Jewish Scene
Prof. Dror: Israel, world Jewry drifting apart
Ynet
Published: 23.01.08, 15:44
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31. Israel's government neither loves Israel, nor respects Jews
Nannette ,   London   (01.23.08)
The Diaspora Jews love Israel, but the corrupt, left-wing ruling elite hate Israel and Jews, which is why they're prepared to give Jerusalem to the enemy. If they can give away this city, that we've been praying for for 2,000 years... in exchange for nothing at best. Then what does that say about them? Once they've given Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem, Israel will be defenceless, and open to near-destruction. The government of Israel are prepared to sacrifice the homeland of every Jew in the world - to feed their own egos. Where do we go in the event of another Holocaust?
32. nonsense
Richard ,   The Hague   (01.23.08)
Its not true....
33. To #12 Joseph-The Diaspora
Dovid Ben Leizer ,   Novi, Michigan USA   (01.23.08)
To #12-Joseph in Israel. I could not have said it better. I live in America. I love being Jewish, a kohain, a Zionist, and I love Israel. I had planned on coming back to Israel in 2008, but all this bad politics against its Jewish citizens is heart renching. All the things you mentioned and more from this corrupt, inept, Atheist olmert government make me and others think that we will not be safe in Israel as concervative Jews who respect Israel as the JEWISH STATE. In America we have certain constitutional rights that your government (olmert) has abandon. A free press, freedom of speech, a right to demonstrate without the fear of prosecution and arrest, a freedom to practice our religion without the government telling us not to move are lips, and our little children are not arrested and held in prisons because they have a different point of view. The thought police are not out trying to arrest me because I have a different point of view, or sending black booted police to beat the ederly and religious Jews in the middle of the night just because we are Jews.Israels government will have to change before many of us will feel safe in Israel again. I'm sorry this article is depressing, but it is the truth as I and many other Jews see it. Am Yisrael Chi With Love Of Zion Dovid Ben Leizer Hakohain Lt.Col.Ret. Novi, Michigan USA OMNI-BERATUS
34. I have.
Jimmy-Jim ,   Israel   (01.23.08)
I have a red pencil box.
35. NOT SO
Michel GURFINKIEL ,   Paris, France   (01.23.08)
It is not that Israel and Diaspora Jewry are drifting apart. It is just that part of Israel and large parts of the Diaspora are not really Jewish any more. The truly Jewish part of Israel and the truly Jewish part of the Diaspora are closer than ever.
36. Joseph #12 - and some of the others
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (01.23.08)
First of all, the number of young people on the Taglit program is miniscule compared with the numbers of Jews eligible for such a program. Second, they are - in most cases - totally unaware of the information that Joseph put forth. They probably wouldn't even be able to locate Israel on a map! For them, it's some far-away place that has nothing to do with their lives. They read about it in the paper like they are reading about Burna, or Thailand, or some other 'exotic' location. However, it is not the same for the Jews of Europe, especially France. The Jews there are much more connected to their Judaism and, therefore, Israel. And many of these young people in the U.S. counted as Jews are the result of mixed marriages; so many of them aren't really Jewish according to Jewish law. And they don't even know that. The only Jews in the U.S. that should be counted on are the Orthodox, especially the modern Orthodox. They are the ones who send their kids here on programs and they are the ones coming on Aliyah. Where we should be looking is the Anusim - those Jews who had been forcibly coverted to Catholicism - who are beginning to return to their roots. I believe from these people will come a massive return and will, eventually, find their way here to Israel.
37. HE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD !
RCA ,   USA   (01.24.08)
Prof. Dror made points that should powerfully resonate in Israel. Sad to say, that Israeli leaders have turned a blind eye to many Rabbinical statements, insinuations, and actions that have driven wedges between world Jewry in the Diaspora. Especially pertinent is the allowance of the development of seperate Jewish and Israeli identities and the rejection of the other Jewish movements.
