Opinion
The missionary danger
Ya'acov Margi
Published: 27.09.07, 18:16
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61. Ya'acov Margi's Tirade
Brod ,   USA   (09.28.07)
I have posted a lengthy response to this earlier but it seems that it did not pass through the censor. Margi's article is inflammatory and contains a litany of atrocities that he claims were committed by Christians. His objective is clear and that is to put a divide between Christians and Jews because of the atrocities by the former against the latter in history. Hence, his aversion for Christians whom he thinks are out there converting Jews. With this background, of course, there is justification to be wary of Christians. While the atrocities were true, Margi is wrong to say that they were committed by Christians. The fact is they were committed by the the dark forces of the 1260 years of Dark Ages--the Roman Catholic Church. Christians too suffered persecutions and the atrocities perpetrated by the Papacy and their crusaders. Apostolic Christians from the time of the Apostles such as Apostle John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos where he wrote The Book of Revelation was persecuted by Pagan Rome. Christians were fed to hungry lions in Nero's Colosseum. Papal Rome would continue such savagery during the Dark Ages. Early Christians in Europe such as the Lollards, Albigensians and Waldensians were hunted in their Mountain hideouts. Hence, it is not just the Jews and others who suffered under the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages, Christians too suffered. For further readings on the subject, read "Romanism and The Reformation" by H. Grattan Guinness and "The Papacy" by J. A. Wylie. Inflammatory article like this that is based on wrong information about the Christians is NOT good for both Jews and Christians. In the 21st century, Israel is facing mounting challenges to its existence by Islamist-Jihadist crusaders that have been crusading their Jihadism since the 7th century not just to Israel but to the whole world. Judeo-Christians, that is, Jews and Christians should maintain better relations in facing their common challenges instead of being bombarded by divisive and inflammatory article as this.
62. #60 Megalomaniac from Britistan
(09.28.07)
Get over yourself. YOU need to realize that Jews have succeeded IN SPITE of extremism labeling itself Christian. Most hatred of Jews is born of dependency on our independent accomplishments. Where would all of you hackers be without computer technology invented by Jews? Without medical treatments developed by Jews? Get a real life, and you may find less of a need to bang your bible in desperation.
63. To # 1: to the American in Amsterdam
Hollander ,   New Amsterdam   (09.28.07)
The answer is in your talkback: Israel views and treats a handful of Christians ( NOT ALL the CHRISTIANS but ONLY the missionaries) as a threat ... ... have European anti-Semites not acted equally legitimate when they saw and treated millions of Jews ( ALL the JEWS without exception ) in their midst as a threat ? There is a big difference between "ONLY the missionaries" and "ALL the Jews" You tried hard but : It is NOT the same logic.
64. #60 I meant no harm
Kev ,   London   (09.28.07)
Forgive me if the view of my post was not articulated in a manner that was clear. I believe the Jewish people to be some of the most productive, intelligent, and creative people in the world, history bears this out. What I am saying is that without the righteous gentiles of America (that our God has called to support your nation in these times), Israel would be in very, very serious trouble. Multitudes of American Christians have approached their congressmen and told them to support Israel if they want their vote. These actions have a direct, unswerving and lasting influence upon the safety of Israel. Moreover, Jews within America are at liberty to exercise their unique creativity in business because Christianity has nurtured a welcoming environment amongst the gentiles that live there. This is good news for Israel and Christians because we want to see your nation preserved and protected from your hostile neighbours. Without the blessing of Christ that has come to you though America in these troubled times, I dread to think of what would happen to Israel.
65. #41, You made my day.
Connie ,   VA. USA   (09.28.07)
Your one smart cookie. How long were you laughing after they left. :-)
66. to 2 : Ehud
Chaplin ,   Melabess   (09.28.07)
Charles from Petah Tikva moved to Tel Aviv and changed is name : Ehud LOL
67. #64 You are wrong.
ER ,   Canada   (09.28.07)
Hashem, Israel and the Jews would do fine without you! Don't think of yourselves too highly.
