BBSNews can I add you to the list of people here on this website who believe in the universal right for all people (eg: Palestinians and Jews) to national self-determination and independence?

you say that god said it is israil land but i prefer that you would say infront of god that it is israil land ,,,,, but obama is not god so you can not say that obama say it is the land of israil and you can not say it infront of obama that it is the land of israil ... i think you can lie about god but can not lie about obama .. so ..oh..oh..oh jews

to settle in their own historic country. Isn't this a form of racism: demanding of Jews because of their Jewishness not to live in parts of their ancestral homeland?

Catholic, having raised and educated by the Church in the United States. So much for the saying "I am not an American settler", or perhaps he should be addressed as a German settler on an American soil?

argument, the discussion and diverting it to a different subject. This way he frees himself of the need to respond logically to people's observations about him and his views. I agree with you and with so many of other posters, by the way, that he is probably an anti-semite who can't get enough of insulting Jews and their way of life, Israel being one of them, because he like other anti-semites derives pleasure out of it. It is akin to an abusive person who likes to torture animals. He only knows how to envelope his verbal torture with elegant language and language that appears legalistic.

This freeze is appeasement, & excessive, a gradual slide toward suicide, while graciously embracing the hemlock... We don't need "to show the world" or "So that the world can see" Nobody cares - NOBODY. It is all international political agendas, money, power, geopolitical interests, & prejudices This approach is both wrong & self destructive, & similar to constantly begging & bribing a very badly behaving child to "Be nice". This perpetual "So they"ll see & understand, then they'll love us" is BS. NOBODY CARES, aside from those directly involved, & politicians, with their "international statesmen" ego, pandering to their local Muslim population, & personal political agendas. The "freeze" gets a 30 second spot on the international news, & 15 words on a scrolling "News Update" at the bottom of the screen. Nobody knows context or detail, just that Israel looks bad-again. There will be a tipping point, where there will be no room to move, no strategic depth, & by perpetual capitulation, a belief that Israel "is our bitch" - not an ally or associated democracy to be respected. People negotiate with THE STRONGER PARTY because they cannot overcome it, not because it surrenders. There was talk of a 2-3 month "Negotiation jump start gesture". Now, Barak is claiming credit for this 10 month travesty, affecting millions of people. Supposedly, "If they don't come to the table, then we"ll restart building". Yeah, right. How many times has that worked? Retaking the WB; or Gaza; or Lebanon; or Philadelphia; or "Destroying the terror infrastructure"... This is typical elite unit super duper overclever BS thinking-feint, then attack from elsewhere; BUT nations are large units that demand structure, planning, & forethought, not "Schlof". The whole 2 State idea is unworkable, unsustainable, & delusionary. And what about the internal democratic implications, with Barak speedily implementing a Corp of strong arm "inspectors"? Nationhood is not an Indiana Jones movie, perpetually escaping from an emergency or tighter corner. If there is "peace", why wouldn't there be WB/J&S Jewish residents? If COMMUNITIES (not "settlements") & infrastructure is built, but withdrawn from later, for whatever reason, there will be compensation-town planning is town planning, & localities are architecture, not rocket science. If towns expand naturally, under one governemnt, it is much, much easier for all, regardless of ethnicity. How was WB Arab quality of life pre Oslo? Far, FAR better than today-security, health, economically, & educationally. Israel's biggest mistake was not annexing it all immediately in 1967-today, there would be 2-3 million Jews & Arabs in interspersed, interdependant, law abiding Israeli towns, living life in a stable, defenseable area, across a geographically sensible border. No "Demographic Delusions" & never ending Pal violence & threats. People's lives work themselves out, when positive, definitive steps are taken, not never ending waltzes around fantasies. Loyalty & allegiance is also a habit of life & local circumstances. People aren't stupid, unless they are being allowed (& funded) to be stupid. Not too late for reality. Just do it. When the "Pal" standard of living goes back to what it was, the hate indoctrination is rooted out, & security control is rebuilt, (whether in conjunction with Jordanian protectorate or with gradual local autonomy), the world (if it cares), will, like most people who have been hitting themselves over the head with a frying pan, will say: "Why didn't we do this a long time ago? Throw the international meddlers out. "Just do it".

