just Jews. In your city a similar pogrom was in making, but stopped (by the Jewish Ub, I guess). The usual pretext was a missing child kidnapped by Jews for ritual purposes -- hardly political. Please, if you want to find an excuse for killing the jews, the world has a huge menue to choose from, from communism to capitalism, from Christ killing to killing babies for matzah. Please explain the glee with which Poles moved into the empty homes of the victimized Jews, without stopping to think that it means. Now, 60 years later the second and third generation is still unable to honestly look at that shameful period in history. Look at the reaction you get in Poland any time there is any talk about the return of Jewish property -- you would think that the Jews are asking for something that is not theirs in the first place.

People, work towards Polish-Jewish rapprochement! The only way to achieve that is to be honest and not exadureate or falsify history only to MAKE the point. Poles DON’T have as clean record as many of them would wish to have but Jews are NOT saints either. Please read Wiki article about History of Polish Jews to find some answers. Thanks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

Dear Greg, You’re doing quite well in the way you want to intimidate me. Naming myself “a dude” and my post “a provocation” and then adding in Polish the subtle warning and naming me my Polish name. Well done, mate. Just enough to create a little horror by suggesting delicately: “we could find you, you unpatriotic scum”. But mate, that horror you intended to create was already part of my family’s life everyday for years! The Jew was gone but their fear for their life never really subsided. Barricading doors everynight like in the fortress and the panic everytime the dogs were barking, that what I remember from my childchood. I think that long prayers help them somehow to remain sane. What promted my post was your statement that Jews “went on a killing spree” after 17 September 1939. AK labelled that as an insult and I agree with that opinion. The Jewish joyful reaction to the Soviets invasion of Poland never amounted to the “killing spree” and you know that. Home Army had a nice programm, but that didn’t stop many of the groups in the country from killing the hiding Jews. It wasn’t so wide spread as the open kiliing season exersized by NSZ, but it was enough for the hiding Jews to avoid any contact with the Home Army in the forest and to seek shelter rather within the communist underground. How many young Poles were brought up by these murderers? It must be quite a lot judging by the widespread anti-semitic voices in the Internet, so I know, I know, my friend, I need to keep a good cover from such compatriots as you alike. Cheers

AK - many people on this forum (as well as on Haaretz's and Jpost's) claim that AK was extremely antisemitic and it's main, if not the sole (>>warning_sarcasm<<), purpose was extermination of Jews, hence "einzatsgruppen" term. Berman - well Bierut was also a traitor (as well as other commies), but that does not mean that he ceased to be Pole. Minc - industry, later for economic affairs. Industry - forced nationalisation - including Jewish property that you now want back. Economic affairs - well you can't say that destroying private business and forcing socialist economy was beneficial to Poland. Sorry - no good guys in "polish" (soviet) gov. 1944-1989 - at least not among "big fishes".

"Please explain the glee with which Poles moved into the empty homes of the victimized Jews, without stopping to think that it means." Hundreds of thousands of Poles have been forcibly moved by Germans to General Gubern (called by Hitler "racial dump") to make place for German transferred from Soviet Union. Those expelled were not provided with food or any shelter - just left on a street - when you see an empty house in December, when it's well bellow 0 centigrade and snowing, you don't really think about "what it means". To be honest with you, I'm afraid that you don't have a faintest idea of the everyday WW2 reality in Poland. Search Wikipedia for World_War_II_evacuation_and_expulsion "Look at the reaction you get in Poland any time there is any talk about the return of Jewish property." Another time you don't have a clue about reality. Jewish property that's still a government property is being returned to anyone (not only a Jew) who was owner before war, can prove that and apply appropriate documents to the Court. The rest is just formality. If you don't believe me contact with Polish Jews i.e. through Polish Jews Forum. The only problems arise, when former owner demand for example return of factory that not only has been refitted with new equipment many times, but also has been privatized after 1989. Not to mention that most factories (Jewish, Polish, doesn't matter) were nationalized under supervision of Hilary Minc (Jew).

