Israel remains quiet when Arabs do this to Israel and the United Nations. Some Arab "refugees" have 10 or more identity cards each. Each allowing benefits and a swelling of the so called "refugee" population. Who chooses to report on the limited and not yet proven problem of Jews fudging numbers, while Arab corruption is not spoken of?

don't tell me they r innocents.

before adressing others, but don't worry the Arab population will be next to be audit.

same method, they also don't serve the IDF and don't pay taxes, and abuse your taxes to support their 6 or so children, the same method no exceptions.

One, this is indeed theft. The schools may have budget issues (pretty much all ultra-Orthodox schools have budget issues), but that is absolutely no justification to lie or falsify documents to receive further state funds. Anyone doing this should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Two, I don't see why the Eda Haredit is even brought up beyond a one-line mention. Yes, it's the names of their children who are being added to the roster, but it's not their doing. They don't receive state funds at all, and are little more than a source of children's names in this context. If anything, they're one of the victims in this case, as they've been dragged into this matter through no action of their own. Their inaction toward ending this matter and clearing up any further unknown details, though, is abhorrent. This is a crime, not a political matter. One can cooperate on this matter without losing face or abandoning ideological stances. That the Eda chooses to shove its head in the sand yet again may backfire in the end. Three, this situation has a background, one where municipal councils, the Ministry of Education, and the Ministry of the Treasury actively sabotage any funding to which the Recognized Unofficial Institution schools in this country are legally eligible. Or at least, this is the case with Haredi schools in this category. Ort and Amal do not suffer from any such constraints, nor do the more elitist Democratic Schools, so it is seems to be largely an ideological affair. This creates an impossible situation, in which a law-abiding Haredi school will rarely, if ever, get the funding to which it is legally eligible. Most complement these holes in the budget with donations, or worse still... abandon school trips, feeding programs or even some subjects, being unable to fund them. Some school principals have turned to crime to boost the budget. It's not a new development, sadly, and I wholeheartedly support legal means above all else, but it's an impossible situation nonetheless. Take the purely legal path, and kids study less, lose a meal, and rarely, if ever, go on trips. This is not the way it should be.

With her "religiosity" , and this of this bunnie , as an example ? Let's have a laugh . I would be ashamed to be as she is . And for the Kedoshim , this name is given to those who died during the Shoa , again your ignorance

Charidim take money from the State , but not all . The netoure karta don't take

and i hope you will be the first to stop the hateful and/or racist bile you tend to spew. you know, 'kedosh', as you say.

Roman,generally speaking,not only in this type of school' cases(that are already very well known that they happen ,in a cynic manner,because the Haredim-generaly speaking-really don't care about the rest of us or even don't consider us proper Jews),not only in these cases but in general, it is not fair what has been happening in Israel related to Haredim. It is anormal that they don't go to the Army.There is no such an aberration in any part of the world ,and justly in Israel should that happen? Justly in Israel should we sacrifice other souls to work as slaves for us,while some live in the bless of studying Torah and nothing else?-If the indeed study,what I doubt,because they dont act as a Jew is supposed to. Aren't we supposed to be a light into nations?What kind of light have we been by acting with such injustice against our own -the non Haredim? Where is it written in Torah that men in shape should not be elected to fight? It is just the opposite what is written in Torah(I do not recall the chapter,but it is there as a law). So why such a revolting cynism should happen in Israel?Such a mockery? This is an ugly mentality that must be uprooted.It is not compatible with our reality and with nothing righteous.It is abhorrent! The Haredim in power should spend their time thinking on how to educate jewishly all Israel ,with Justice and Truthfulness,and not only their compeers in black who resemble more a mafia then properly Jews.

kedoshim simply means 'holy ones'. It is traditionally used for those murdered by goyim for being Jews, such as the victims of the holocaust. But that is not its sole meaning, nor its original meaning. Keren was using it in its original meaning, and you are wrong to have picked her up on it. BTW I didn't understand a word of what Keren wrote - either she is not fluent in English or can't express herself or was smoking something really good - I don't know, but she certainly doesn't make sense.

You have just explained in the first part of your talkback what I meant !

