Now we can confirm what we suspected how these extreme ultra orthodox cults from the medieval era survive without working. This cult is no different to any crime organization that hides behind religious beliefs and rips off from the rest of the community.

And anyone who doesn't send his kids to state schools should be forced to fund those who do send their kids to state schools? And anyone who wants to educate his kids should send his children to the state's criminal mismanagement, and have little to no control of what his children learn in the school? The Recognized yet Unofficial branches of education in Israel abide by the legal requirements set before them to receive partial funding from the state, which includes most of the core studies regular schools have. This gives people an alternative path to educating their children, separate of the two political branches that received official recognition in 1953 - Mapai's (secular, liberal, socialist, the cornerstone of the general education system today) and the Mizrahi's (National Religious). This covers some ultra-Orthodox schools, the Amal schools, the Ort schools, Democratic Schools, many Israeli Arab schools, and some others. These are *not* mere private schools - they are schools outside of the state's direct management, but which suit its basic standards. This is why they get (or should get) official partial funding, as set by the law. It is not a matter of it being "enough" or not. it is simply that not everyone is of the "secular" or "national religious" category in this country, and not everyone is willing to put his children into the state's active mismanagement. Private schools exist, Haredi included. These receive little, if any official funding. These are not the schools we are talking about here.

The army is a central part of a soldier's life - on par, if not sometimes more, than his immediate family. The army feeds you, clothes you, molds you to its purposes and controls almost every aspect of your life. It defines where you sleep, what you eat, and what you do 24/7. Even so-called "jobniks", soldiers who don't serve in a combat or immediate combat support capacity, aren't even remotely close to civilian jobs. Most of the problems a young religious soldier faces don't exist outside the army. You're not forced to eat in a shared mess hall which often has questionable Kashrut standards, or which simply ones that are less than your own. You don't live beside, train with, and work out beside women, a problem for most male religious Jews, not just Haredim. Your prayers, your observance of Shabbat and holidays and so on, are not defined by the whim of your immediate commander, regardless of what military law might say on the matter - it also says that you obey first and complain later, regardless of the circumstances, save when you're given a direct order to deliberately kill a civilian. And of course, they don't give you a paycheck - they give you pocket money, 350 shiny New Israeli Shekels a month. None of the above applies to a job. Large firms that do have a dining room also tend to have better Kashrut standards than the army by a long shot. Still not pleased? Don't eat in the company, and you get the money you would have spent on the food back, which you can then spend wherever you want to eat. You don't live at the company, you just work at the company. And there's no problem with working beside women as the situations that exist in the army don't exist at work. Two completely different, completely separate issues, Charles. The army is *not* equivalent to a civilian job. Not even close.

It is better to be more flexible in order to adapt to others, and others to be more flexible to adapt to you. The Israel of today is not yet the messianic Israel ,and in order to get there religious should allow themselves to get a bit "impure"(well they are not that pure,are they?)in order to turn their non so religious fellows(not formally religious at least,but no less Jews)more pure. Proportion is needed in order to acquire Justice . Ahavat Israel is more important then 100% kashrut.At least for now

It is not kosher to cheat other Jews.Not kosher at all! It is enough that Israelis pay almost 50% of what they earn in taxes to sustain Israel;it is not just to squeeze them more in this ugly way! Take what the state gives to you honestly! There has no justification to falsely register students to get funds,being those Haredim or whatever schools.

In any place , civilian or army , and has nothing to do with the paycheck . No , not only state schools , but those who want money have to follow the state program , have to be checked . If they want to give supplementary lessons [ more Torah or so ] no problem , but not on state budget . The school has to look for private funding [ donations or parents ] Roman , and reading your posts makes me think that your State School was'nt so bad at all . You did'nt even loose your religiosity .

In the post where I detailed the issues an religious Jew faces in the military, I illustrated how any observant Jew would be required to compromise on matters of faith, some of them quite basic, if he were to serve in the military without the *military* changing to accommodate him. Such a problem does *not* exist in the civilian market, at least as long as we don't start forcing Jews to work on Shabbat and holidays en-masse. The army used to expect everyone to either bend or break to its wishes, with the least amount of expenditure on its end - they could have made changes to allow the more observant religious Jews to serve, they simply chose not to. It meant saving money. That attitude is changing now. The civilian market, though? Largely there's no problem to start with, as I've already described before. Frankly, you're just making excuses for bigotry here, attempting to justify the prevalent approach of not hiring Haredim who have both the desire and the skill to be respectably employed. As for my secular school, I became religious in spite of it, not because of it. We were still a largely secular family of once-Soviet Jews when we came to Israel, and discovered the Jewish faith here. Back in the USSR, such matters were banned outright.