Greg only said "bye, Peter" (maybe in a bit colloquial way). How in a god's name you could interpret that as a THREAT? I'll tell you how: you are a PROVOCATEUR without a clue about about Polish language.

Thank you Konrad for writing. I see, you want to be a proud Pole telling the world that many Poles risked their life to safe the Jews, but if someone tells the truth about the traumatic experiences of those who did the heroic acts then for sure he must be a PROVOCATEOUR because it it's very unpariotic to tell that the most of the danger at that time came from our vigilant countryman rather than the Germans, who in reality hardly often visited the countryside. Unfortunately such experiences were quite widely spread between the saviours of the Jews in Poland and till now many of them prefer to take their secrets to their grave rather, than be regarded as an anathema to their families. Isn’t a shame that many people in Poland are still scared to be publicly named as the Righteous between the Nations? http://www.forum-znak.org.pl/index.php?t=przeglad&id=2750

some people are discovering they can read and write, just like you. I am surprised u understood the story in the first place.

Look, now I see, that you're not only provocateur but also demagogue. The link you have posted is another evidence of your unfamiliarity with Polish language - it takes you to the Polish Jewish-Christian-Muslim Forum, not a word abut the "scared righteous". Let's face it - you cannot speak Polish and most certainly you are not a Pole. If the truth is different - prove it - why don't you write something in Polish? I doubt you'll do that and I can bet that instead you'll be throwing your preposterous accusations again.

Yes i heard about Jewish property that was returned to their pre 1940 proprietors . They had only to pay exhorbitant sums for the "maintenance" of this

I think that the problem starts with the fact that nowadays many joung Jews perceive Poland and Poles as a main culprits of the holocaust (thanks to the policy of Israeli government). Very often Germans are just ignored. At least in talkbacks lik this one. We (Poles) do not deny that there were some scums among us and those people betrayed their fellow Jews for various reasons (usually money), but they were in a large minority. They also tipped off Christian Poles to Germans. It did not matter to them. For that they were usually sentenced to death by the Polish Home Army (AK). Arguing that AK killed Jews (only because they were Jews) is simly not true and insulting. AK fought in Gettho Uprising together with Jews (what is not mentioned very often). For those lazy I copied a few sentences from Wikipedia: One Polish unit from AK, the National Security Corps (Państwowy Korpus Bezpieczeństwa), under the command of Henryk Iwański, fought inside the Ghetto along with ŻZW. Subsequently, both groups retreated together to the so-called "Aryan side". Patricipation of Polish underground in uprising confirm commander Jürgen Stroop report. He wrote that Deutch soldiers was "...permanently under the gun fire behind the getto. It means from the arian side". Iwański action he described this word: "Mayor group, with some polish bandites, retreated on so call Muranowski Square in first or second day of combat. They was supported by some others polish bandites". AK also disseminated information and appeals to help the Jews in the ghetto, both in Poland and by way of radio transmissions to the Allies.[3] Several ŻOB commanders and fighters escaped through the sewers with assistance from the Poles.[3] Although Iwański's action is the most well-known rescue mission, it was only one of many actions undertaken by the Polish resistance to help the Jews.[5] ŻOB fighters received from AK: 50 pistols, a light machine gun, a submachine gun, ammunition, 600 hand grenades, 30 kg explosive materials - (C-4 from aliants drops), 120 kg explosive materials from home production of AK, 400 detonators to bomb and granades, 30 kg of potassium to production "Molotov cocktail" and big quantum of potassium nitrate to gunpowder production. In 1944, during the second Warsaw Uprising, the AK battalion Zośka was able to save 380 Jewish concentration camp prisoners from the Gęsiówka sub-camp, most whom immediately joined the AK. A few small groups of Ghetto inhabitants also managed to survive in the sewers. AK was the first to report to the West about concentration camps, organized help for hidden Jews and rescured many of them. Many streets in Poland have names of Jews fighters, eg. Mordechaj Anielewicz. It is interessting that reports about Poles killing Jews came from the eastern part of Poland (invaded by Russians) only. There are no reports about anything like that happening in the Western part of the country, not to mention Warsaw itself. What about Jewish collaborators? There were plenty of them. If there were any acts of crimes committed by Poles against Jews, they were mostly acts of the revange for collaborating with Sovies rather than acts of antisemitism. What about massacre commited by Jewish partisans on Polish villages Koniuchy and Naboliki. A few hundreds men, women and children were killed with no mercy (antisemites' propaganda?). Talking about Jedwabne it is good to mentioned those facts too. As for the post war killings, it is now proved that all of them (apart from simple crimes) were inspired by Soviets (incl. Kielce). The same happened in other Estern Europe countries. There were many reasons for that. I am happy to continue if anyone wants to read it .

