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London students call for divestment from Israel
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Published: 17.02.08, 08:24
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61. #45 Aaron
Moshe ,   Israel   (02.17.08)
I don't think we can live as a "NORMAL" country if our citizens are bombard on daily.
62. What Else Can You Expect
tinashkuli   (02.17.08)
from the Islamic State of Britain http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=515248&in_page_id=1770&ct=5
63. Dear Leonarisso, #52
israeli ,   israel   (02.17.08)
I congratulate you for attending a UK University. I take it you are a student, not a lecturer, since I couldn't possibly imagine a distinguished English professor going for I have showed. I wonder how the economy of Europe (and perhaps not only) is going to look in a decade or two, given that students are much more engaged in politics than in their studies. A propos boycott, can you please start by staying clear of this very site? In understand that boycotters can't be selective. You have to go for the "full monty" so to speak. Also, in the future please make sure you use no, and I mean NO Israeli products. Avail yourself of "Made in Palestine" goodies.
64. British-Arab students
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of those students are Arabs
65. #52 Leo, its democratic racism. Nazis would be proud
David ,   Boston, USA   (02.17.08)
You dont boycott Hamas because its charter calls for killing Jews. You dont boycott Saudi Arabia for numerous international offenses. You dont call for boycotting Jordan Palestine for its racist law of preventing Jewish citizenship which the Bristish started. Its democratic, but so was electing the Nazis. It just goes to show that the British have learned nothing from history and continue to practice racism. This targeted against Jews. And if you think a few Jews voting for it mean it isnt anti-semitic you are wrong. There are many self hating Jews around the world. They are a small minority and are as bad as Hamas and others calling for murdering Jews. As for international law. I am no expert, but I believe the only international laws that apply here go back to the league of nations and that clearly states that Judea and Samaria are part of Israel. Arabs have Palestine east of the Jordan. So they are occupying Israeli land. I do know for a fact there is no law ever written that calls its "Palestinian territory" Even UN 242 does not call for full withdrawal. I submit that by giving up land to Egypt, Sinai, Israel fullfilled 242, and it is the Arabs who have not fullfilled international law.
66. These students
Nick ,   London   (02.17.08)
It's ok for them to come from privaliged homes and not have a clue about the history of the middle East and decide it's 'cool' to hate Israel.
67. Response to #59
Leonarisso Alexis ,   London;Great Britain   (02.17.08)
to #59...Absolutely, by no means do we ignore the increasingly unstable situation in Gaza and with it the militant activities which affect the lives of innocent Israeli citizens, especially by the qassams. However the issue is that we must differentiate between the actions of a modern, democratic, developed sovereign nation and that of a terrorist organisation. I don’t think it is respectable to equate the State of Israel with the militant wing of Hamas. Whilst dealing with this terrorist organisation is essential in order to bring a lasting peace to the region, they cannot be dealt with in the same way that Israel should be dealt. This is because the State of Israel is obliged as a sovereign nation to respect the international community and uphold the law- no exceptions. Israel’s 60 year history is marred with illegal conduct. History aside, international organizations have conducted many a report which indicate evidence of discrimination tantamount to apartheid. This is backed up by the notion that tourists to the State witness themselves, the disgraceful treatment of particularly sections of the community, one friend personally went as far to say they were treated like “cattle”. The Media itself confirms this. From vast and respectable mediums; the BBC to CNN, AL-Jazira to EuroNews we in the west can see for ourselves how the apartheid regime conducts its business, often with horrifying consequences. Our message is we want this to stop. By examining history we can observe that boycotts can convey the message perfectly, especially in the face of decades of ignoring international law. How else can we in the West exert our influence? The Israelis have a tendency to ignore the voice of the international community so perhaps through our proposed actions, we will see some changes. Opening, I spoke of the situation on Gaza. Israel has demonstrated quite aptly its choice of method to dealing with this situation. These decisions are what call for such boycotts as the world watches how the people of the Gaza strip in a humanitarian crisis as a result of yet again, disregard for international law, Geneva conventions, and general morality.
68. Divestment?
Michael ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (02.17.08)
All right, students, throw away your Intel processor powered laptops, your third generation cellphones, your Windows XP and Vista progams and all the Israel-developed medications in your medicine cabinets. If you're going to boycott us, do it right! if you're only going to boycott what's convenient for you to boycott without sacrificing anything personally, then shut up.
69. #52, "democratic"??