68. #51 Vicki: YES, JESUS DID SAY HIS FOLLOWERS MUST BEJEWS IN
Rivkah   (09.28.07)
THEIR HEARTS. Perhaps you study from one of the new age Bibles that took over 10,0000 words form the Old King James Bible and distorted many truths. The OLD (not New) King James Bible is based on the TEXTUS RECEPTUS manuscript which is 300 years older than the ALEXANDRIAN manuscript used by the New King James Bible, the New American Standard Bible, The NIV bible, etc. Read Gail Riplinger's books and essays on the comparison and go back to studying the OLD King James Bible. The concordances or Bible dictionaries like Strong's, Young's Cruden's etc. are keyed to the words in the OLD King James Bible. Then read the New Testament again. Even Paul was such a Jew in his heart that false witnesses had to be brought against him claiming he did not observe the Jewish religion. Christians want to observe a Sunday instead of a Saturday sabbath when God did not change the day of rest. Did God give a new Ten Commandments to Pope Gregory? No. Man changed the Sabbath and then persecuted the Jews and Waldensians for sticking to God's selection of a day of rest. Read "The Great Controversy" which is about that. Christians celebrate the pagan feast day of the birth of Tamuz on December 25 which an abhorrent day for a feast to the Lord. Christians cut down trees and decorate them with silver and gold colored ornaments which Jeremiah said is an abomination to God. Most Christians are NOT Jews in their hearts. They are unknowingly the opposite. Most break the commandment to honor the Sabbath day which is the seventh day: every week they break that commandment. Jeremiah said Jerusalem would last forever if the Sabbath (7th day) was kept. Maybe America would do it a SATURDAY sabbath was legislated as in Israel. The religion of Jesus was and is and will be JEWISH. He said to put his (God's) laws in your hearts, but the Christians made up new laws to put in people's hearts, to cause them to break the commandments of God the Jews who are Jews in their hearts try so hard under persecutions to keep.
69. 48 Madeline: Thank you so much. How kind your tb is for me.
Rivkah   (09.28.07)
70. to Bart Cunningham& zionist=rascist BS
Brooke   (09.28.07)
You completely missed the most vital point. What the minorities want to do in Israel, particularly the arabs, is convert the laws and land and stop it from being a Jewish state. Why do you have an objection for one tiny little country such as Israel, when she is surronded by 22 arab states who forbid Jews and Christians rights , citizenship, freedom of worship or ownership? The Catholics have Vatican City & south america, the US and other countries were founded on Christian religious values. The reason Israel is so important in remaining Jewish ONLY is because when and not if another crazy tyrannical despot should choose to massacre the Jewish people again,-- Iran anyone? Arabs anyone?--look at her history.--massacres throughout time--.we have a country to save us from the virulent anti-Jewish hatred that is alive and well today.too. Not 65 years after Hitler murdered 6 million and the islamofascist would like to carry on his reign. Jews do not proselytize--we do not convert and wish not to be converted. Yet, there is a special bounty to convert Jews. Why can we not be left alone? Live and let live? It is only after 1967 that Israel freed Jerusalem and only under her jurisdiction were the 3 faiths allowed free and unimpeded access to the holy shrines of all religion. This will never be allowed under arab rule--as history has already proven. Israel allows her minorities to freely worship. She just won't allow for another Jewish annihilation. Immigration from arab countries are being significantly scaled back around the world because we now understand the true desire of Islam--the conquering of the free wrold under their laws.and converting of killing the natives. The West has started to fight back. Is that rascist---or the desire to survive from enemies from within who choose to murder you rather than live peacefully with you?. Do you know the palestinians are not welcome to assimilate in any arab country they are refugees in---including the west bank & gaza. Stop concentrating on tiny Isreal--the only refuge from religious persecution for Jews. If any religions are attempting conversion on Jews--stop it. We will never convert by force again--it is offensive to us. However--a hand offered in true friendship is always welcome and revered and to those I say thank you, bless you. Do ya get it Bart? Its just so we may continue to live----against the continued desires of many. So it is not a rascist problem--it is once again an issue of survival--and that is everybody's g-d given right---to survive, live & thrive. Drop the rascist argument, it is not valid or appropriate. In fact, anybody who is a true friend of the Jews should be thrilled and grateful there is finally an Israel--a safe haven for the Jews--at last!! Now if only we could convince the arabs to stop murdering us and our gov't to end their suicidal policies--but that is for another talkback. Thank you.
71. TO ALL TRUE FRIENDS OF ISRAEL & JEWS
Brooke   (09.28.07)
Thank you so very much and bless you. Please forgive some of us who are overly suspicious and wary. That is the result of centuries of persecution. conversion under the threat of death and just general Jew Hatred alive and well today under the mantle of anti-Zionism. Please understand it is difficult for many of us to trust when doing so in the past has cost us our religion or our lives. I am sure you can understand and some may even be able to empathize. We very much do appreciate your blessings in all manners. Israel needs all the true friendships today. It is yet again a pivotal and dangerous point in her turbulent history. Again, thank you.
