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Haredim: We’ll fight draft to point of civil war
Kobi Nachshoni
Published: 24.07.13, 00:17
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58 Talkbacks for this article
1. Haredim: disgusting, godless cowards!!!
Jake Stone ,   USA   (07.24.13)
Deport these non-Jews!!!
2. Do haredim in other countries behave in this way?
Mark ,   London, UK   (07.24.13)
3. Somehow these learned rabbis missed some lessons
Jacob Blues ,   New York City, USA   (07.24.13)
When Joshua called forth the tribes, they came together to defend each other. When the word went out from Shushan, the Jews defended each other. When the Maccabees fought the Assyrians, the Jews defended each other. What, pray-tell, changed in the minds of the rabbis, that they and their students are exempt from defending their fellow Jews? So too, the requirement to earn a living. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and his brothers, Moshe, Dovid Melech, all worked. Rabbi Akiva, Maimonidies, all worked. Are these Chochem so much more elevated than our Patriarchs, Moshe-Rabbenu? The Rambam? that they can choose not to help earn a living for their families? That they alone deserve the tribute of rest of the Jews of this world? The midrash stating that if one is planting a tree and that one hears that Moshiach is arriving, that one should first finish planting the tree. So too, does the Talmud teach us that we should teach our children to swim. It is time for the Rabbis and their students to 'learn to swim'.
4. "we will take it to the point of civil war"
Cameron ,   USA   (07.24.13)
hee That ghetto lot would not last a hot second if affairs really got hot on the streets.
5. Be Smart, Not Right
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (07.24.13)
Those who are promoting this new law are motivated by ideology and their understanding of social justice. They fail to account for how greatly this conflicts with the lifestyle of this community and its fundamental perception of what it means to be a devoted Jew in the Land of Israel. They may think themselves right in impose their values on this community, but it is idiotic and will lead to more divisiveness, hatred, and civil unrest. With the Arabs on our necks threatening another intifada, do we really need to provoke battles of Jew against Jew? This law will backfire.
6. look deeper
Hearbroken   (07.24.13)
When Moshe faught his battles he lifted his arm in prayer. When he prayed the Jews won, when he stopped praying the Jews lost. When Joshua faught he blew trumpets and trumpets broke down walls, bacause it awakened the Jews to Tshuva. The Macabees fought to protect the Torah- against the Hellenists. When Jews protect the Torah Hashem protects them when we turn away G-d turns away from us- In 1948 we did not have a great army it was only a few years after the Holocaust- it was a miracle in our days. We need the Torah to protect the Jews- without the Biblical proof that G-d created Israel for us and all the years we existed in Israel- modern day Israel would never exist. We need the proper balance between the Torah and the practical world to survive.
7. Israel's own Hamas
Dan   (07.24.13)
The simple requirement to do what every citizen does has revealed the true face of the Haredim: thugs and traitors who have no concern for the rights of others or the survival of their country, and who will angrily resort to threats and force when they don't get their way. This retrograde, benighted sub-culture is completely incompatible with a democratic modern Israel and must be totally reformed, or removed.
8. Oh a civil war!
Az   (07.24.13)
Genius - disregard that commandment about joining the army, and instead start a civil war against those who don't! Pharisees.
9. Altelena
Shmuel ,   Jerusalem   (07.24.13)
Chareidim will not serve period. So now what? Put us all in jail? Are you going to kill us too? Ben Gurion set the precedent with the Altelena that the Government of Israel (GOI) does kill Jews.
10. I agree with # 3, 4 & 5
Israeli 2   (07.24.13)
They must declare that they are faint at heart in other words, cowards or afraid or spoiled in order to serve in non combat positions. After 3 years they can get out or stay...no one will take away their love for Torah or Talmud or whatever....but serve they must and a law forcing them is also wrong. Nothing by force and coercion is correct.
