Dovy is a hypocrite. On the one hand, he laments that "Zionists" can only engage in "argumentum ad hominem" because there is no substantive justification for the existence of Israel. An ad hominem attack, of course, is a personal attack on the speaker, rather than a substantive response to an argument. On the other hand, Dovy calls Yishai and Morris "dumb", doing precisely that which he condescendingly claims only others do in the absence of intelligent responses. Using Dovy's logic, then, Dovy is a moron. Dovy also claims that "Zionists have all the media, all the weapons, all the lobbies, all the money, all the organizations, rabbis and the Congress." Congratulations, Dovy. Your anti-Semitic position is indistinguishable from David Duke's. http://www.davidduke.com/?p=464.

first to dovy , i think you are the nituray karta yourself ,you & likes of you are a shame & embaresment to the jewish faith. the nituray karta don,t pay any taxes or arnona so they should not be alowd to use any of the govenmental facility or hospital etc let them ROTT amongs themself.they are just the same as natzis.

This discussion is really very interesting. Both sides have something valid to say. Clearly NK are completely crazy, consorting with our enemies and denying the Holocaust. Going to Iran at a time like this is totally insane. They're just trying to get attention. It is also clear, as Dovy says, including from many of the postings here, that many Zionists cannot bear the thought of a Jewish anti-Zionist, especially one who is obviously very Jewish. It makes them shriek like they are being skinned alive. It is quite a strange phenomenon to see this reaction to a few meshuggeners. Most people don't know it or like to hear it, but it is, of course, true that all the Gedolim (except one) were very strongly anti-Zionist until long after the State of Israel was established. You can see it on http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ which sets out the Satmar anti-Zionist position quite well, but isn't totally nuts like NK. (I don't agree with this Website, but it's interesting reading into something Jewish outside the monolithic Zionist Jewish community thought police). But that doesn't mean you go to Iran and deny the Holocaust like these foolish NK people. The best thing is just to ignore NK. Reacting to them like a vampire with a stake in its heart like some of you people do just gives them the attention they're seeking.

These people are traitors to the Jewish Nation and should be executed for their terrible crimes. They probably still take welfare from the Government

They are traitors and scum. Israel should deport all of them that live within its borders and never let them back in.

MF,,,Does anybody know what these 2 initials stand for???MISFIT.Pure and simple/..Just like these SHMUCK Fake "Rabbis"Actually,its an insult that they use the name "Rabbi"I can only suggest that MF and these SHMUCKS Get a personal invite from that clown president to immigrate to iran.and that they all live happily ever after inside the iranian nuclear plant.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2006/02/do-neturei-karta-represent-terrorist.html Neutrai Karta Rabbi testifies on behalf of terrorist Abu Hamza in London. Do Neturei Karta represent a Terrorist threat in the West?

Really. you must be a cousin of mine, and Yankel the Dinever said nothing this go round and neither did Moishe Lieb, or Chumi Hlabertstam's husband or either of the two Teitlebaums. So who is zoomin' who? Believe me, I was working the phones. I wanna know where they get their money, and I got from a cousin in Monsey that they go around to local shuls looking for handouts. Well, start by keeping them out of your shuls and finish by not giving them any money.

Rabbi Hirsh of Neturei Karta served as Adolph Arafat's "Minister of Jewish Affairs" (does that have the ring of a devilish bell???) in the PA cabinet. It was reported that he received $50,000 for services rendered - at least once. These people are simply sniveling little collaborators with the Jewish people's worst enemies since Hitler kicked the bucket . And, yes, they are indeed traitors - not only to the Jewish people but to the Land of Israel AND especially to the G-d of Israel who, after all, was, is and forever will be the original and eternal ZIONIST. Abraham and Moses were the mortal forefathers of Zionism long before Theodore Herzl. I think it is time for the NK's to convert to fundamentalist Wahabi Islam where they belong. Then they can all, including their offspring, become homicide bombers so that they can enter that Red-Hot Islamic Paradise down below and enjoy 72 black-eyed, recycled virgins (or even 20 nubile youths if that's their inclination....!). And Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish.