Dear April, Warsaw wasn’t spared from pogroms, as you think. A wave of muggings and attacks on Jews started in Warsaw in March 1940 and during the Easter season these attacks turned into a real pogrom, which continued for eight days, and only ended when the German authorities ordered it to stop. Blaming Soviet’s inspiration for the Kielce pogrom is indeed a very cheap pattetic trick. Did you hear about systematic rounding up of Jews and killing of them by mob of Poles on Kielce-Herbskie train station? Maybe these messages travel on the back of camels, that’s why didn’t reach Australia yet?

Good post April, unfortunately hate of SOME Jews toward everything what is Polish is to deep. They will never acknowledge historical facts. They will keep denying and falsifying history giving you as an example " my uncles brother who was a "survivor" and he was "killed" in Kielce by the Polacks and told me about it" Look at #43 ... his response is a prime example of a person blinded with anti Polish hate and ignoring all the facts you posted and jumping right away to imaginary " Warsaw pogroms".

Dear Konrad, Let’s help you in understanding the meaning of this article that I pointed to you before (access by clicking the link): http://www.forum-znak.org.pl/index.php?t=przeglad&id=2750 "The people honored with the Medal for the Righteous between the Nations from the Eastern part of Poland are scared that their neighbours could learn about their distinctions. Three families from entire Biala Podlaska district that turned out for the reception organized to their honour as the Righteous between the Nations, informed the Israel’s Embassy by phone, that they definitely didn’t wish to have any journalist present during that celebration. Last year in Bialystok such celebration had to be cancelled at all. The medals and congratulations were sent to the saviours of Jews by post. “The Righteous People” are very worried. None of them wanted to tell the journalists their names. Israel’s Embassy also categorically refused to reveal any information about the honoured people. It is very difficult to contact these last Righteous People and their families. They don’t want to speak about their contribution to saving lives of the Jews, and they don’t want to let their neighbours to know about that. Grandchild of the man who saved a few Jews, acknowledged only the facts that the saved Jews told to the historians in Yad Vashem, nothing else. The hero will take all his secrets to his grave." I can continue if you wish clarifying this message for you... Shalom

At Yad Vashem , in the "alley of the Righteous" there are many Polish names , not hidden [ at least they were there some years ago , and i don't think they have deleted them ]

Absurd ! Two weeks ago Polish Presided honored people who saved Jews and it was televised in Poland and internationally. People are proud of it. You have to know that thousands of Polish survivors' testimonies, memoirs, and works of history tell of Jewish celebrations, of Jewish harassment of Poles, of Jewish collaboration (denunciations, manhunts, and roundups of Poles for deportation), of Jewish brutality and cold-blooded executions, of Jewish pro-Soviet "citizens' committees" and militias, and of the high rates of Jews in the Soviet organs of oppression after the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939. The Poles perceived all of this as ingratitude and betrayal; the Jews saw it as retribution and revolution. Perhaps people from those region are not as enthusiastic about the fact that they helped Jews but I still have doubts. Shalom