38. Nationalism can be blinding.
RCA ,   USA   (01.24.08)
Nationalism for all intents and purposes is usually a good thing . However , it can distract and blind to constructive criticism at times. All nations are vulnerable to the supposed "inside story line". It often helps to give the benefit of the doubt when a series of events do not necessarilly line up with some preconceived notions. When everyone is thinking the same way and results to not pan out, usually some variable (s) have not been considered. The criticisms offered in this article by Prof. Dror are more than worthy of consideration, especially from one Diasporic view emmanating from the US. Yes, the US view is not the only consideration, and there may be other views in opposition to the one that I present. However, from my vantage point , Prof. Dror has come very close to the markin his conclusions, however ill received they may be. Whatever the info sources he draws from , they ring clear at this end of the line. Information is power, and it is often modulated through national hierarchial political interests that are not always immune to hidden interests. Information filtration in the US is much different from that of Israel, but as the world becomes smaller, little vibrations in Israel become major repercussions in the US. This is especially true along religious/political lines of behavior.
39. NOT SO STRANGE, but , THEN......
RCA ,   USA   (01.24.08)
It's not so strange, in fact it's fairly obvious, that left-wing politics are not favorable in Israeli politics. I, myself, have never been much of a fan for the left , except for a few social issues. What is very strange, for an American "moderate to marginally liberal" Republican, like myself, is to find myself in agreement with some of the criticisms that Avrum Burg had for Israel. Prof.Drors comments seem to bring to mind echo's of some of Burgs findings, though not in the same manner of speaking.... Funny...how the American and Israeli right wing differ !!?? Prof. Dror is correct. What about Burg ?
40. This American Jew is making Aliyah!!
Darren ,   Oakland, CA, USA   (01.23.08)
41. It's true
Jenny ,   NYC   (01.24.08)
75% of Jews in America are totally secular. Most of these care nothing for Israel or anything related to Judaism. Also, we Jews are encouraged to be liberal and Democrats and to stay away from the "evil right-wing." In this day and age to be a Democrat or liberal you must toe the line and say you hate Israel....On the other hand religious/traditional Jews tend to support Israel but we cannot support this corrupt gov't and we cannot but shake our heads at the Israeli public who allow this efes Olmert to remain in power. Remember, a weak Israel led by a loser will not connect anyone to Israel.
42. #22, Firster
David ,   Boston, USA   (01.24.08)
I would kill or die to defend America. I will not answer the question of Israel and US in a war. I know it wont happen. I will not fight against America or do anything to hurt her, if that helps answer the question. I will tell you that during the first Gulf War I would have gone to Canada rather than going to Saudi Arabia/Kuwait to defend it from Iraq. while I would absolutely defend US, I would not defend Saudis and the hatred they spread.
43. Solution-Recognise reform Judaism aspart of Jewish diversity
Gil ,   UK   (01.24.08)
If jews in diaspora are to celebrate israeli culture and arts then they should not be shunned. The more you shun, the more they drift.........easy.
44. Intermarriage is ruining secular American Judaism.
Anti-intermarriage ,   Canada   (01.24.08)
Intermarriage is rampant in secular and Reform Judaism and has been for two decades. This has resulted in in the weakening of the support for Israel because most American Jews come from a secular background. Half of the American youth who identify as Jews are from mixed marriages and don't really care about Israel or Judaism. Intermarriage is bad for the Jews!
45. Jews live in israel too
JB ,   Melbourne   (01.24.08)
I don't know how the professor can say that. I feel very close to israel if simply for the reason that, thats where a lot of jews live and i feel very close to my extended family. I suspect that they have been saying things along the professors line for a few decades now and its just a matter of fear mongering.
46. CHANGE THE ADMINISTRATION MIND FIRST
HAIM ,   FRANCE   (01.24.08)
Israel administration should have more concern about the way it welcomes Ole Haddach. It's sometime a shame so different from the dream they had. And a lot are turning back:what a pity , so much efforts and money to convince them . I know some boys who came as foreign volonteers, came to Tsahal for 2 years, fought bravely in Lebanon in 2006 , where demobilized , then became israeli citizen: now they are told that the army could call them back for an additional year , instead of the initial 2 promissed,while they found a job or started university. so many examples like that.