And yet I fail to see why we should require all our religious Jewish populace to make double the sacrifice everyone else makes - we should not be required to compromise on basic matters of our faith, and the army has claimed for decades that it does not require us to do so. The reality, in contrast, was that it was not the case. Some are willing to make the extra effort - others demand that the state and military make true on its claims. If the military is an obligation rather than a choice, in *this* country of all others, then a religious Jew should not have to undergo such internal concerns and conflicts. And finally, after so many years, the army has started to correct its past mistakes. Had we all simply made the choice of serving (and suffering) in silence, nothing would have changed. The army is creating programs suitable for Haredi Jews because it finally decided that it wants them as they are, instead of forcing them to change their beliefs or making jump through extra hoops just to maintain Kashrut, Tzniut, and Shabbat.

I have what I think is a just idea for the army: -I think high standarts of Kashrut should be applied FOR ALL SOLDIERS -Shabbat should be respected as a principle and of course not in detriment of safety -Women should not serve the army where they serve today but only in social service -ALL MEN SHOULD GO TOGETHER TO ARMY!Haredi and not. The distinction between Haredim and not Haredim is ridicule and segregationist. Men are men.This denomination and the extra care for Haredim should not exist because it is RIDICULOUS!Men are men,there is no better man than other in Israel,and Haredim are not nursing babies.This distinction MUST end. Torah classes should be for all!Actually, Torah classes should be mandatory for all,at least Ethic of the Fathers,Mishlei,among other ethical teachings. And for women,just in case,skirt uniforms should be mandatory.Such decision will not be the end of the world for any more egocentric girl.

who have to adapt themselve ? I told you already that we had Belzer people working in our firm . As they NEEDED to work , they adapted themselve . There were also girls working there , gentiles , not always very "modestly" clothed . They ate their sandwishes in the same place where others ate their treif food . So they adapted themselve . BY NEED . Now i understand why you are so fanatically : a "baal tschuva" is often more fanatic , the same as an ex-smoker [ i am ] is more against smoking .

ALL MEN MUST GO TO THE ARMY! This matter should be demanded and decided imediately because Israel can not afford this kind of pampering to a sector of the society. Haredim MUST be obligated to serve and no special previleges should be granted for them anymore.Their demands and their fight must be FOR ALL ISRAEL.O r what they want serve for all or for nobody,this included specials allowences and everything! Concerning arabs leaving in Israel,they must serve also and swear loyalty to Israel,aand if they fail to do so there must be a mechanism in which they must go to live elsewhere.In Israel they must serve and must be trustful.

Torah classes should be mandatory fot all , you wrote . No this is not needed . Our children have to know the History of our people , yes , but not the tales surrounding this History . That's good for bigots . And the high Kashrut standards ? another stupidity . Kosher is Kosher , no need for "extra" kosher . That's only for the unnecessary people in this world , for the parasytes . Regarding Girls in the IDF . Girls were fighting in the Palmach , they contributed a lot to Israel's independance and proved to be as capable as men . And they were NOT religious at all . Religion is not needed in the 21st century .

What molds one’s life and one’s course of life is a philosophy or another,always. Actually,you are insisting in live under an unethical philosophy, erroneously shaped by men-not sublime nor divine-,which is called modernism,liberalism or even democracy,but they are ,nevertheless, attempts to mold the way of life of peoples. Jews should opt for they own knowledge and do not follow goyim philosophies,which are anyway-just for note- no more than a distorted copy of ethical judaism ,what is exactly what you propose . Besides you are hypocrit,since you stated that you educated your own daughters under a jewish education and a jewish education is a jewish education with all that implies,not what your brain of a "TRUE"jew wants to believe it is. You judaism is fruit of your own mind and it is not actual judaism.

The situation you describe is one almost all religious Jews, Haredi included, would live with without any undue concern. As I said quite clearly, a civilian business is not a real problem here. I thought I made that quite clear. The "compromise" the Belzer Hassid made when working in your firm was one most are willing to make, and do make constantly. The military is far more difficult, and involves a reality and situations that make religious concerns in civilian life pale in comparison. And furthermore - the army is not a choice, it as an obligation. Your Belzer Hassid *chose* to work at your firm, he wasn't forced into that particular job. Like Keren, I agree that all should serve, at least the men. But at the same time, the reality of the duty to serve being coupled with (for religious Jews) very difficult concerns and situations should not exist. As for my supposed Ba'al Tshuva fanaticism... amusing, most amusing. We had a very slow and gradual process of learning of the faith and taking on various limitations, and I approve of that path - it's those who rush headlong who end up being so fanatical that even the most conservative Haredi community thinks considers them too strict or weird. This particular kind of Ba'alei Tshuva either calms down after a few years, or burns out, leaving the religious life altogether.

But not to defend our country . And it was not a choice : they NEED to work for their livelihood , and they earned nice money there . Regarding your fanatism , you show it in many tb's . Allowing rights only for you , not for me .