11. Civil war? you want Civil war?
Ilan ,   Ramat Gan, Israel   (07.24.13)
this guy make me so angry, i wish we WOULD just hand over Jerusalem to the Palestinians along with the haridim. not only within a day will the haridim be holding weapons, they'll form an HDF "haridi defense force" by next day! only to have the palistinians slaugher them by week's end! you'd fight a Fellow jew, before defending a fellow jew from our enimies? Despicable!
12. Haredim
Edouard ,   Montreal Canada   (07.24.13)
We do not need Haredim in the army They will more a problem than anything Let do somthing very simple "no army,no money" "No army. No social service" "No army ,nothing ,nothing"
13. A point well taken
tom ,   new york   (07.24.13)
While I don't sympathize with Hareidim in view of the fact that Israel is selling a squadron of jets, firing 6,000 professional soldiers , why are they drafting Hareidim who are ignorant of math & science and go crazy at the sight of a bareheaded woman. No they don't act this crazy in America , they work in jewelery , computers , and real estate and send shnorrers to Orthodox synagogues and weddings. Go to a hospital and you will see Hareidim not sitting next to their wives , but know they would be laughed at if they wanted gender separation in a hospital or bus.
14. Haridim
Mordechai ,   Beit Shemesh   (07.24.13)
the gravy train has finished. No more child support, Time to stop them treating their wives like chickens baby machines to be paid for by the State, All gone and now they also have to do what is required from every other citizen. Don't like go live somewhere else which will tolerate you! i have no sympathy for the bloodsuckers,as they go screaming for it is they who are to blame no one else!!! Tolerance, they show none so why should they expect any in return??
15. they will fight
benfivel ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.24.13)
They will fight Jews to avoid fighting the, enemies of the Jews. These MKs need constant adult suppervision, not power. Drafting Haridim will give them some much needed dignity.
16. Haredim
Dr Rod ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.24.13)
Civil war? Israel the hardest place for an observant Jew? To follow every word of Rabbis without thinking for yourself? These people do not represent the Judaism that I grew up with in Australia. They are full of contempt for Israel and Israeli society. Their behavior is nothing short of disloyal and disgusting. I am a proud Jew and I am loyal to my religion and my people. But it is very hard to like Haredim when they act in such an un-Jewish anti Israel way.
17. Never...
Debby ,   Miami, FL   (07.24.13)
...declare a war that you have no chance of winning.
18. These poor schmucks can't fight
Sheldon ,   Michigan, USA   (07.24.13)
Ironically, because they refuse to enter military service, they have none of the training they would need to fight a civil war. The only practice they've had is throwing rocks at cars on Shabbat and spitting on women. I'd be very interested to how these skills match up against IDF weapons.
19. If the government tries...
Aaron Kuperman ,   Baltimore, MD, USA   (07.24.13)
If they actually try to arrest hareidim for draft resistance, not only will the small anti-zionist segment (perhaps 2% of Israel's population) resist, but most of the other hareidim will join them. When R. Sonenfeld, 90 years ago, tried to oppose zionism the zionists murdered his representative to prevent an agreement with the Arabs that would bring peace - but in the internet era, surpression of the pro-peace anti-zionist hareidim will seriously undermine Israel's already weak international position. The draft of the hareidim will lead to a single Palestinian state replacing Israel.
20. Haredim & the IDF
Scott Havsy ,   Tacoma, Wa   (07.24.13)
Here is the solution. Stop paying the Haredim to study and or worship. Without income from State assistance, they will emigrate to other countries or merge with Israeli society. Haredim loss -Israel's gain.
21. To #5 & others
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (07.24.13)
The so called Haridi lifestyle is a tapestry and in fact may not be Jewish. For example the Rambam was a Torah sco0lar and a physician. He advocated that every male learn a trade to support his family and was against making the learning of Torah ones exclusive occupation
22. I am impatient
Sagi   (07.24.13)
I can't wait for it to start.
