonathan? Jews have lived at least for 3000 years in Israel - some historical sources say even 3500-4000 years. Now let me ask you a few questions: 1) what's the purpose to your question? 2) What is your ethnicity? 3) Why don't you question the identity of other nation states?

I have understood you perfectly. Two things. First, we disagree on what kind of country Israel should be, so let' s put that aside. Second, you are just plain wrong when you talk about other countries. Where to start? UK, US, France, Brazil, even China - all non-ethnonational states. Sure, there are dominant groups and discrimination, but these - and many others - are not defined ethnically. The supreme example of an attempt at ethnic self- definition was of course Nazi Germany. Enough said. Ethnonationalism is outmoded and dangerous.

Yes - Israel as a state for the Jewish. But, not exclusively. Israel undoubtedly has a decidedly Jewish character but this does not - and should not - exclude other aspects. A minor example: the centrepiece of the publicity for Haifa is not Jewish but the Bahai Gardens.

Omitted 'people' at the end of the first sentence.

Show me something that was build or made by ancient (biblical) Jews or their rulers in Israel or anywhere ,...

I am not quite sure what you are saying but if it is about the presence or absence of archaeological evidence of past societies I think this is all beside the point. Alexander and his ilk speak utter nonsense and merely betrays his own historical ignorance and ideological straitjacket. Let's start from where we are now and take, for example, the ailing Nelson Mandela, someone who should be bitter about the oppression meted out by the minority 'Europeans'. In fact, he regards them as fellow citizens who have as much right to South African national identity as anyone else. Ethnonationalism will always end in tears, destruction and massacre.

#1 I asked the question because I'm confused by the fact everyone sees the need to add an ethic identity to a state A state as I see one is a area of land with defined boundaries and ruled by a single government #2 My ethnicity is kind of a hodgepodge of several ethnicities including Irish Nordic Anglo-Saxon Hispanic, I think there's a few Arabs in my family tree too. Its better to ask my nationality which is American #3 I question my nations claim of being a Christian nation, Chinas claim of being a republic, North Korea's claim of being anything other than a third world country, I can give you a list if you want

Ok. But questioning the political system of China or North Korea is NOT the same thing as questioning the very identity of their country. You questioned Israel's ethnic identity and to me that is an act of hostility since that is clearly an attack on our identity and our country. Attacking our identity is the same as attacking our existence in case you haven't understood it yet. No matter if you did that on purpose or not - no matter if your intention was hostile or not, questioning and attacking our identity will be seen my most Jews as an act of hostility. Questioning the political system and the identity of a country are two different things. "I asked the question because I'm confused by the fact everyone sees the need to add an ethic identity to a state" Believe it or not, but hundreds of millions of people across Europe, Russia, Central Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Asia base their countries on ethnicity - meaning their countries exist as national homelands for a particular ethnic and national group. Believe it or not, but most of these people don't do it out of concern for politics or ideology - not at all. It is their identity, their history and their ancestry. They don't even make politics of this question and rarely reflect on it on a daily basis. Ethnic identity is not important to you for obvious reasons given your background and the country you live in. USA defines its identity based on citizenship - not ethnicity. Nation states base their identities on ethnicities and citizenship - because that is precisely what a nation state is - a land with defined boundaries and ruled by a single government representing a particular ethnic, racial, cultural and religious group of people. This is not unique to Israel. I'll give you a list of other nation states: China, Mongolia, both Koreas, Japan, Vietnam, Iran, Turkey, more than 20 Arab states, Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania, Greece, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajdzan, Germany, Austria, France, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Iceland.

There's non - Getting bored with their repeated reference to their fairy tales as a legit claim to that part of ME despite that there's no visual proof to support it ,... In regard to Alexander and his ilk twisted logic they're nothing but a dim hasbara peddlers adding one more nail to their coffin every time they open their mouth ,...