Danny   (02.17.08)
Let's see there are 8,500 students at the LSE. 300 voted for this, so 96% of the student population didn't - mostly because for them this is a non-issue. So if knowing you and 4% of the students at the LSE agree on this topic makes you feel in the majority, I can only hope you are not studying a numerical subject. Philosophy maybe?
70. Dumb they may be, but not half as dumb a most of these posts
David ,   Los Angeles   (02.17.08)
71. Alexis-What % of LSE students are Muslim or other Ethnic.
Alan ,   SA   (02.17.08)
72. #67
Ram ,   London   (02.17.08)
So basically, your expectations from Israel are that it should conform with international law while the "terrorist state" of Gaza shall remain exempt from the same. I find this hard for my logic to swallow. Incidentally, legally Israel does uphold international law just as much as other countries do, if not more, including enforceable UN resolutions such as 242. If you will refer to the media, and organisations such as UNRWA and others proven in their biased reporting then you are clearly marking the confines of where you stand. The Gaza strip is facing a humanitarian crisis because of whom they have elected and not because of Israel and because of their backing of all forms of terrorism towards Israel. If you stand and watch the delays at checkpoints and the amount of security that translate into suffering and a form of "cattle herding" without trying to understand the "WHY?" of it than you are only chosing to consider a small part of the picture. This is liable to lead you to the wrong conclusion. It would be easier if the likes of you would first pressure the Palestinians to stop launching qassams, stop sending suicide bombers and take away from their school curriculums the indoctrination of hate against Jews they feed children with from a tender age. Whilst at it ask them to recognise Israel instead of including its sworn demise in their charter, make peace with it and accept a two state solution. Once you have achived that I and many others will willingly act to right things if Israel steps out of line in its behaviour. Are you willing to learn more about what the "TRUE" situation is?
73. Weldone for standing for human rights
Student from Mani   (02.17.08)
You have all the support from your follow students at Manchester universities were we had a very strong campaign to support the human rights of Palestinians
74. #71, well some of the answers
Danny   (02.17.08)
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:3E7k4Sz2Yy8J:www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/PDF/03_0652%2520LSE%2520Profile.pdf+student+population+in+LSE&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 My guess is that most of the people voting were the "hard-left" who just can't really bring themselves to attack anyone not western or pro-Western. Even if every single one was muslim it would still be a tiny percentage of the muslim students at that university.
75. #73, define "very strong"
Danny   (02.17.08)
enough people to make a football team? More than low single figures in terms of the percentage of the students? Because you will be the first "boycott" in the UK to get anything other than insignificant support. But who cares as long as you get your headlines!!
76. Brainwashing in LSE
freda ,   london   (02.17.08)
the students have had their minds filled with nonsense. Arabs in Israel are free to move whereever they like shop at all the malls and with the right qualifications have any job. There are many doctors, nurses, lawyers and judges who are arabs. They can study at any university and there is a policy of allowing them to study with less matriculation requiements than the jewish students so please dont talk rubbish about apartheid. If the jews were so terrible how come there has been a population increase of arabs in the west bank and gaza. If they were suffering so much they wouldn't have the time or the energy to reproduce. You students have been effectively brainwashed. If you really want apartheid and a juden free zone try the arab states. That is really apartheid you stupid youths.
77. response
Leonarisso Alexis ,   London UK   (02.17.08)
Its pathetic to hear some of these talkbacks say things like "what percentage are Muslims?" and "they must be left wing"...this is such rubbish. Most decent people in this country do not like apartheid states! Thats what matters. Im seriously losing my patience with people from your community. You need to deal with the facts. We are not pro-Muslim or pro-anything...we just want to see justice in the Holy Land and the immediate removal of any apartheid regimes. LSE is majority Christian and minority Muslim. We support Human Rights...This is our only agenda. And to #72...get a grip, i have a very good mind on what is biased and what is not biased coverage. I suppose i know exactly what sources you want me to consult...read 500 news articles and im quite sure the vast majority will follow my argument.
78. Re 77 response re apartheid state
Ron Day   (02.17.08)
You truly need to educate yourself before making such , (to put it mildly) dumb comments. Please research the reason for the wall and fence building. Re apartheid, apparently you Brits never had the pleasure of people blowing themselves up in crowded buses, discotheques and restaurants. I mean at its height, a 'good' month was when there was 'only' two suicide bombings. It is unfortunate, but it is strictly a self defense measure.
