I did not witness so much secular intolerance in acts but rather only in words on the contrary of haredi's. And secular jews don't preach haredim to give up their way of life. Nothing will happen by force but only by axample and understanding.

The charideem have no right what so ever to come in to a secular neighborhood and start dictating to people how to live their lives. First they start with the supermarkets , then closing roads, schools etc and cause trouble and violence. Whats next the Charidie modesty squad in Tel Aviv. Send them to Bneil Brak where they belong and stay out of Tel Aviv. We dont need this filth corrupting our youth.

Starts with Tiv Tam whats next? modesty squads attacking women on buses burning tires Vandalizing shops attacking restaurants Closing roads on shabbat The Friday night shabbat patrol Sorry but if these religious fanatics can not behave like human beings they do not belong in Tel Aviv which is the free secular capital of Tel Aviv.

It's hard to respect people who don;t pull their weight in the military or economy. On the other hand, it's hard to respect people who give the ancient Romans a good run for their money when it comes to hedonism. Somewhere in the middle are most Jews who are not extreme and would just like to live peaceful Jewish lives as they understand that to be. Majority rule with resonable minority rights would go a long way to solve the problem IF you could get the minorites to except that. Do fanatics really deserve extra rights that infringe on the majority, or do they need to make their own accomodations?

As a Jerusalemite I can tell you that here it is the seculars with out back against the wall. All the pressure felt by the haredim in TLV is felt by seculars here. And while not judging a whole group it is not the seculars who are violent. The haredim here are beating each other up over the elections. They deface bus stops that have pictures of women, even just the face of a woman. Their protests usually include vilence. They thorw rocks at other Jews on Shabbat no less. And worst they don't serve in the army or in any otherway and contribute vastly to poverty and poor education. But the seculars don't attack them!

You're just a bigot. I really couldn't care less what you say or what you think about me. And because mine and Sagi's views are different to yours, it pisses you off. You don't have an open mind; you are narrow minded and shallow, and are probably intimidated easily. Which is why you get so pissed off at talkbacks that you don’t agree with. How sad you are. Get a grip you Idiot and lighten up.

Jealous of what, you Twit. God you are so stupid - if you can't think of anything remotely intelligent to say, keep quiet. You're just an ignorant annoyance.

lets force religion on other people who do not believe and who do not live by the rules of the Torah. Its a persons choice if her or she wants to believe or not, and not a matter of changing the law to enforce religion on others.

Ever since I moved to Israel it has been shown over and over how secular Israelis prized concept of pluralism does not include Jews who choose to be "overly observant". The seculars gather under the banner to fight religious coersion and gleefully go out charedi bashing. Seculars hate charedim more than they hate arabs. And afford them fewer freedoms. How many supermarkets in arab villages sell pork, and no secular screams foul. How many loud speakers scream out at mincha, but no secular asks the moslems to turn down their volume. An arab can go to any spot holy to other religions in Israel yet many of the major sites holy to Jews are closed to us. Moslems don't serve in the IDF and no secular blames them like they blame the charedim (who are doing more army than seculars from TA). I get disrespected in Israel for being orthodox in ways that would start a lawsuit in America. Seculars have been brainwashed through the generations and now have an unreasoning hatred for their own. In five years there will be a religious majority. What then?

My mind is open, open wide, but I won't let the Haredi and their nonsense invade it, thank you. I prefer to remain normal.