The majority of gedolim where pro-zionist - many others where non-zionist - a small minority where anti-zionist - but none of them where sonei yisroel like neturei karta that satmar website (what is satmar doing on the treif internet ?) you site is revisionist history Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Spektor, the Netziv, Rav Herzog and many more to numerous to mention, Even Rav Kahanmen rosh yeshiva of the non-zionist ponevich flew an israeli flag on yom haatzmaut on the top of ponovich yeshiva rav hutner was a friend of rav kook you will never see that history on satmar website despite satmar's extreme views - they still oppose neturei karta !

Daniel I think that the many jews who are very upset about neturei karta - are not upset because they are anti-zionist - I think that like the Frankist movement in the post shabtei Tzvi era - the NK are simply anti-jewish - i.e. holocaust denial - and what bothers people is that they dress as orthodox jews as most orthodox jews did in europe in the 19th century and profess to speak on behalf of torah judaism - when in fact they are not observant jews at all and simply dress and pretend to be observent jews - i.e when they promote the retzicha of five million jews in eretz yisroel - i,.e when they are mechalel shabbos to attend and be photographed at demostrations in washington together with enemies of the jewish people when they defy the gedolim remember Gechazi - who misrepresnted the words of elisha and ein lohem chelek liolam haba - the NK are the same - Most gedolim favor aliya to eretz yisroel as a mitzva - although not under all circumstances virtually all gedolim do not want the state of israel destroyed - so are most zionist - it depends how one defines zionism - most aguda gedolim signed a proclamation in support of the state of israel in 1948 - that is a fact that can not be disputed or taken back The satmer rebbe put the chasidim who signed a UN petition against Israel in cherem - they were forced to move out of williamsburg

It is complete nonsense that most gedolim were pro-Zionist, and you know it. Kook was the only one. What they differed on was whether to have any dealings with the State at all, and whether it constitutes just the Yishuv or is completely treif.

1) This Naturei Karta Purimspiel in Teheran/Shushan speaks for itself. 2) They are easy identified and so they do NOT impose an immediate threat. 3) The same applies for the regime in Tehran. Why? Ahmedinejad commited to wipe out Zionism/Israel from the map. How much of Israel did he actually wipe out? Nothing! 4) How much of Israel did Sharon & Co. already wipe out? At least 25 flourishing Jewish villages were ground leveled incl. synagogues and yeshivot. All were destroyed by decisions of mostly secular Jews. 5) The Jews successfully escaped the physical threat of Antisemitism. The next stage is to escape the Anti-Judaism which, much harder to identify, is represented by Jews themselves.

The reason I called them "dumb" was not because their views are simply stupid, but because substantively they could not address the issues, that's all. But you cannot refute the fact that the Zionists possess the biggest army in the Middle East, have powerful lobbies, and have great sympathy (even if it is sympathetic to left-wing Zionism) in the media, etc. Everyone knows that. In any case, the Zionist Paradise is going the way of Uncle Arik.......into a progressive coma of no return......

I repeat, that so-called cherem has no stationery headings, no signatures, no names and no addresses. Case closed.

I love the way you guys jump around from issue to issue to try to "prove" your point. In case you weren't aware, judicial proceedings provide for a defense AND a prosecution, whereas your preference is simply for Soviet-style kangaroo courts where there are no defense witnesses.

Hey, Avi. Why curse out a small group? Don't they have a right to free speech like anyone else, or are you planning to sick the Zionist Thought Police on them ?

Haman had it all, just like the Zionists, but just like the Zionists, he could not stand to see one man refusing to bow to his idolatry.........He said "Kol zeh eyno shoveh Li......" " None of this is worth anything to me so long as Mordechai sits at the gate of the King."