79. #77
Ram ,   London   (02.17.08)
It seems to me you have the word "apartheid" well engrained in your mind and nothing will shift your thought. Arabs living in Israel proper have full voting rights and are to be found in all the professions. Is that apartheid or just your enterpratation of it? What about the arab MK in the Knesset? I could go on but I am convinced I will be wasting my time with you! By deriding those who are responding to your posts informatively all you are doing is emphasising your true colours. I guess we now know exactly where you stand.
80. #77, what "argument"?
Danny   (02.17.08)
So far apart from posting some blatant lies, you haven't argued anything. You assert Israel is an apartheid state with zero evidence - because there isn't any. Israel has Arab ministers, MKs, Generals, mayors, supreme court judges. How many ethnic minority high court judges do you have? How many Black or asian senior army commanders? How many ethnic minority MPs vs the percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK? How many ethnic minority secretaries of State? You assert it was a democratic choice of the union despite the fact you got support in the low single figures of the total student population. You assert you don't support apartheid anywhere but you failed to attack any other "human rights abuse" except that alleged in Israel. Not a word on discrimination against black muslims in Darfur - which has cost 250,000 dead vs the 6,000 dead in the second intifada - not a word on discrimination against Copts in Egypt or Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria or Jordan etc etc. Just Israel. How is Israel "defying" the international community? Apart from the Muslim and arab block of nations, who is attacking Israel? The UN council on Human rights - recently chaired by Libya(!!??)? What "international funding" are you talking about? Israel gets zero from the UN, zero from the EU. You maybe have us confused with the Palestinians who get billions every year - they are the largest per capita recipients of aid in the world, most of that aid coming from the EU. What "international organisations"? UNHCR? Who have repeatedly lied about "immenient mass death" due to power shortages, inability to get fresh water etc. Or Amnesty who lied about aid getting to Gaza - despite the "boycott" or "sanctions", the Palestinians and Gaza in particular got more aid since the start of the "sanctions" than before. Or HRW who were going to publish a report condemning Hizbollah's "war crimes" before they were threatened. They did repeat the lie about cluster bombs - they claim thousands fired, UN has found 962... Name one ethnically based discrimination that Israel has. The UK requires it's citizens to ask permission to marry non-EU citizens. The UK changed the law defining what is a citizen solely to deny Hong Kong Chinese residency rights in the UK - look up British national overseas, the definition allows white Hong Kong ex-pats to be fully british but denies it to chinese. You claim to be reading articles from "500 different sources", I am calling you a liar. I'd be shocked if you read more than 10. You talk about Gaza - despite repeated abuse Israel allows goods and cash to flow into Gaza. Israel's power station in Ashkelon - often a target of Gazan rockets - supplies the vast majority of Gazan electricity. I challenge you to name a single other country that supplies goods, food and aid to a country that is actively attacking it at the same time, supported by the entire population. Unlike the majority of people on this talkback, I consider attacks by ignorant fools like you to be a compliment. You clearly think Israel's behaviour is so spotless and blameless that you have to make up claims in order to attack it. Or do you think repeating "apartheid, apartheid, apartheid", whenever someone contradicts you with pesky facts is an "argument"?
81. At Least Some in England Still Have Moral Values
Johan Odin ,   Oslo, Norway   (02.18.08)
Israel, even as hard as those in these forums try to deny it, deserves to be boycotted by all peace loving and law abiding nations for their racist ideology and criminal attempts to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Desperate Israelis will try to argue that here are other regimes that also should be boycotted, and I agree that there are others whose actions are no less despicable than those of Israelis and should similarly be punished for their actions, but that does not lesson the need to boycott Israel one bit. And in regards to the argument that the World will suffer some great loss if Israeli goods are banned from sale, I'm sure that the World can find other sources for anything Israel provides without suffering nearly as much as Israelis will for failing to heed the warnings from the World's citizens that their actions must change. Israeli's must face the reality that they can no longer hide their crimes from the World, and if they continue on their current path, they will suffer dearly in the end.
82. #81, is this what counts as an "argument"?
Danny   (02.18.08)
I am glad you think that killing quarter of a million people is "no less dispicable" than the Israelis who have killed 4,300 people in a longer period - most of whom where "actively engaged in hostilities when killed". I am going to go further than you and say not only is Israel not in the same league as the other regimes but can stand comparison with any other regime facing similar threats. I made the comparison with England, that there are more arabs in senior positions in Israel as a relative percentage than there are ethnic minorities in England yet no one seriously claims England is an "apartheid" state. As for your nonsense about "attempted ethnic cleansing", in the last ten years the number of Palestinians has gone up by 30%. Usually even the most incompetent ethnic cleanser at least keeps the "ethnically cleansed" population constant if not down. Again one wonders why you feel the need to lie when you believe - no, KNOW - Israel is "racist" and "criminal".