72. religion and politics does not mix
David Powell ,   Everett, Wa. USA   (09.28.07)
Reading the talkbacks concerning religion sure brings out the worst in people. How sad.
73. #1 & #56 - Bart, your logic has gaping holes in it...
Joe ,   Los Angeles, CA   (09.28.07)
The whole "Zionism is racism" argument (and its extension "Judaism is racism") is complete nonsense: ANYBODY CAN CONVERT TO JUDAISM. If Jews were like the Samaritans, who don't accept converts, then the arguments you spew about Zionism (and Judaism for that matter) being racist in nature and Israel, founded on a racist ideology, is therefore apartheid in nature, might have a leg to stand on. Nevertheless, you find not just in Israel, but in Jewish communities all over the globe, Jews of every color. If Zionism and Judaism were truly about racism and the Nazi-like ideas of racial purity you accuse us of having, Israel wouldn't be home to the Ethiopian Jews, Bene Menashe, Yemenite Jews, and countless other non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities that live there and enjoy the same freedoms Ashkenazi Jews do. Also, lots of minorities in Israel (Bahais, Druze, heck even Arabs!!) enjoy greater freedoms and economic prosperity in Israel than they do in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. As far as the Jewish communities that used to live in Europe... Jews have refrained from missionary activity for the past 1000 years. The only threat Jewish existence posed in Europe was simply the fact that their refusal to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah demonstrated in loudest terms the logical hollowness of Christianity. Pogroms, The Inquisition and The Holocaust demonstrated in loudest terms its moral hollowness. IF Jews had missionized during their presence in Europe, your argument might not be the false analogy that it is. However, facts (and logic, for that matter) are meaningless when certain people have agendas to push...
74. #60 Well said
Ariel ,   London   (09.28.07)
I could not have said it better.
75. Keep Israel Jewish
Ariel ,   Jerusalem   (09.28.07)
It is very important to keep Israel Jewish, so I agree with the idea of keeping out foreign missionaries with their various kooky and cultic Christian (and other) denominations and religions. But I also believe that Israelis should consider the possibility that believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah does not take away the Jewishness of a Jew or Israeli. If we would respect the rights of our native Israelis and Jews over the world to believe that Jesus is Messiah just as we repect the rights of Lubavitchers to believe in R Shneerson without losing their Jewish identity, we would go a long way towards preserving true Jewish identity and stemming the tide of foreign influences in Israel.
76. who is righteous?
bruno ,   france   (09.28.07)
Dear all there is no such thing as a righteous nation. America was a fountain for good things but also for many evil things. No other nation has brought up so many evil sects and doctrines as America. The whole world is infected of them as up to now America was considered to be special. But times are changing. I also considered Israel to be special, however, of course, flesh is flesh and unable to do what is right before God. Jesus said: Except a man be born again he will not see the kingdom of God. He said it to a Jewish leader not to a Roman pagan.
77. #52
Yakov ,   USA   (09.29.07)
I will have to disagree. The "stateless refugees" would not have taken refuge in Israel if it had not been for their identity, and their refusal to give it up. Persecution? Again, because of the very fact of their identity, they had to leave the country they were in for Eretz. OK, economic conditions-in quite a few of the cases, these imigrants were denied economic opportunity because of their Jewish Identity, and found it necessary to leave. Granted, there are a few who didn't fit the above example, but they are the exception-the goyim that got in between the gaps. While at first, it may not have been the "primary" reason why these people made Aliyah, maintaining and passing on Jewish identity is THE root reason why they came home.
78. Hey Juan, remember how Jews were treated in Spain,
Jorge ,   Tegucigalpa   (09.29.07)
Dont give me bullsh......., on how Jews and Israel are treated in todays Spain, or who was Spain aligned with during the Second World War, no European country has the moral standing to preach to Israel, no Christian has the moral standing to preach to a Jew after all that in its name has been done to Jews, By the way, learn about the "loving"way the "conquistadores" treated the native population in Latin America
79. @76 Bruno You last line.to Jewsiah...no Roman...Pagan...