I know exactly what "kedoshim" means . Do you know ordinary believing Jews you can call "Kadosh" ? No there are not , so it's the "Kedoshim" meaning as in the "el Male rachasmim" . In a Jewish cemetery , abroad , there is a place reserved for those true Kedoshim . Her knowledge of Judaism and Israel is very poor , she has proved it already more than once .

You Charles should be ashamed of your English, instead of cirticizing the written English of others on this forum . You make loads of spelling mistakes & most of the time your posts are incoherent.

I criticise what is written , not how it is written . My English ? not ashamed at all of it , it's only my third tongue , Hebrew # 4 . Your corrections are welcome . Incoherent ? You don't even know the difference between criticising what is written and how it is done .

So because they are'nt treated in the same way as the others [ your claim , without any proof , as always ] they may steal ! "nice" mentality .

those who are affiliated with the eidah charedis don't take this money at all so the money drying up has nothing to do with them either

they should review this mitzvah

If you find comfort and reassurance in reading only the very last part of it, and then attacking it while ignoring the rest, that is your concern. I won't bother with it - you have built your strawman, after all. I'll leave you to beating it. As for not basing my information on facts, perhaps you should read more newspapers and listen to the news more often. After all, the matter of Haredi school budgets is a matter that crops up quite often in our merry little country, often with regards how much money the Haredim don't deserve from the public pot. The matter of feeding programs is also of particular note - for years Haredim were actively excluded from them, and Yuli Tamir had to be politically forced into adding the Haredi schools into consideration. And now that 50% is given by the Ministry of Education and 50% is up to the Municipality, my little brother has food at school precisely half of the week! You see, our mother decided to put him in an ultra-Orthodox school. Isn't that swell, Charles? And in Jerusalem, Haredi schools lose the funding to pay basic bills every time the Legal Advisor of the municipality has a new whim. Isn't it swell, that kids study in freezing cold? And isn't it swell that we had to teach my little brother mathematics at home for two years, because there wasn't enough budget for more teachers at the school. The Ministry of Education and local municipal councils have, for years, thrown responsibility from one to the other about who is responsible for which aspect of the Recognized And Unofficial schools, which was what the Nahari Law was all about, clearly stating the local municipal councils were required to give such schools at least 75% of what regular schools receive. Of course, here's the fun part. The Nahari Law was meant to clear matters up, finally setting a structured legal framework (which didn't even exist until then! It was mostly organized chaos and political deals until then) as to what Recognized yet Unofficial schools were meant to receive. Instead, a legal appeal made sure that the schools received no funding whatsoever from municipal councils for a long time, thanks once again to bureaucratic matters. http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.panim.org.il/text/chinuch-haredy.pdf A report of matters two years ago. Basic matters like the (planned, mostly, rather than implemented) construction of new classes, the non-existed municipal funding, and so on... And that was a relatively good time, at that. It's a reality, one that has existed for a long time. It's common knowledge among Haredim, who experience it firsthand, and whose politicians constantly fight losing battles about. Perhaps it's time you tried talking to some Haredim, Charles, rather than merely talking about them?

I am not familiar with this general approach of Haredim toward non-Haredim. I am familiar with insular communities, yes. I am also familiar with some people, among Haredim, who hold a sense of elitism. I have met that sense of elitism far more often among secular, largely Atheist, members of the left. To them I was a primitive, with the mindset of the middle-ages, and best kept away from polite society so that I shouldn't influence politics or day to day life in the "wrong" way. And speaking of the army, I have yet to hear of a country that accepted that religion is a valid part of human life and society that *didn't* exclude those taking up religious studies from military service. The only difference is that, overall, it was never a central part of a entire community. And yet, the US military correctly decided that conscripting ultra-Orthodox Jews in the US, be it in WWII or during Vietnam, would be too difficult. Ultra-Orthodox Jews are difficult to integrate, and that's something the IDF also understands very well. Which is why it pretended the issue didn't exist for years. It would be too expensive, too time-consuming to properly prepare for a large influx of Haredi recruits. The army barely manages with the special programs it started opening in recent years, and in previous years it had a simple rule - the army molded the soldier, with little regard to the soldier's needs beyond the basics. That approach is changing as more and more higher-ups in the army are realizing that expecting Haredim to compromise on basic beliefs isn't going to happen, and it is much better to accommodate to their needs. It's working, albeit slowly, with IDF mismanagement and bureaucracy getting in the way. I should know, Keren, I'm one of the people who is helping those new ultra-Orthodox recruits. The vast majority of them come after Yeshiva study, having went through specialized technological courses before enlisting into their units. And it's not easy for them. They made their choices, and largely those choices didn't even exist three years ago. Change comes slowly, though, be it to ultra-Orthodox or secular society. The former is unwilling to compromise on basic matters of religious life and belief, and the latter don't really understand such matters or think little of them. There's no shared language in such a reality, and that's how we got to where we are today.

