Opinion
Liberal-traditional dialogue with brick wall
Leah Aharoni
Published: 29.06.13, 08:04
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1. It's a matter of Orthodox monopoly in Israel
Avi   (06.29.13)
When it breaks, and it's already loose, then this issue will be solved along with literally hundreds of others.
2. Ultra Feminazis of the Wall
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.29.13)
This article tries to explain the differences between the two opposing sides. OK You did a good job. Still it does not clearly address the issue of feminist provocation. A majority of men and women in America cannot and do not want to maintain relationships, marriages, or families. They are victims of the pop culture that is pure mind control. If they decide they want to be more traditional and socially conservative all of a sudden they have a better chance at marriage and family. On the other hand illegal immigrants are very traditional and family oriented, except they are pawns of the progressives as well. American Jews of the reform movement are LOST. We may as well cut our losses with them and ask them to convert to being Humanists (the new age religion) it is not as distasteful as converting to Christianity or Islam and it is the natural course that many of them will take. (Neo Paganism) the worship of Man/Woman in their case Woman. Secular Humanism is their a de-facto religion. They can keep it in America. We have enough home grown shmegegs in the form of atheists and wanna be eurotrash in this long suffering country as it is.
3. I am at the Kotel a lot. I am VERY
Rachel ,   Home now   (06.29.13)
sure that I have never seen anyone keeping women from praying or visiting. I find it AMAZING that every time I am literally surrounded by chiloni, dati, haredi, Gentiles, Arabs, nuns... All these women giving respect together at the same time. I am always amazed how so many women can be in such a small space so peacefully. Dare I say so lovingly, so respectfully. Why does WoW not see or appreciate this? WoW only wants their own spot light once a month. The women I am describing are found at the Kotel all the time. No one is interviewing or photographing them.
4. Dror, #2 the author's soulmate
Avramele   (06.29.13)
An articulate statement of how not to prepare for Tisha B'av. You and the author should go off and start a self sustaining 18th century theocratic commune in some dead sea cave and leave others, free women and men, in Israel to construct an enlightened humanist future. And did I say, respectfully, you should pay your own way in the process?
5. Avramele
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.29.13)
You are everything that is wrong with this country and with Eshkenazy Jews. Humanism is equal to idol worship. Avram is the incomplete name of Avraham and you deserve a name which is immature and incomplete. You will live in shame and self loathing. You have no clue what is awaiting you.
6. #4 you assume to much
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.29.13)
I am not Haredi. I do not agree with or support many aspects of Haredi life and values. I am not of a European background either. The several rifts that have occurred throughout Jewish history have led to many tragedies are truly sad and avoidable. The Eshkenaz are not the only ones responsible for it, but they have been the ones to indulge in it the most. The constant provocation of Jews wanting to change the religion for what they say "feels" right is so typically American and I do not mean that in a good way. America has done what feels right to them for a very long time and that is why they are nearing the 7th circle of Hell. Americans that want to do what "feels" right at the Kotel should be told to go home and stay home.
7. 4&6 Tora : safeguard of humanity.
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.29.13)
8. Finally someone...
Rebecca ,   Tzfat   (06.30.13)
Finally someone who can discuss and try to help people understand both sides of the issue in an articulate manner. It seemed to me that this Woman of the Wall was basically defending Orthodox Judaism's view point, which is ironically exactly what WoW are very often accused of attacking.
9. Ora, I agree. No Tora means no life.
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.30.13)
I cannot bring myself to agree with Jews that choose to remain stuck in 18th century eastern european shtetl mentality, culture, dress, language. It is really not for me. To each his own.. The eshkenaz perversion of Hebrew that is Yiddish kind of bothers me the most. Pronunciation of Hebrew in Yiddish just irks the hell out of me when it is spoken in a serious context by the haredi. Although I find Yiddish to be a very funny outdated language.
10. NOT WOW
Leah ,   kochav yaakov   (06.30.13)
This is the author. I am not a member of WoW but rather of W4W - Women FOR the Wall, a group dedicated to preserving the sanctity of the kotel.
11. Good luck Sisters you will overcome
Haim ,   TA   (06.30.13)
12. Leah, you wrote a good article.
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.30.13)
W4W are a good answer to WoW or should we call them Bow Wow. This is more evidence that we are in Acharit Hayamim. When you have the Tora being perverted in so many ways and at our Holiest Sites, well then, it is just further proof that we are close to Mashiach. I pray it does not get worse, but it just may have to before it gets better. Who knows what they will come up with next? Transgenders of the Wall maybe? ToW. Gays of the Wall? GoW there are no limits with them...
13. 9 Dror,Let us judge people on their..
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.30.13)
qualities instead of on their flaws.At least ,that way we can learn from them how to improve ourselves. By the way ,the Haredim i know, speak all Hebrew.
14. Ora..
Dror ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.30.13)
When it came time to change the Jews adapted and did not lose their identity or faith throughout history. The haredim by virtue of their refusing to adapt to more modern dress and modern education while still having the Tora as the foundation of life prove that they have a major insecurity and fear of becoming like the atheistic, g-odless, eshkenazy israelis that broke away from them 3 centuries ago. They need to grow a backbone and join Israeli society while facing up to the atheistic hiloni trash that think they are the apple of G-d's eye.. the same G-d they reject and deny.. Time to change for the better. Time to correct Hebrew pronunciation to more native pronunciations Shabbos is for 18th century Europe.. Shabbat is for now and also was the correct pronunciation in ancient times..