And you don't stay on topic - as usual. Jews/Israelis are the historical population of Israel and Poles are the historical population of Poland. You are distorting history as usual. There is absolutely not factual basis for your statements - as usual. I am talking about equality of all men I am talking about democracy and human rights. Answer my question: why can non Jews and Arabs live in Israel and why can't Jews live in Poland? Hypocrite... When Poles have massacred Jews? Try WW2 and the Holocaust and Polish cooperation and sympathies with Nazi Germany against Polish Jews. Entire Jewish villages were massacred by your Polish homies. I sincerely wish that Poland will become a victim of the very evil they have subjected the Jews to. So my "homies" "conceived", "materialised" and "administrated" Soviet gulag camps? I'd guess that's why most Jews were no Communists and most Communists were no Jews and most Jews were perfectly decent, loyal and law abiding citizens, that's why most people of the USSR administration were no Jews, and I also assume that's why the USSR was anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, forbade Hebrew and Judaism and threatened and very often did send Jews to gulag camps? Get yourself a brain moron. "The rest of your post it's nothing but mudding the pond and a step dancing crap ,..." Yes perfect excuse when you run out of steam, run out of arguments and have no concrete facts to back up your statements with and also a perfect excuse when you can't go on ranting and supporting your racist and discriminatory ideas and double standards against Jews. "Have a nice day ,... " Hasta la vista baby and enjoy the future that Poland has not.

Please answer these questions: 1) Who responded to whom first? Did I comment on your talkback first or did you comment on mine first? Please answer my question. 2) Have I personally insulted you anywhere? I'm just a bit confused why you are resorting to hysterical rantings and insults. "Alexander and his ilk" Well that's an insult. Where did I insult you? If I am not mistaken, wasn't it you who said that you want to debate in a cultured and civilized manner? "speak utter nonsense" What "nonsense" are you referring to? "merely betrays his own historical ignorance" No I am quite educated in history - that's one of my strongest subjects. I like ancient, medieval and modern, contemporary history. What exactly did I say that is supposedly "incorrect"? "ideological straitjacket." I am no ideologist and my ardent support for Jewish ethnonationalism - the very BASIS for Israel's contemporary existence and history, is not even remotely connected to ideology. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am no ideologist. I don't like ideologies since they are articial and place straitjackets on people. You seem to be one of them since you are so hysterically hostile to ethnonationalism which, believe it or not, forms the very basis and identity of most continental European states. Then you have to pick a fight with hundreds of millions of Europeans. "Ethnonationalism will always end in tears, destruction and massacre. " Provided it is based on 1) a racist genocidal ideology, 2) a despotic political system -a totalitarian state, and 3) a collective and popular mindset of the citizens supporting a mass movement with a political, social or religious motive. Identity in itself is not the problem since hundreds of millions of Europeans live today, here and now, in countries based on ethnonationalism - including "role models" such as Denmark, Finland, Sweden,Norway and Iceland. Throughout most of history, nation states and ethnonationalism have been very rare, and yet millions of peoples have died across the globe. How do you explain that Watson? Hundreds of millions of Europeans live today in nation states that are based on ethnonationalism and secular liberal western democracies. Where are the tears, destructions and massacres in continental Europe today Bertram in the year of 2013?

split clearly lies about "no" physical proof exists of ancient Israel and ancient Jews. split and I had a previous discussion: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4232807,00.html The posts between nr 92 and nr 102 are relevant. Check my post nr 93 and check split's response nr 95. In post nr 93 I provided ample archaeological evidence for ancient Israel and Jews. Not even when split is faced with hard facts can he stop writing lies. In nr 95, split said: "Not exclusively in case of language and alphabet :) ,...The Hebrew language was "adopted" from Canaites, their alphabet from an Assyrians. Yiddish language was stollen from German and Slavic nations,... " Why does split speak of a Hebrew language belonging to a people that supposedly didn't exist?