23. If you can fight, you can be soldiers
Norbus ,   JERUSALEM   (07.24.13)
Who are you to go against the law of Moshe to call men of 20 up to the army?
24. haredim to service
amos ,   Canada   (07.24.13)
It is very simple . cut the money to every one who refuse to serve in the army or civil service. Cut the money to every rabbi who incite for riots . Cut the money for every yeshiva whose rabbis promote disobedience to the law and cut the money to whoever refuses to work .
25. A cultural battle is brewing
Scarborough1414 ,   Scarborough, ON, CA   (07.24.13)
There is a story that is said to be true. Here it is, and if anyone out there can verify or provide corrections to it if necessary, please reply to this talkback. During the 1940s PM Ben Gurion and President Weizmann were conferring with different interest groups in the hope of forming some coherent policy on how to govern the upcoming state of Israel. When meeting with the Hareidim (known then as the Ultra-Orthodox), their intransigence on certain issues so angered Weizmann that he was on the verge of an emotional outburst. During a break in the proceedings, he confessed to Ben Gurion his rage over Hareidi stubborness regarding certain issues (like Shabbat, for example). Ben Gurion re-assured Weizmann with the following words, prophetic in their absolute incorrectness: Don't concern yourself about the Ultra-Orthodox, a few generations in this desert heat will bake all that religiosity right out of them. How wrong Ben Gurion was. Fifty years ago the Hareidim were less than 5% of the population and their strictures were treated like a joke. Today they surpass 10% of the population and their demands are taken much more seriously. Demographically, they will eventually level off at about 20% of the population by around the year 2100. Israel has to make a big decision: do we accommodate their cultural and religious needs, at the expense of the majority's, or do we fight it out and essentially end Israel as a democracy? Historically we were so concerned with having an Israel at all that we failed to stop and think about WHAT KIND of an Israel we want, and can we somehow make it work with all the disparate interest groups at play all with conflicting agendas? I'm glad I'm not PM of Israel.
26. Deport Them
Arielush ,   Ramat Ha Golan   (07.24.13)
This is unacceptable. If they don't want to serve they should live elsewhere. They are willing to plunge this country into civil war rather than fight for it.. Don't they see their own stupidity. If they destroy the country, who will pay for them?
27. No Army - No Money
Israelit ,   Israel   (07.24.13)
Threaten civil war why don't you? Shameless leeches! Thieves! Too good to defend the country that feeds you? Shame on you.
28. haredi - scared stiff of seculars
Madeleine ,   Israel   (07.24.13)
How come that in every other country where Haredim live, they work in civilian (i.e.non-Haredi) jobs, travel - oh heaven - in non-segregated buses, shop in secular stores etc. etc? yet here in Israel, where they theoretically s hould feel at h ome, they are screaming about having to contribute to the society that gives them handouts that no other country does. No-one is telling them not to study Torah, but nowhere in the torah is it written that men shall not work; on the contrary. So work half a day at least, instead of being parasites. If you don't like it, there are plenty of strong Haredi comunities n the West where you will feel right at home - maybe - but sorry to say, you will h ave to work. for th ose who like the comfort of prayer - believe on if it h elps you with your daily lives. Unfortunately we dare not, cannot, make an experiment to test such a belief by relying solely on prayer and not our IDF. Of course, the Haredi are also worried about the proposed cessation of their free hand-outs.
29. No Army no National Service no stipend-they will come
miki ,   tampa   (07.24.13)
30. No Need For Mad Divisions
Zechariah   (07.24.13)
The Mad divisions on the Talk backs are Provocative and create another Viscious cycle the Jews don't need.A large Jewish demography vote is good eventually with sensible logic the Haredim will understand they have to do more.They have to Realize they ought to formed Partison units in Nazi Europe like Macabees this needs to be their model.Chanukkah ought be their wake up call.Yearly with Logical Unspiteful Reasoning .
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