As in so many areas, education is key. Tolerance, respect and dignity are different words because they have different meanings; all of which are being muddled by tb-ers. No self-respecting person considers respect from others relevant. In fact, respect from those of whom one disapproves, especially from those who are unethical, demonstrates acquiescence to PC; i.e., the failure to stand up for one's principles. So disrespect from one's adversaries reinforces the adversarial differences. I'm equally rewarded by disrespect (slander, lies and ad hominems, circulating virus-infected emails in my name, listing me as a spammer and our website as a porn website) from my adversaries as I am by respect from those who agree with me. One is defined by his or her adversaries as well as his or her friends. Tolerance and dignity are a different matter altogether. Religious differences are intellectual differences, and intellectual differences are won and lost in the intellectual realm, not by means of violence -- verbal or physical. An intelligent and educated person of honor, principle and integrity stands up for one's principles, disapprove of one's adversary--intensely--while remaining true to the principles of honor, integrity, personal responsibility -- as well as to tolerance and honoring the dignity of one's adversary. Facts are facts and the chips should fall where they may. Respect isn't even desirable from an adversary. But every human being should be treated with the honor and dignity of sticking to truth and facts, not descending to slander, lies, ad hominems or unethical tactics, and never swerving from tolerance of the Creator-given free will of one's adversaries to continue in what we regard as a wrong path. If we cannot win in the intellectual realm, then we must not resort to unethical tactics. The key word is tolerance, not respect. And dignity. Self-dignity, self-respect, the old-fashioned values of honor and principle -- and integrity. Even one's adversary should be treated with the dignity of adhering meticulously to truth, fact and documentation; NEVER resorting to lies, slander, ad hominem and unethical (sometimes illegal) practices. Ynet could go a long way to advancing the dialogue by requiring the gutter-tripe to come out from under the rocks and out of the gutters to identify themselves; login and display full name and city for every message. Discussions would be a lot more considered and civil if the poster was identifiable to face criminal prosecution for slander. But Ynet accrues publicity and hoards of perverse readers for their paying ads -- attracted to the free-for-all gutter fighting. It comes down to the money. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai) Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Do you work? Did you serve in the IDF? Do you have more than 2 chldren? Can you support those children without taking money from the State? Do you swing a live chicken around your head on Rosh HaShana? Do you force your wife to sit at the back of a bus? Do you force your views on anyone who'll listen (I think yes, according to your original tb)

Knowing nr 39 Adam very well you just proved how brainwashed and full of hatred you are. He was a combat medic in the IDF for 3 years and did his reserve duty for many years, he works, they own a car and they do not swing chickens around their head. Like he wrote , the secular here are a bunch of racists who hate everything that does not fit their liberal religion. By your writing one can see how effective incitement and demonizing by the media are.

Your definition of democracy is that everyone has a right to same opinion as your own...

They opened the pork-chain in their neighbourhood. First of all - do they claim that to be their exclusive neighbourghood? Last I checked, Israel is secular country, which means that "church" (synagogue) has no right to mendle in the affairs of state nor to IMPOSE (can influence, but cannot insist) its views on the society. In secular country the neighbourhood is MIXED, which means that, by definition, you can have on one floor an orthodox Jew, on second orthodox Muslim, on third secular atheist and on third orthodox christian and ALL of them SUPERCEDE their "religious" laws over secular laws. Therefore: that store had every right, legal and moral, to be there. And to sell pork. What is the crucial difference between seculars and haredi? It's not the DESIRE that the other side relinguish its ways - haredi wants seculars to stop being that, seculars vice versa, all true. It's not the "that dirty others" attitude. It's that haredi wants to dictate what you will do in your house and what you will do in your bed with your life, how and what you eat. They are asured they go to olam haba (I am not sure at all they are) and want to IMPOSE the same on seculars. Seculars, on the other side, do not want to impose what haredi do within their house walls - they can eat super-glatt kosher, a chicken never even looked upon by anybody other than haredi or whatever. So, yes, seculars ARE more tolerant to haredi: they just uphold the secular character of the Israel and secular laws. It is haredi that have control freak problem! Even in galut where I live...

Sharona, you (and others with sweeping generalizations) need to back up your assertions with facts or withdraw them. 1)Do ordinary "seculars" have fistfights and riots? Well no except maybe a few outside a bar, but left liberal activists certainly do. And they go into other peoples' neighborhoods. And they even import people from other countries to stir up trouble. Do Haredim do that? 2)If in fact you have seen or know of Haredim who throw rocks on Shabbat, these people are violating the Torah in three different serious ways and thus not representative of the mainstream of Haredim. 3)I haven't seen a lot of defaced bus stops--where are they? I am amazed at the ridiculousness of Americans who post: every neighborhood in America makes noises when they don't have things their way--why should the Haredim in Israel be any different?--but I am ashamed of those Jews who live here and don't even find out for themselves what Haredim really do and practice before mouthing a lot of mindless responses. Modern Israel is a state founded by Jews who have a common 3500+ year religious, property, and life history. It was founded on land that we (some of us)have lived on and/or treasured for 3500+ years. It was founded by both religious and secular people and on both religious and secular principles. Logic suggests that most Haredim do not come here to live off the government dole because at least the American ones would do a lot better on the American dole. Probably ditto a lot of European countries. Get a grip, people!

It's all a question of choice. Nobody forces anybody to shop on Shsbbat or to buy kosher or non kosher products. We have a Tiv Taam in Ra'anana. We don't shop there, but others have the right to spend their money where snd on what they like. The Haredim should just ignore it, in the same way as us secular Jews try to ignore their 17th Century clothing. That's their choice.