Bertram, let me put this in a blatantly clear manner: you are extremely ignorant. China, Japan, both Koreas, Mongolia, Russia, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Ireland and most European states are nation states based on ethnicity and ancestry. You claiming otherwise won't change that. Their formal identities say that and the facts on the ground speak that loud and clear. I am interested in facts - not subjective opinions. UK is a union of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. UK is not a nation state - true - no denial of that- but a UNION of nation states, and if the UK was ever to split into separate states, they would certainly be nation states since there are English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish peoples. In regards to USA and Brazil: I've never said that they are nation states. You are putting words in my mouth. USA and Brazil are naturally no ethnic nation states just like the rest of North and South America, Australia´and New Zealand are no ethnic nation states. Australia, USA, Brazil and the republics of North and South America base their national identities on citizenship only. The "detail" you are missing is that some countries base their national identities exclusively on citizenship whereas ethnic nation states base their identities on ethnicity and citizenship. These are the realities in our world today in 2013.

Why not consult Wikipedia? Here you will find the following: According to the French Constitution, From the (extant) constitution of the Fifth Republic: "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis." Article 1. and "The term Chinese people may refer to any of the following: People with Han Chinese ethnicity (often simply referred to as "Chinese" or "ethnic Chinese" in English).[1] The Zhonghua minzu, a supra-ethnic concept which includes all 56 ethnic groups living in China that are officially recognized by the government of the People's Republic of China, such as Han, Zhuang, Manchu, Tibetans, and other established ethnic groups who have lived within the borders of China since at least the Qing Dynasty (1644–1911)." I rest my case.

In anticipating your response, if you were to accept that France and China were multi-ethnic states, you would no doubt deny that they were 'nation-states'. That is your prerogative. However, in practice, such states mostly operate as 'nations' internally (with varying degrees of ethnic autonomy and movements for secession) and there is wide global and mutual recognition as 'national' entities. I hope you are able to engage with this complex area and realise that a simplistic view, such as yours, is erroneous.

Hagai Segal is in error to accuse Europe of,"hatred of religion." Like the US constitution's ban on, "establishments of religion," the bone of contention is the noxious interference of, "clerks in holy orders," in secular politics - pushing their misogyny and displacement obsessions about prayer and dress when the priority should be appropriating public moneys on infrastructure and whether contractors are competent and honest and not on their sectarian hobby time. The US having avoided official religion for having been founded by religious refugees, does not grasp the ill feelings scarring Europe's history and politics by the anything but religious behaviour of clerical institutions - and the black gowns they sided with the blackshirts too.

the fact that israel is the nation state of the jewish people does not mean that the rights of minorities will not be protected.

Here's an example of your equality ,... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4391589,00.html

Bertram, you have two (2) major problems: 1) Poor reading and 2) poor comprehension. You have not provided a single shred of evidence that suggests that France or China are multi-cultural states and you have ironically not commented on my other examples. "I hope you are able to engage with this complex area and realise that a simplistic view, such as yours, is erroneous. " Bertram, the only simplistic view is your erronous conclusion, false interpretation of every word I write and poor grasp of reality. It is not a "view" - neither a "simplistic" one nor a "complex" one, that the world can roughly be divided into nation states and multi-cultural countries. It is not a "view" - it's not an opinion - it's an observation of what the world really is. You are clearly contradicting yourself: you sad that ethnonationalism leads to tears and wars and that multiculturalism doesn't. If we assume that France and China are multi-cultural, why are there tensions between French people and immigrants? Why are there tensions between the Chinese, the Tibetans and other non Chinese? India is absolutely a multi-cultural country - it's no nation state. But there are conflicts between racial groups and religions in India. How do you explain that? India is no nation state. Most African states south of the Sahara are multi-cultural states. Would you suggest that the African multi-cultural states that very often contain no real majority and maybe as many as dozens of ethnic-cultural groups, are harmonious and peaceful societies? Should I give you examples? Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan (Darfur), South Africa, Rwanda etc.