83. #81
israeli ,   israel   (02.18.08)
first boycott, then find alternative sources. And please stop stending your smelly salmon to Israel. It is tainted with whale blood. Believe you me, we are not desperate, as no-one here is asking for you not to boycott, or asking for mercy. It is you "citizens of the World" who feel entitled to visit this Zionist website and bash us. Go away! If we want to know what you think we'll start monitoring your sites. Thanks in advance.
84. LSESU - Jewish Society response to the motion
Ben Freedman ,   London, UK   (02.18.08)
To claim that there has been any real debate in the LSE student union on the Middle East is simply a fallacy. No such debate has ever occurred, certainly not in the past year. What there has been instead is continuous abuse of the Union General Meetings in which members of the Palestinian Society have proposed provocative and divisive motions which give, to say the very least, a factually incomplete picture of the situation in the Middle East focusing exclusively on the wrongdoings of Israel. These motions along with the barrage of propaganda that is displayed all over LSE’s campus, seeks primarily to demonise the State of Israel and Zionist ideology. The motions and the general atmosphere that comes with them certainly alienates the Jewish and pro-Israel students. Having successfully defeated a motion on the grounds of its bias and discriminatory nature, a mere three weeks later, the exact same motion (with only a few subtle changes) appeared once again still demonising Israel and Zionism and calling for divestment. What had become clear was that UGMs had become more a forum for Israel-bashing rather than any other constructive purpose. After much deliberation, the Israel & Jewish Societies decided that it was not in our interest to participate in such Israel-bashing rituals. It being Rag week (a week in which Student societies raise money for charity) the same week as the second motion, we decided to devote our energies into raising money for “Save a child’s Heart” (SACH) which brings Israeli and Palestinian doctors together to provide medical treatment to children in less developed countries with heart disease. Throughout the week members of the Jewish and Israel societies took time out of their schedules to man a stall selling cakes (which students themselves had baked) for charity. Our motto was “Don’t Divest…Invest” hoping to show that there are more constructive Israel-Palestine related projects that students can invest their time and energies in, which can bring people together rather than unreservedly criticising one side. At the same time that the Palestinian society were celebrating their self proclaimed victory in a UGM in which virtually no one from the Israel and Jewish Societies bothered to attend, our campaign had raised over £1100 for SACH. The school has already sent out emails to students distancing itself from the UGM vote, and we hope that it will continue to maintain a neutral stance on political issues and devote its resources to furthering student welfare. It is almost ironic that the greatest effect of the Palestinian Society’s divisive motions has been to energise the Jewish and Israel societies with a positive spirit. I hope that such positive spirits continue and can invigorate Jewish life on campus throughout London. Ben Freedman Chair of LSESU Jewish Society
85. Emiliano Huet-Vaughn of ISM pushed this through for PLO
Lee Kaplan ,   Berkeley,CA   (02.18.08)
This boycott bill was pushed through by Emiliano Huet-Vaughan, an ISM activist who was working on behalf of the PLO. For more information on Emilaino, read my article The ISM-Terror Connection at Front Page Magazine. Emiliano has been functioning as a paid operative for the ISM to push these things through.