Again, I am not a supporter of these meshuggeners, but some of this stuff about them is complete rubbish. NK don't deny the Holocaust, they just believe that Israel exploits it to gain political advantage and sympathy. They also believe that the Holocaust-era Zionist leadership at best didn't give a damn about a bunch of backward black-hatted Yiddish-speaking frummers in Poland if they weren't coming to Eretz Yisrael and at worst were willing to sell out masses of their brethren to the Nazis in exchange for the release of a few more westernized macho-farmer/soldier "New Jew" types that they preferred. These theories are not totally lacking in evidence, although they seem to have been a small phenomenon restricted in place and time. It is also nonsense, of course, to say that they are not observant Jews. They move in the MOST observant Jewish circles in Yerushalayim, New York, London and Antwerp and the Cherem story is a lot of nonsense too. There's no evidence for it whatsoever. Regarding demonstrations: Everyone can find a loophole in their frumkeit to allow some otherwise forbidden behavior, whether it's throwing stones at cars on Shabbos, or, as most of the Rabbinic leadership of Religious Zionism has done, decide to overthrow the whole tradition of Jewish Law since Matan Torah by declaring that you can never give up an inch of Eretz Yisroel under any circumstances (ie that Land ismore important than saving human life). Regarding the claim that most Gedolim don't want the State of Israel destroyed ("so are most Zionist - it depends how one defines Zionism") I'd say it depends on how one defines "destroyed."

These are Rabbis? Reminds one of the Judenrat in the Nazi era who colaborated with teh Nazis. Maybe these traitors think that if they paint their doorposts with Jewish blood the Iranian nucleur missiles will not touch them.

Now the reporter plays the "jewish card" how can jews do such things. Where was this reporter when jews were being kicked out of the jewish home land by fellow jews? isn't that what the nazi's did? Where was this reporter when part of the jewish home land was given to terrorists? did'nt G-d give the jewish people the Land of Israel? think like a jew consistantly. and you will realize land for peace is just a ploy to get as much as they can before stage 2.

Fact - Most (if not all) of NK's members are individuals who have very little social life outside their NK club. Fact - Many NK members are on the fringe of their communities. Fact - Most - if not all - of their ideology is based on quotes by persons made over 50 years ago and no longer alive. Mainstream Ultra-Orthodox isn't upset about their actions per-se, but the danger of their commiserating with identifiable fiends and murderers being a long term danger to Jews living in Israel and abroad. Did I miss anything?

Fact -Some of these people are actually pretty nice and normal, only severly mis-guided. As painful as it is, the best tactic is to just ignore them. (i know what i know because Monsey has some NK members...)

despite your denials - you clearly are a supporter/apologist/or mechaneif larasha to neturei karta - it expresses itself in all your writing - you don't have one thing positive to say about religious zionists who represent more than half of orthodox jews but you have plenty to say in defence of Nk representing nobody despite their high birthrate (it seems many of their children don't follow in their ways) One can not advocate the 1) retzicha of 5 million jews 2) be mechalel shabos when it is conveineint 3) deny the holocaust - yes they said achmedjinad has a proper way of understanding the holocaust and meant it an ambiguos enough way to get the reaction they wanted 4) visit prostitutes 5) call jews who try to get reparations from the nazis -thieves and be an orthodox jew - unless you believe that there is such a thing as a gay orthodox rabbi or an orthodox thief or an orthodox child molestor - if you believe that these are possible then I guess you can call the NK lamalshinim - orthodox - just because they live in orthodox neighborhoods does not make them orthodox -they are no more orthodox than the Frankists of poland or the Sicari at masada - who kept hilchos mikva etc. - but where completely wrong as discussed in gemara gitin you claim you do not support them - but you are defending them and are being machineif larasha The Cherem against NK is absolutly true - and YOU KNOW IT - although I heard from a satmar friend that I went to yeshiva with that satmar only signed on because they were afraid of the boycott of their hashgachas -either way - whether lishma or she lo lishma - they signed it during the holocaust there is alot of blame that gets thrown around the satmar blame the zionists many jews blame certain anti-zionist rabbis who preached against evacuation to Eretz Yisroel or america and then as their congregations where murdered - they themselves escaped - to Eretz Yisroel and America it is pretty sick seeing jews blame each other when they in fact were the victims - certain non-religious zionists behaved badly and certain orthodox jews behaved badly - but we can not judge either of them sitting all sir habasor in america religious zionist rabbis such as rav herzog and rabbi meir bar ilan saved many aguda rabbi's lives during and after the holocaust rev sharaga feival mendelson and rabbi lazar silver - both very pro israel - saved numerous aguda and anti-zionist rabbis and helped get them started in america So RZ rabbis as well as aguda rabbis of vaad hatzala acted very well you defend NK for being mechalel shabbos bifarhesya by siting RZ rabbis who you claim say that one must give up their lives for eretz yisroel - you think RZ rabbis are worthless - how can you site them as a defence of NK and although I do not agree with them - they have not thrown out the torah - according to you a women should never give birth because it is pikuach nefesh - and it was much more pikuach nefesh 100 years ago any milchemes mitzva (even bizman habayis) would be pikuach nefesh etc. the answer is that certain mitzvos by their very nature involve pikuach nefesh and we are obligated to do them anyway - you and I may not agree with the RZ stand concerning land for peace - but it is not a perversion of torah misinai - it is bigeder of eloo vieloo divrei elokim chaim