Jews did not rush to the aid of their Polish neighbours during the Soviet occupation of 1939. There is no record of a Jew putting his or her life on the line for a Pole. Very little is known of Jewish efforts to shelter endangered Poles during this period. Nor was there any significant effort on the part of the Jewish community and its communal and religious leadership to contain, censure or even dissociate themselves from the frequent Jewish excesses directed blindly at elements of the Polish population at large even though such entreaties were not punishable by law. The impression one receives from hundreds of recorded accounts is that members of the non-Jewish minorities (Ukrainians and Belorussians) were more inclined to help or sympathize with the Poles, even though the Jews were often in a better position to do so. But perhaps this is not surprising. As we have seen, more than anyone else, the Jews feared collaborators and betrayers from within their own community.

Michael Schudrich, rabbi of Warsaw and Lodz, stated: ... We, Jews, have to acknowledge that there were Jews in the service of the communists, or even the Nazis, who committed crimes against the Poles, and also against other Jews. However, they never said that they were doing this in the name of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, the time has come for us Jews to feel and understand the Polish pain in order for the Poles to feel and understand our pain. Shalom

In Poland, under the Soviet occupation of 1939, it was the Jews, who were regarded as collaborators. This should be borne in mind if one wants to speak honestly about mutual relations between Poles and Jews.

Dear Jack, Hmm.. Viciously blaming the victims. Not very nice way to approach the Polish-Jewish rapprochement you advocated not long ago. Don’t you think so? Shalom

Peter, My intention was not to blame the victims. I'm writing about sad, often overlooked historical facts as a response to some "Poland haters" who frequently appear on these forums, always with flagrant display of anti-Polish sentiments. Unfortunately you are one of them. I don't care about anti Polish people but what bothers me is their pathetic attempt to rewrite history. Shalom

Peter, one of the greatest people of that time who sacrificed his own life to bring attention to indifference of Allied governments in face of the tragic Holocaust was Szmul Zygielbojm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szmul_Zygielbojm I wondering how many average Israelis know about him. Anti Polish sentiments of some Jews are often groundless and based on total lack of historical knowledge. It is time to change that because Poles and Jews deserve better relations as they always had trough out the centuries. Shalom

There is a very interesting book about what happened in Kielce, written by a renown Polish journalist and writter K. Kakolewski. Back in the 80s he was the first one who uncovered pogrom in Kielce. He spent almost 15 years collecting facts and materials resulting in a book "Umarly cmentarz" (Death cementry). I am not sure if there is an English translation. Who would be interested in reading facts and the true which is far away from what was presented in "Fear" by Gross? Kakolewski proved that killings of Jews were inspired and carried out by Soviet secret services. There was also a great number of high rank Jewish communist who could have easily prevented that from hapenning, but did nothing. But why Soviets? Bear in mind that it was a time of election in Poland and trials of Nazis in Nuremberg. Through the pogroms, Soviets wanted to turn away attention of foreign journalist from falsyfing of election's results. It was also meant to prove that in everyone's interest is keeping Soviets in Poland so that they could protect remained Jews from "Polish antisemitism". Soviets also wanted to avoid accusation of massacre of Polish soldiers in Katyn during the Nurymberg trials. Around that time similar pogroms happened in Ungarn and other Eastern European countries. All were very similar. Apparently through the controlled and inspired by Soviets outbreaks of antisemitism, Stalin wanted to make Jews leave Europe and go to Palestine in order to change the power and population balance in the Middle East (Israel vs England). That move was against Brits in Palestine. Many Jewish communists participated in those operations. In my previous post I mentioned massacres of Polish villages commited by Jewish partisans. It looks like any of the participants of these talkbacks was interested in getting more information. Probably "the only blood that counts is Jewish blood". You will be surprised but the same situation is in Poland. Any attempt of a discussion about the inconvenient true is doomed on spot. It causes accusation of antisemitism and equals almost a public ostrasizm. Yes, antisemitism is ostrasized in that antisemitic Poland. Where is the logic? If you want to remain serious in the eyes of influential media groups you can talk about and condemn Kielce and Jedwabne (without getting into details and trying to question), but going into public with discussion about Jewish crimes, you would end up being accused of antisemitism hands down. That book mentioned earlier was one of the most undiscussed books in Poland what given the name and popularity of the writter was very strange. Do you think that anyone in Israel would be interested in changing the official version of the history and uncovering some dirts?