47. iam from jerusalem but not a jew
salma ,   anywhere   (01.24.08)
honostly i do not feel that iam in need for jerusalem .. but i feel that jerusalem need me as if iam the mother and it is the child .. i think this is the differance between this professor and me which iam not a professor
48. More Silliness
MK ,   Philadelphia USA   (01.24.08)
You seem to have skipped over the single biggest factor that might split anyone from Israel - Most people think that Israel is pursuing idiotic policies that will end with its destruction. This lack of care for the future of Israel, as it appears to most, from Israelis themselves, does more to push people away from Israel than anything else.
49. 29
zionist forever   (01.24.08)
I moved to Israel a number of years ago now but I will allways remeber this one guy who stuck in my mind at the merkaz klita. He was an American, he had never been to Israel in his life then he had some financial problems at home in the US lost most his money because his business went under. He then decided to come to Israel because he thought things would be easier here because the Israeli government would help him out because he was jewish and making alliyah. This is simply a matter of jews who have never felt any conection or visited Israel in their life only turning to Israel when they needed something and nothing more. They dont care about Israel during the good times, dont even make financial donations even if they can afford it but when they fall onto hard times they suddenly love Israel so much they want to make alliyah.
50. #49- zionist. I don't mean to be facitious......
RCA ,   USA   (01.24.08)
But, when are the good times in Israel ? Which times are these? I intend to visit Israel several times in the future. But , if I have a choice, I would rather come during the good times, because happiness is contageous. Can you blame me ?
51. There are problems
Jonathan and Mollie ,   Pennsylvania   (01.24.08)
At the present time there are 2 main problems about Israel that are causing tensions with the Diaspora. First, American and other diaspora Jews are disenchanted by the inept Israeli government. Israel's failure to win the war against Hezbollah has convinced some Jews that Israel has lost the capacity to win wars. Second, the lack of Jewish pluralism in Israel has angered many non-Orthodox Jews. Israel has to give the same rights to non-Orthodox Jews as to Orthodox Jews. However, it isn't only Israel that is to blame for the antagonism. Unfortunately, there are many American and diaspora Jews that are ignorant of what is going on in Israel. They refuse to research the biased NY Times and other liberal newspapers constant criticisms of Israel and have bought into the Palestinian narrative that Israel is oppressive. Other Jewws care little about their heritage and couldn't care less about the Jewish State. The Jewish left poses a major threat to Israel's well-being. These self-important fools actually agree with leftist David Landau's plea to Sec. of State Rice that the US rape Israel.
52. What Do You Expect? Israelis Have Made a Mess of Israel.
Dan Friedman ,   NYC USA   (01.25.08)
After 60 years, Israel is a post-Zionist nightmare ruled by a corrupt, treacherous oligarchy kept in power by a lazy, inert populace. What Jew in the Diaspora would want to identify with that?
53. What Is a Jew?
Yosef ,   Israel   (01.25.08)
A diaspora was created with the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE. and has been in existence for over 2500 years even during the period of the Second Jewish commonwealth. The Jewish community in E.I. related to the diaspora Jews much like one relates to in-laws. Visit and shower us with gifts but don't tell us how to live. Diaspora Jews have heeded the advice of Jeremiah given in the time of the first temple. The problem today shared by the Jewish community in Israel and those of the diaspora is not who is a Jew but rather, what is a Jew. In other words, Jewish identity and the notion of nationhood, If English Jews consider themselves Englishmen of the Jewish persuasion and Israelis define themselves as Israelis of the Jewish persuasion, therein lays the problem.