I agree that Dovid is wrong and most gedolim were not pro-zionist - but daniel is very wrong - most gedolim were not anti-zionist either and you need to reflect and try to emulate - Modeh al Haemes Vidover emes bilvova - based on what I have read daniel - you are challenged in this area And certainly there where alot more gedolim than Maran Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Zatzal who where prozionist - BTW - where do you come off calling Maran Zatzal by his last name like that at this late hour I put together a quick list just to show the utter falsehood in your claims Rav Bentziyon Meir Chai Uziel Rav Shaul Yisraeli Rav Herzog Rav Avraham Elkana Kahane Shapira Rav Reuven Katz Rav Unterman Rav Mordechai Eliyahu half of the brisker dynasty was and is very prozionist Rav Moshe Soloveichick and his descendents The Rav Rav Aaron Soloveichick all their descendents (I admit the other half - the descendents of Rav Velvel are all anti-zionist) Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Rav Yehuda Amital both resigned as RY so that there would not be fighting over succession as is the case in ...in....PONEVICH with physical violence by bnei tora who support one Rosh Yeshiva or the other my list continues Rav Yacov Moshe Charlap The Chibiner Rebbe Rav Yacov Ariel Rav Heshel Shechter The Netziv Rav YE Spektor Rav Shmuel Mohliver Rav Tzvi Hirsh Kalisher Rav Yitzchak Alkilai Rav Golvicht of yavne Rav Yitzchak Yaacov Reines Rabbi Pinchas Rosowski Rabbi Shmuel Yaacov Rabinowitz Rabbi Avraham Yaacov Slotski the list goes on and on and on based on your disrespectful and non-factual post I should not have responded - since you know - but don't care - but I didn't want others to be misled

There is a cherem - and you know it satmar may have signed it under duress - a threatened boycott of their hashgachas - and NK really giving satmar a bad rap - but they signed it - all the others signed it because they believe its true - so Dovy of Toronto - it semms you are in cherem !

after reading daniel and dovy you can see the bare knuckled hatred they have for their fellow jews and that they think if they colloborate they won't get it - but the judenrat - where all killed - very few survived

The truth is if satmar really would not tolerate NK - would refuse them shiduchim - throw them out of shuls - they would disappear - denying them employment would not help - since they are funded ny Iran and Hamas I think satmar turns a blind eye to them - so they exist

Hey Daniel - your real name is probably Yoeli - what are you doing on the internet - doesn't the satmar rebbe say it is forbidden ? then again your two rebbes are busy suing each other in a secular court - so I guess you only keep the anti-zionism and forget their other torah