ben ,   singapore   (09.29.07)
You are just doing the thing the xtian were doing throughout the ages,,,,talking and telling us about the concept of Born Again....I am very tired of these talks....The more you xtian open your mouth the more anti- semite and ignorant you all sound. Be it know your J was a jew and we know the historical J better than you xtians.We also know where his sources of reference and teachings. BTW the book that you xtian cite too often is an added, varied and substracted version. We in you book ( THE OT & NT) arte full of contadicting versions and verses. I have read them in my school days and the xtian have not given me an answer to date because they dont know their origina sabtuagen greek version, ans I am sure you know the many other version that you xtain verly dispute over. Please live the Jews alone,we have our Torah and Talmud, our shabbat, high holidays and out own way of life in Judaism. Please live us alone.This i say to yu xtian but not to the Roam pagan, They are there no more, the roman, greek came and gone Judaism still here to stay till the end.We will not follow you xtian, we follw Adoxxxx ben singapore
80. Certain amount of truth
marilyn   (09.29.07)
I learned some time ago that it is not what a person is in . But what is inside a person.What motivates them to act. Jesus didn't come to start a religion and get every one to join it. He come to mediate a new covenant , which holds the promise of a new spirit, a Holy Spirit, that is inside us and guides us, doing away with domination of one man over another.In both testements of the bible I read of Gods word being firmly established in our hearts on our lips and his word being a 'light' to our way. this respect and love for Gods word should be on our lips whether jew or christian because it is the seed of God. His word says 'the women telling the good news is a large army,' here is one woman , telling forth. religions are nets that intertwine and bind in captivity, both of judaism and christianity. but Gods word is the truth
81. The difference between HUNGER and NEEDY.
EGW ,   vancouver canada   (09.29.07)
HARTLEY- Obviously you have no idea what it is TO BE HUNGRY. Even the HOMELESS people aren't hungry., ESPECIALLY in an industrially developed country like Israel. Has it not occurred to you that many of the "hungry acceptees of "help" spend their money on other things, like cigarettes, and booze, and gambling, and tawdry clothes. that they might keep certain outfits to wear when they go to "collect'". And that there's a HUGE difference between being NEEDY, and HUNGRY. They may just like GETTING SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. You are able to write, therefore you have some education, so THINK a little. I myself was a volunteer, later manager, of a FOOD BANK for the HUNGRY and NEEDY(supposed to mean the same thing but it doesn't) and the number of well dressed recipients would have astonished you. We also delivered where we could, and saw NO real poverty, but often empty booze bottles, expensive toys littering the yards and a lot more inside. GROW UP. ....HUNGRY really means... HUNGRY. Those writers you quote likely all have huge bellies and thick glasses, and wouldn't know hunger if it slapped their ears.
82. #76 - Bruno, if it weren't for the nation of Israel...
Joe ,   Los Angeles, CA   (09.29.07)
If it weren't for the nation of Israel, you wouldn't know what righteousness is and you would have no knowledge of G-d. After all, Jesus was a Jew... Judaism and Jewish morals form not only the basis of Christianity and Christian morals, but Judaism still provides a vital counterpoint to Christianity, keeping Western civilization from the Dark Ages mentality certain individuals (Christian, Jewish, Muslim and atheist) so desperately wish to crawl back into. Psalm 92:15-16- "Still in old age shall they bring forth fruit, sappy and rich they will be/ To declare that the L-rd is righteous, my Rock in Whom there is no flaw."
83. #76, Dear Bruno
Vicki ,   USA   (09.29.07)
I like your messages, they speak truth. You are a good man. It is good to speak to the Jews the truth about Jesus, because the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other cults over in Israel never will. But I feel it is the responsibility of every individual to simply go to God, ask for forgiveness and ask Him to help guide and lead us in our lives to continue to do His will. He is the only one that can lead us to all Truth.
84. #68, Hi Rivkah
Vicki ,   USA   (09.29.07)
The Old and New Testament, in the Old King James Version, does not say that anyone must become a Jew. I understand what you are saying, but this your opinion and not based on scripture. By the way, I own three Old King James bibles and it is the only version I like to use, yet, no matter what version you read it won't say a person needs to become a Jew to enter into the kingdom of heaven. We are to be "born again" to enter in. As for the old laws, the Old King James Version says in Colossians: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Christians are free to keep a kosher diet or to observe the sabbath if they please. There is nothing wrong with those things. However, they cannot think that eating kosher or sabbath observance makes them any closer to God, and they cannot judge another brother or sister who does not observe such laws.
85. #68
Connie ,   VA. USA   (09.29.07)
Righteousness comes by faith.Heb. 11:7 .Read again Jeremiah 31:31-34 . This is clearly a messianic prophecy referring to the church age. Read also the second chapter of Galatians. Jesus didn't do away with the Law or prophets. He came to fulfill them. Matt. 5:17,18.