86. Leonarisso. Where are the facts?
Ruben Misrahi ,   Beachwood, OH   (02.19.08)
No matter how well you write. Facts are what's important. Here are some for you: Some facts: - A UN resolution partitioned Palestine into Israel and Palestine in 1948. Jews accepted it, Arabs didn't. - Israel was attacked in 1948 with the clear intention to "drive the Jews to the sea." Israel won its war of independence and Transjordan took over the West Bank, becoming Jordan. There were no complains because Jordan was widely thought as Palestinian land. - Egypt attacked Israel in 1956 and closed the Suez canal. Israel, France and England responded and occupied Sinai. Israel was forced to give back the Sinai. - Israel was attacked in 1967. Surprisingly, Israel won and took over the Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank. - Israel was attacked again in 1973. Israel re-occupied the Sinai and "the other side of Suez." - 1979: Israel gave back the Sinai in exchange for... PEACE, nothing else. - 1970: Terrorists incursions from Jordan forces Israel to retaliate against Jordan (where Palestinians are majority to this day). - King Hussein drove out terrorists in what resulted in Black September. - These terrorists went to Lebanon and began its destruction and incursion attacks to Israel. - This created an impossible situation and Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. - Israel gave back northern Lebanon expecting peace. A few years after that, Hizbullah terrorists attacked Israel. Israel retaliated. The figures on civilian vs soldiers is clouded because not all Hizbullah militants wear uniforms. - Israel gave back Gaza, making over 8,000 of its own people refugees that to this date suffer. In exchange, Hamas intensified its rocket attacks, which have not caused many deaths (just as rockets fired from Tijuana to San Diego may not kill many people, but will surely affect San Diegoans more than heavy traffic). - There is no historic precedent where a victorious country gives territorial concession to the attacker, particularly if the attacker has not changed its agenda. - Palestinians teach their children that Israel doesn't exist (see their maps). - 1993: The Oslo process. Israel enter negotiations with Palestinians to create a Palestinian state. In the process, Israel cedes administration of 90% of the Palestinian population to the Palestinian Authority. Palestinians don't agreed to concessions (97% of their territory) and respond with an Intifada that killed over 1,000 Israeli civilians and almost 10,000 Palestinians. - The UN resolution 247 states: "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" "The territories occupied..." was intentionally changes by "territories occupied..." - Israel has been attacked by over 1,000 suicide bombers who target "as many Jews" as they can kill. Israel didn't build a fence in a vacuum. - There is no historic precedent where descendants of refugees are given the status of refugees as well, except Palestinians. - Palestinians are the only ones that were given refugee status by the UN if they could claim having lived 2 years (yes 2 years) in Palestine. So, to equate South Africa with Israel, you better back your comments with some facts. Not babble. Any more facts anyone?
87. #86 not to be pedantic
Danny   (02.19.08)
Egypt didn't attack Israel in 1956, Israel attacked Egypt - they sent waves and waves of fedayeen into Israel for over four years. The Suez canal was never open to Israel until 1980 when the peace deal went through. in 1973, Israel already occupied the Sinai, the egyptians managed to conquer a tiny strip of sinai and we had them completely cut off. apart from that...
88. Kaplan's article is lies (and poor journalism)
Sal ,   London   (02.19.08)
Lee Kaplan's article is a joke. I know the guy he mentions, Emiliano, and he's certainly not working for the PLO or paid by anyone, as Kaplan alleges. Kaplan's article alleges he was in Israel and Palestine recruiting terrorists and suggests there is some photographic evidence of him running around with guns. But then he conveniently leaves out the smoking gun photo. Anyone who thinks Kaplan is a journalist is sorely mistaken. The real issue is not personal identities, but the content of the motion, which focuses on the human rights record of Israel, of which there is little debate.
89. sense of perspective?
Carl G ,   Ithaca, US   (02.20.08)
Those accepting a narrative that portrays Palestinians as irrationally hostile and hell-bent on a total destruction of Israel and Israel as the victim in this conflict seem to lack a solid knowledge of the history of the conflict or of recent current events. From the start of the second intifada through January, 2008, Palestinian deaths outnumbered Israeli deaths (including soldiers) by more than four to one, according to B'Tselem. And while being under rocket fire is clearly undesirable, it is difficult to see any motivation at all other than simple racism for the exclusive focus on Sderot and other targets of the Qassams at the expense of any attention to the situation in Gaza, where hostile fire - missles, helicopters, shells - are part of daily life, and where more civilians are killed by the Israelis in the average week than Israel has lost to Qassams over the past six years. And the placing the blame on the Palestinians for the situation in Gaza because they elected Hamas (in an internationally recognized democratic election) is disingenuous, ignorant, or simply dishonest. A main reason for the rise of political Islam in the region is the vicious suppression by Israel of all secular alternatives over the past four decades. Hamas was tolerated (a la the Taliban) because they represented an alternative to the PLO, which was then the main voice of resistance in Palestine; during the sixties and seventies the resistance, in the form of Fateh, and the PFLP (George Habash, anybody?) was secular, either nationalist or internationalist/Marxist. Decades of assassinations, unwarranted arrests, and other persecutions have taken their toll, ecce Hamas. These are some things that are best kept in mind if one is to reach an understanding of the situation past the old colonial canards that insist that they hate us because that's simply in their nature, and some solution past the cryptofascist platitudes about standing firm, keeping order, and acceptable losses.
90. LSE kids demand Torah
sarai ,   US   (02.24.08)
These kids are reminding us of our Torah: "Love the Stranger" over 30 times. These comments make me sad. You have all forgotten Yeshiyahu Leibovitz, Abraham Joshua Heschel: have we lost them?
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