Maybe you try to rewrite history ?

No Charles, we are not rewriting the history. Everything we wrote is true and it really happened. At the same time there is a lot of truth in posts of others: There was a lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitism in Poland before and after the war, YES. Jewish community suffered like no other during the Holocaust, YES. Some Poles were nasty to Jews during and after the war , YES. Can you or anyone openly admit that Jews committed crimes against the Poles during (1939) and after the war ? (Jewish communists) NOT..... and this is the problem. While it is understandable that many Jews would have difficulty facing certain unpleasant facts about Polish-Jewish history WE CANNOT downplay the historical truth "in the spirit of reconciliation". A reconciliation based on false premises is no reconciliation at all. When it comes to healing the rift between Poles and Jews we cannot move forward by pretending away a painful past for both sides. P.S. Thank you Ynet.com editors for allowing us to have this discussion.

Those Jews who as you , and others , write "murdered" Poles , were they acting as Jews ? No of course . They were acting as communists . The Jews who were murdered by Poles were murdered only for being Jewish , and maybe , after the war ,in retalation for the "crimes" comitted by Jewish communists .

You are right Charles, Jewish communists who murdered Poles did not act in the name of the Jewish nation but did Polish "szmalcowniki" who blackmailed hiding Jews did it in the name of the Polish nation.?. No We can go on and on but one thing is certain. Thanks to forums like this one, were Jews and Poles come together to discuss painful past , we are getting closer in understanding each others pain and this is a good thing.... Shalom

Dear Charles, Most of the Polish migrants didn’t have a chance to learn the history and are still distanced from the public discussion in Poland. There are things they simply cannot comprehend, eg April still doesn’t know why the Polish Army sent to prevent pogrom in Kielce, started the killing. Jack probably never learned the fact that colonel Orlik-Ruckeman, who led the Polish troops in heroic defense against the Soviet invasion in 1939 in the Eastern part of Poland, was a Jew. Jack wouldn’t generalize, so freely, about “unpatriotic Jews”, if he knew only that. I’m afraid also that very brave articles by Stanislaw Krajewski or Adam Michnik (both prominent Jews in Poland) about willing participation of many Jews in the oppressive communist regime in Poland are not known in the Polish Diasporas. Polish-Jewish dialog is never going to be easy, but sometime ago one of my Jewish friends and I sit down and invented a little bit unconventional formula for that, for our own use. So, she was telling me how much she appreciated the Poles for sheltering her and her family during whole war. In Warsaw there were many brave people who didn’t hesitate to risk their lives for the Jews. She was always amazed when simple poor people often refused to take money for their expenses. They regarded this help they were providing as their basic duty for the humanity. I was telling her that it was very nice of her to have such opinion about the Poles, but I, as a Pole, must remember to the end of my days that my family, that was hiding the Jewish boy in the farm, wasn’t so scared of the Germans, as it was terrified of their neighbours. And that continued long after the war. We agreed to disagree in the name of our friendship. ))) That was probably the only healthy formula that ever existed for such discussions. ))) Cheers

I know some polish jewish WWII survivors . They generally can't say something nice about the Poles , the contrary . I did'nt live there , my father was born in this country , that's my only relation to Poland , and he did'nt have much possibility to tell me about his life in Bobowa .