You're absolutely right. The price of religious freedom is religious tolerance. The seculars whine and cry but won't pay the price of tolerance for their own religious or non-religious positions. Great article.

I smell guilt and jealousy in your extremely bitchy attitude. Seems to me you ought to get life or a regular partner wih a strap on to release some tension.

I was an idealistic young Jew with thoughts of making Aliyah when I first visited Eretz Yisrael. My shock upon seeing the bigotry of the fanatical extremest Haredi and other fundamentalists sickened me. MY treatment as a Reformed Jew by the Orthodox and Haredi was worse than ANY treatment I've receive from Christians in the states. Until TRUE democracy comes to Israel, it's not living up to the ideals of the secular Zionists who died to found the nation.

The fact that pork is sold across the street may be an annoyance, but does not directly affect them. They have the option of not buying at that supermarket. If the smell of pork reached their houses that would be a different story, just as noise and pollution are legitimate complaints, but what bothers them is the mere presence of pork. Tough luck, the discomfort of this knowledge is something they will have to endure. Next the knowledge that their neighbours are homosexual will upset them and should the court then relocate homosexuals? If this is the case then I'd like to report old people in my building. They walk so slowly down the stairs. It's quite a nuisance, the government should do something about it.

It bothers me that I cannot get married to whomever I like, and in the manner of my choosing, being forced to marry within "my" faith, which is in fact not my faith, and through a monopolised institution, clearly an abomination by democratic standards. I don't see why the rabbinate should be involved in the union between two secular people. It bothers Haredim that I can go to a supermarket near my place of residence and purchase a legal product that they themselves would not. I don't see how they are involved when there is at least one wall separating them from the transaction. Poor Haredim, what terrible conditions they endure. Maybe if more of them served in the military they wouldn't complain so much about poor conditions. If you thought pork behind a concrete wall tasted bad, try "luf".

well dear: you can continue to practice your religeous beliefs regardless of who's selling what to whom. If the Big- Invisible -Daddy in the Sky wants the pork-shop closed ,He's certainly well-equipped to deal with it Himself. -Air-pollution on the other hand........well ,you sure can smell the difference yourself, can't you?

Secular fanaticism is just as fanatical as any other kind of fanaitcism. Israel today is definately under the onslought of SECULAR FANATICISM. To all you secular fanatics I have one thing to say: Please go back to Poland or Lithuania or Germany or the Pale of Settlement or even to Iran. Maybe those kind people will remind you how to be kind to your fellow Jews.

I am reading Tali Farkash' articles since the first ones. They are great! But, this one. Is she playing poor little lamb? We read one day yes, one day also about actions that haredi people are performing to hold control of secular areas, especially in Tel Aviv (what happened in the northern area? I am sure she remembers. It was not long ago). So please, to claime against others you must have clean hands. Always. Don't forget what a jew said more than thousand years ago about throwing stones. By the way, I get crazy when somebody desecrates Jewish tombstones or Synagogues. What about the same actions against arab cemeteries or mosques, for instance yesterday in Hebron. What moral values are we entitled with to claim? And if somebody sells pork in a haredi neighbourhood, there is one solution, don't buy there. They are going to be forced to close.

on just about every point you lament, you are hypocritically guilty. physician heal thyself first, then maybe your words will not be a mockery.

btween the secula and haredi is a simple one. The seculars believe that they don't know all the answers and prefer to think for themselves.They believe, for the most part, that God gave them a brain and probably expects them to use it. Therefore, they realize that secular law, albeit imperfect with various compromises, and toleration is the best course for humans to live with one another. The religious, on the other hand, do not wish to think for themselves but instead adopt a groupthink led by religious leaders. Because they know what God wants they are intolerant and not amenable to compromise. When was the last time you heard a secular beating up a woman on a bus because they didn't approve of her choice of seating?

Tell me Tali, who holds the reigns of all the aspects of a man's personal life in this country? Who decides who /where one should marry, or where/how should be burried? When those will be true personal choises of each individual we might re-opne this discussion. Tolerance is about respectiong the other's choises. They have a choise not to enter and not to buy in that store, as they do many times daily in restaurants or even other supermarkets deemed more or less kosher.

The TA residents would scream all sorts of abuse. Here in Modiin children in a school started to put on Tefilin in a quiet part of the school - and were stopped.... too religious for the school. The seculars are so insecure and they show it thru gross intolerance.