54. RCA , Don't wait , come !
charles ,   petach tikva   (01.25.08)
First what are good times for you ? Now ? No , the $ is weak . In the summer ? no , to hot . In the spring ? No , you risk to have a "sharav" , hot dry winds from the desert . In the winter ? No , you'll risk to be wet . And so on . Don't think , come as soon as possible and enjoy ! Before making Alyah , i was here maybe 20 times , i never was looking for bad or good times , i came .
55. don't agree
Eitan ,   Canada   (01.25.08)
The majority of the Diaspora Jews are secular, individuals that don't follow any jewish leaders. The reasons for growing distance between them and Israel in my opinion are: 1) Israel's relative stability in the recent years, it lost it's image of David struggling against Goliath. Recent attacks on Israel from Hamas and Huzbullah don't seem to pose such existential threat as Israel used to face before. Hence, the pride of an average Diaspora jew is diminishing, the poetic dramatic fervor is nearly gone. And about that there is nothing to do, it's better this way. 2) Israel has poor PR, the country is rarely mentioned abroad with other than Biblical and the MidEast conflict contexts. Israel should first have a better Hasbara that actively, patiently and maturely explains Israeli situation and actions to the world every time it's going to get attention. And second, try to show more of the other faces of the country: it's culture, nature, entertainment, cultural diversity, compassion for counties in crisis, etc, anything that makes Israel to appear modern, fun, exciting, beautiful, vibrant and talented country, as it really is, but the outsiders never had a chance to appreciate. Most images coming from Israel are of Jerusalem stones, palestinian refugee camps and Israeli polititians and generals, people have no concept of what Israeli society looks like. With better PR Israel can get more solidarity, tourism, acceptance and respect, translating into more stable political situation and stronger economy. So it shouldn't be just about studying and pleasing the Diaspora jews, the country can't depend on some specific demographics, it should work on making itself look more appealing globally, then everone that can claim any link to Israel will be proud of it and want to be more connected.
56. Um...I've Been to Israel...
Thomas   (01.25.08)
Israelis, with the exception of the Ethiopians and many of the Arabs I came across are simply the most obnxious people I've ever met. I couldn't wait to go home. And when I read of hostels in India and Southeast Asia posting signs saying no Israelis welcome because Israelis are notorius when it comes to stealing from hotel rooms, it hardly fills me with pride in being Jewish. Who would risk having their own children turn out to be an Israeli?
57. There is a problem that can be solved
Phil ,   US   (01.25.08)
The ignoramuses that call Israel a failed state, including prominent American Jews, just don't know what they are talking about. Most have never visited Israel to observe firsthand what the country is like while other critics refuse to see what really is there. Obviously Israel has problems. Presently, their political system is a mess and this has resulted in an incompetent, corrupt, and uncaring Kadima administration. Their economy has suffered from the tremendous disparity of income and there are problems in the schools and with a rising crime rate. The strain on the budget of having to maintain a huge military has contributed mightily to the country's economic woes. Can you imagine New York City supporting one of the world's largest airforces? Yet NYC has about 7000,000 people compared to Israel's 6000,000 people. Despite all of this, Israel has become a leader in technology, al;l areas of science aqnd medicine, and supports a vibrant theater and music community. Israel has first class resorts, outstanding universities, and has maintained a vibrant democracy. Israel simply has to spend more money on getting its message out to the audiences that count and part of this effort has to be with teenagers and young adults. Remeber, Israel's problems are not that different from those of the US. Presently, the US is set to go into a recession. There is a tremendous spread between those ant the top of the scale and those struggling tro put food on the table. In the US, money talks much more than in Israel. For example, over 40 million people in the US have no health insurance and thus no access to decent medical care, The crime rate in America is astoundingly high and in some areas, it is unsafe for businesses and people living there. Our educational system is also under fire for failing to deal with the education of the poor and unmotivated student and colleges has become so expensive that many students graduate with huge debtsd that affect their quality of life for years. So you see, its not just Israel that is having problems. Remember, Kadima will not last forever and there will be a reaction against the horrendous Knesset system of government.