So better working in a shared language among we all. I will tell something:I love studying Torah;studying Torah is almost the air I breath,but ,definitively,the orthodox world is a difficult world to get in.I t is a world too tied in their formality, which is used maybe to protect Torah itself ,but it turns into something very unfair to the majority of Jews and I am sure that that must be changed.Torah belongs to all of us. I wish for the day all Israel,men and women will be able to study Torah,all of us,and I believe this is the just way to think and the just way things should happen. This blessing can not be granted only to Haredim. Those who are not Haredim(at least not yet, if that would be the case)should feel more at easy to get hold in their own treasure which is our Torah. That's positively my feeling.

But using it for personal use is. Those people live below powerty levels thanks for caring people with comments above, who know nothing but hate for jews.

So better working in a shared language among we all. I will tell something:I love studying Torah;studying Torah is almost the air I breath,but ,definitively,the orthodox world is a difficult world to get in.I t is a world too tied in their formality, which is used maybe to protect Torah itself ,but it turns into something very unfair to the majority of Jews and I am sure that that must be changed.Torah belongs to all of us. I wish for the day all Israel,men and women will be able to study Torah,all of us,and I believe this is the just way to think and the just way things should happen. This blessing can not be granted only to Haredim. Those who are not Haredim should feel more at easy to get hold in their own treasure which is our Torah. That's positively my feeling.

I too , as you did more than once , can read only a part of what you wrote , or distord it , or answer beside the question . As for your little brother you can send him to a State School . I gave my daughters , as i wrote already , a 15 year long Jewish education abroad . Expensive , but it was MY choice , so i had'nt to complain . You choose the ultra Orthodox , don't complain .

The only benefit I got from it was in the quality of schooling in terms of accurate sciences - I took extra classes in mathematics and computers. I also got to see drug abuse, at the Yohana Jabotinsky Youth Village, which is considered a pretty good school overall. Now I look around me, and I see state schools now have police and metal detectors. Yes, quite the improvement. My mother decided that my brother was better off in a school where such matters as the above were not the norm, and where anti-religious sentiments weren't the norm as well. What he lacks in mathematics and other secular fields he can study at home, if and when the current school is found lacking. These are matters one *can* learn in such a way, whereas some matters he would've learned in state schools would have to involve tedious *unlearning*. But I see you yet again focus on the tafel and ignore the ikar, though. You seem little concerned by the lack of basic equality or consideration for children. I'd find that surprising, but then again, I've been reading your comments for a while now. And another thing, Charles - the ultra-Orthodox schools are more expensive by far than state schools. It may have something to do that, at the best of times, they receive no more than 3/4 of the funding state schools get. The norm is much, much less. My parents went for quality as well.

schools be State funded at all ? There is the "mamlachti dati" . If this is not "enough" for some , they have to pay .

schools that follow the State program . The ultra orthodox have a lack in maths because they spend too much on religious fields .

you wrote . That's true . On the other side , some people protested that companies don't want to hire those same charidim . So the IDF says it's very difficult , but for companies it should be possible ?

Thanks for your advice. Although living in LA i think you seem to be somewhat miss in formed. First of all these people contribute nothing to the system so therefore they deserve nothing. They are funded by tax money funded by those nasty seculars. secondly they are not teaching basic skills that would be needed to become a productive member of society. Not that the education system in Israel is any of your bussiness .

How strange you still havent answered the question as to where you live? i wonder why? Hate to break it to you but Arabs that work do pay tax and contribute to the system unlike the freeloading charadi parasites, so learn to thing before you open your big mouth.