15. 13 Ora - Judging only qualities contradicts Tora
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (06.30.13)
Tolerance and forgiveness TOWARD REPENTANTS is good. Ignoring unrepentant (lacking teshuvah) violations of Tora is evil. That's Tora "nuance"
16. 13 Ora re Yiddish: u sure don't know many Haredim!
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (06.30.13)
17. Nice to read a well-balanced, intelligent article
Shachar ,   Eilat   (06.30.13)
I tend to agree with the slowly, slowly doctrine. You can keep your beliefs without getting in the face of the current accepted norms.
18. Women's rights
Dov ,   Modiin, Israel   (06.30.13)
What then do you say to the fact that in this past week's Parasha the Bnot Tzlofchad would not have gotten anywhere in their claim for proprietary land rights without speaking up as they did? Wouldn't they would have lost out had they taken the slow wait-and-se approach which you advocate? Rashi clearly says they are praiseworthy for having spoken up.
19. 15 Israeli Jew, Correct and clear...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.30.13)
reaction.I misjudged you.Very,sorry. Now,may i ask you a question? Let us say, you hear that your friend is on the point of taking for his child, a teacher,on whom negative rumours are circulating,would you considerate warning your friend ,as "lashon hara"? How can we be sure that Rav Stav was worthy to become Chief Rabbi of Israel? Maybe Rav Ovadia wanted just to spare Israel from an inadequate Chief Rabbi. We both don't know the truth,and should not jump on conclusions. Have a fine week,Israeli Jew.
20. 14 Dror Before Haredim will allow
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.30.13)
their children to mix with Secular children,there have to be changes for the better in some State schools too, No drugs,drinking problems ,violence.. Are you sure of the prononciation of Shabbat in the ancient times?
21. שַׁבָּת
Ora   (06.30.13)
As far as going to secular schools that is not what I was recommending. You need to have secular studies included with Tora otherwise you alienate yourselves from the rest of the nation. I studied Tora in American Yeshiva for 4 hours in the morning and then Secular Studies for 4 hours in the afternoon. Our schoolday began at 7 in the morning and ended at 5 in the afternoon. Davening included. BALANCE IS WHAT I AM RECOMMENDING זָכוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ I am certain Moshe Rabeinu did not pronounce Shabbat, Shabbos...
22. Ora: Been there. Circulating rumors is lashon hara. Period.
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (06.30.13)
There is a requirement to go dig out the facts, and include the facts. Rav Ovadia was required to document and present facts. He has not. He is guilty of lashon ha-ra. Period. No kipur on Yom Kipur for Rav Ovadia unless Rav Ovadia publicly requests and receives forgiveness from Rav Stav. Period. That's Tora. Too bad you Haredim don't grasp the basics (much less "nuances"). Until you grasp the basics your "nuances" are distorted and mistaken. By contrast, Rav Stav has published no leshon ha-ra, even in response. That makes him more worthy than any rabbi supported by Rav Ovadia.
23. Ora - for the most ancient tradition, ask a Teimani
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   netzarim.co.il   (06.30.13)
Scholars agree that their tradition is the most pristine (and they pronounce it Shabawt (accent last syllable). Best I can do in English transliteration that ynet post can handle. Ask a Teimani.
24. 22 Right,circulating rumours is...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.30.13)
lashon hara ,but warning some one against eventual harm is NOT lashon hara. Consult Hafetz Haim book about lashon hara,which i did, Enough wasted my time with you. I didn't misjudge you afterall.
25. Thank you femi-journo-schmourno
Benoa   (06.30.13)
for your "informed" opinion....
26. She's got it right!
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (07.01.13)
Many thanks indeed for your very well written article. There was a time when non-Jews also thought in terms of responsibilities more than rights. If everyone wants their rights, but no one wants their responsibilities, society declines. The role model of the Jewish woman is someone responsible for the home and family, for Shabbos and kashrus, for mikveh and modesty. The role model of the traditional Jewish man is to support his wife and family, to daven daily with a miyan, to learn Torah, to accept communal responsibility. Rights have never been the focal point of Jewish life.
27. Liberal Jews of the wall
David Zfania ,   SUNNY ISLES, FL   (07.01.13)
The whole idea of Judaism is that we stick to the rules, because we truly believe in God. The rules of God do not change with the times. They are eternal. The Jews who succumb to the "modernization", practice as all the gentiles. Their children will be gentiles. Their grandchildren will not even remember what Judaism is. That is what is happening to most of the Jews in USA. They say that they are "Jewish", but they behave like gentiles. Jewish approach to women is not discriminatory. It never was. That is why faithful Jews have exceptional children. Liberal people have the most disrespectful children. I am conservative and I believe in God and Mashiach, because you got to be blind and deaf to think that this world is random. Faithful Jews know that God doesn't change His mind. We need to follow the law, exactly the way He wants it. If liberals don't like it, they can join the Christians. The Christians are idol worshipers and change their rules to fit the times, to attract more "customers". God is their last concern.
28. Why in the name of...do we have to "understand&accept" each
tom ,   tel aviv   (07.01.13)
other's positions?! Of course there is a brick wall. That's how it should be with such diametricaally opposing viewpoints. Just don't try to water-down each other's "isms"... it won't work; and don't fight over the same bone!
29. 27 - right, In the beginning, God created medieval Europe...
Restorer ,   Israel   (07.01.13)
& Hafetz Chaim & Rashi, etc.
30. 21 Agree with you Tora +Science
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (07.01.13)
idem for the Secular schools.
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