58. Shoah is future so long as Christendom has a Jewish Problem
David Turner ,   Richmond, US   (01.25.08)
I would have liked to see a more detailed description of Professor Dror's background to his conclusions, which I can only agree with. My understanding of that background follows. Antisemitism and Islamophobia are both instances of xenophobia. In a way that's consoling to us Jews who prefer to consider ourselves hated because we are viewed as Other, something possibly overcome by educating the majority population, by ourselves demonstrating by behavior that we are as loyal to our country of residence as our non-Jewish neighbor. More so! A consoling thought, but unfortunately does not conform to our unique history of dispersion among Christendom. Without going into describing 1700 years of persecution, torture, murder and expulsion which was a constant of our life in dispersion, our most recent brush with our host's Jewish Problem presents an excellent example of the tragedy of mere xenophobia to describe Shoah. Jews lived in and had colonies in Germany for more than 2000 years (how far back can the forerunners of modern non-Jewish Germany trace their forebears?). In pre-Hitler Germany we were leaders in politics, culture and commerce, intermarried at a rate only now approached in the US. In no country before or since were our people more loyal or assimilated. When we seek a reason for the aberration Hitler serves both as explanation and reassurance. After all, pre-Hitler Germany was among the most civilized and cultured in Christendom. turning on a minority constituting less than 1% of the total population; then expanding its machinery of death to include all Jews in Europe and, if successful, worldwide? The sheer magnitude, the insanity of the project bangs at the door of insanity-, of mystery-as-explanation. But how explain the residents of Jewabne, Poland forcing their Jewish neighbors and friends into barn and then setting it ablaze? And the Ukrainians who rescued their Jewish neighbors from the SS only to club them to death before, what was described as the disgusted eyes of the Germans, were they Nazis, also under the sway of that half-crazed German leader? Or the French police who rounded up the Jews of Paris for deportation to Auschwitz Nazis also? Was all Europe Nazi, under the evil influence of the madman from Germany? Were we the victims of world-wide xenophobia? I think not. Simple explanations are consoling. They are also dangerous, and in the case of the Jewish people, fatal. We are singled out not because we are “strangers”, for how long does it take to be considered native, 200 years, or 2000? In the case of the Jews xenophobia is at best a partial explanation, a background as explanation and justification. The real cause of anti-Jewish animus lies at the very heart of Christian dogma and belief. Condemned by the gospels as the deicide people, blamed for the death of the Christian god, condemned for the crime for all generations it should be no mystery that anti-Judaism, and its secular daughter antisemitism are a permanent part of Christendom, and of Jewish experience in the Christian Diaspora.
59. #54-Hello Charles ! You are a true patriot.
RCA ,   USA   (01.25.08)
I will get there. How soon? Can't say now. Have closed my business office and relocated 5 hours away. Must reopen again as soon as possible. Still hunting for office space. Once re-established, I can make plans for Israel. When there I will come and meet you . HaHa!!!
60. Perhaps the Jews in diaspora should be given the right to
Rivkah   (01.25.08)
vote in Israel like the Mexican-Americans in America who are also Mexican citizens can vote in Mexican elections, at least for the President of Mexico. I suggest people read the book by Bill Salhus called "The Missing Piece of the Middle East Puzzle" which will be release later this year according to a Kade Hawkins review of it. The next big war may not be the Ezekiel chapter 38-39 war with Russia and a Moslem alliance since many Moslem Middle East countries are missing from that war with Russia. There has to be an Arab-Israel War first that greatly expands Israel's borders and greatly enriches Israel first. Israel will become one of the wealthiest nations on earth. Psalms 83:4 describes an Arab-Israel war that has to happen before the Magog War of Ezekiel chapter 38-39. There is much to come for Israel that will be good and that will be harmful. The borders and population of Israel will be greatly expanded. There will be a great migration to Israel from the West, as America suffers future setbacks and Israel looks more inviting to Jews than it perhaps does now.
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