86. To every Jew.
ARAB CHRISTIAN ,   AUSTRALIA   (09.29.07)
You have the right to be warried and not to trust even your friends. You have a long history full of pain & suffering. We too share with you this experience. But to blame what happened to you on the christianity as a faith is totally different issues. There are criminals in every faith & in every religion. The only use religions to reach their goals. Unfortunatly, those people often escape with their crimes & the victimes blames it on the religion they belong to. That is why there is difference between fanatics & religious people. Being a Christian I can only talk from the point of view of a religious eastern christian person. I respect & pray for all other people regardless of their faith or ethnicity & especally the Jews. This is the essence of the teaching of Yassou Almassih (Jesus Christ). I challange any body who can refer to one sentence taught by Jesus that call for violence against Jews or others. In fact when he was on the cross he was praying for those who crussified him asking his father for their forgivness because they didn't know what they had done.
87. Poor Us
Georges ,   US   (09.29.07)
It's funny how jews villify christians while here in the US we do everything for them. You guys should realize that without the support of us "Christian Goyim"(as u love to call us),you probably wouldn't even exist as a country.Everything that you use for your protection comes from the american goyim;We pay taxes to help people who call us all kinds of names;You should be ashamed for your behavior towards us and be thankful for everything us goyim do for the survival of the state of Israel
88. #87 LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are oooo soo wrong LOL!!!!
(09.29.07)
You make me laugh LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
89. Read this Ya'acov Margi.....
I Love Israel ,   & you should 2   (09.29.07)
I was willing to sit here and read through your whole article. I did. It was drivel. I kept reading, to hear you out and seek out the small kernel of wisdom......there however wasnt one. You lost me completely when you compared missionaries in general to being professional seducers. Bottom line is that every truly "christian" person I know supports Israel, and most of those who do not live christian lives either stand against israel or are ambivalent to the crisis. Lets not forget that the heroes of christianity are Jesus and his disciples. And they were all jews if my memory serves me correctly. In essence most if not all christians should love jews and Israel So although some maniacs may have done evil things in the past, but no one should be gullible enough to believe they did these following the rabbis teaching. Nowhere can you equate love your neighbor or do unto others as you would have them do unto you into anything violent, manipulative, murderous, etc. just thought I'd clear the air may God Bless Israel and his people
90. To #81
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.29.07)
I won't go into the details, but I've known hunger like I hope you never will. I've lived on nothing but ice apples for a week, got sick as a dog on real food, because my stomach was no longer used to it, considered boiled nettles a delicacy, ate acorns as if it were candy and the roots of who knows what, because there wasn't anything else. When the rare split-pea soup in some shelter had more black bugs in it than peas, our mother told us to close our eyes, to hold our noses, to take big swallows, to eat quickly and to thank god for his gift. Oh, and by virtue of only having the clothes on our backs and the creek being too cold for bathing, we scratched ourselves raw and ended up being covered with scabs from head to toe, because we were eaten up with body lice. I leave it up to you as to which you want to define as hungry and which as needy. We didn't think of it one way or the other. All of it felt like hungry. Although to a child it had no meaning at the time, it was just another day in the life of Juden zweiten Grades whose Christian mother decided to keep herself and her kids out of Dachau - they had run out of trains to Auschwitz and a lot of the tracks to the East had been bombed - and alive, come hell, high water or the devil himself. So, please, don't speak to me of hungry or needy. As for my ability to "write" and do it reasonably well in a self-taught, foreign language, it is a gift I inherited from my very educated, Jewish father, who disappeared in 1940, never to be seen again and to whom, in contrast to my blond-haired, blue-eyed siblings, I bear a striking resemblance. Although my mother was Catholic, the love for her Jewish husband was so boundless that, after 14 years as his widow and never again having looked at another man, she died in 1954, smiling and softly whispering his name. When I discussed the possibility of converting to Judaism with my own children, all they could say was, “What took you so long?” In the end, I couldn’t bring myself to put into question the memory of my fearless, Christian mother, whose fierceness had kept me alive any more than I can deny that I am what I am, due in part to my father’s Jewish genes, and it dawned on me that in the grand scheme of things religions, except for those who want to kill everybody who won’t “submit” to their way of believing, really don’t mean anything. And I bet that you thought I was nothing more than just another arrogant, know-nothing American.
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