(same person as Matty Groves only under a different moniker) does the same of course, while attempting to cover the real identity through the use of different punctuation marks etc., but the writing style of course is the very same. I tend to agree with Sarah B., let us ignore this anti-Semite being who can't even bring itself to accept specifically the Jewish people as a people to exercise its right of national self-determination and independence. It is interesting that it even refuses to refer to the Jewish people in a singular form, always in a plural one, which implicit of course of not only not recognizing the Jewish people's right but also its very existence as a people.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3813099,00.html

"Palestinian" is nothing more than a political subdivision of Arabs. Yes I think we all agree the Arab people should have their own land. OH WAIT, they already do. It's called Jordan. And Syria. And Lebanon. And Saudi ARABia. and DOZEN other lands. So my question for you hypocrite, is why do you insist on keeping these poor Arabs oppressed in Israeli lands and enslaved under Israeli rule, instead of helping them return to their own land, free of Jewish oppression? I agree with you, let them go free to their own lands!

<(same person as Matty Groves only under a different moniker)> Well this comes as no surprise! It is pitiful that some people are so paranoid and deluded that they will make such rubbish up just to console themselves. Of course it doesn’t stop there. The next step, as Meir has just demonstrated, is to dehumaize the people that he or she does not agree with. In this instance Meir has stated <. It is interesting that *it* even refuses [...]> But again this comes as no surprise as there are the tactics used by rabid pro-Israeli posters. Eg: Distort, deflect, dehumanize.

Yettinger's argument against the settlement freeze is factually incontrovertible. The only tactic settlement freeze supporters have is demonization, and we can expect them to use it in spades. The settlement freeze is vicious, anti-democratic, racist and plain despicable. All who love Isral must fight this evil abomination.

Can I also add that Israel turned off the water supply to these greenhouses just before the withdrawal and all the plants in the greenhouses died. I only mention it as Andi probably doesn’t know that the Israel Gov decimated the contents of the greenhouses before the settlers were evacuated.

So far on this website I have been accused of being: American British (English and Scottish!) German Catholic Muslim I can categorically say that all of the desperate guesses above are *wrong*. I am not American, British, German, Catholic or Muslim. I do however find it hilarious that you and other people are so desperate to pigeonhole me that you’d resort to fabrication and lies. It is truly pathetic to watch you all embellish on each others lies.

I am surprised to hear that "Groves" is a Native American surname. Equally, I am surprised to hear that *surname* itself is Native American.

THEY ARE ARABS They are ARABS who have been marginalized by ALL OTHER Arabs because they have value as a political football. THEY ARE NOT A PEOPLE. They are Arabs, and they ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN LAND.

I fully believe Israel has every right to be secure behind its borders, and on the other side of that border I fully believe in the right for Palestinians to be secure behind their border.

...I have always been troubled by what appears to be a repressed truth in the minds of many of the more extreme posters here. One example is the oft cited examples of "what about Darfur" etc where they complain about the treatment of civilians there yet they cannot connect that to what Israel's decades long occupations have wrought on the Palestinians. And then when a man of integrity, who actually did investigate war crimes and crimes against humanity as Chief Prosecutor of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda and the co-chairperson of the International Task Force on Terrorism, and indeed recently his mission in Gaza found Palestinians militants guilty of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. All good so far... Ooops! Goldstone's mission also found that Israel committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. In kicks in the repressed truth. Goldstone impeccable past is repressed, he has dared treat Israel equally, for this he is to be vilified. Had he just found Hamas culpable, they would love him. Dare to apply fairness, now they hate him.

Israel must never give the land ,nor stop construction. The Arabs will not make peace with the Jews unless all the Jews have left Israel or are dead . This is the sad fact

LOL. Incredible the length to which Jew-haters go .... compose a post under one name and then compose a second post under a second name congratulating the first poster for its depth of insight and profundity. Narcissism on steroids. Rather like Marco / Shlomo Kamra / Mike van Harris. I'm not a psychiatrist, but that seems pretty weird to me.

As usual, the devious hide behind false identities. Matty Groves is a song by a folk group called Fairport Convention. So, needless to say, Matty Groves of Fairport is a lie. It feels it has something to hide, or it knows that its vile opinions do not stand in the clear light of day. Do you find that surprising? I don't.

Oh, Amira, Matty Groves' language does not appear "legalistic" to me. I am an attorney. Matty Groves is a fraud. One that uses inelegant language and has a clear agenda to push, that agenda being hatred of Jews couched as pushing the cause of the "poor, downtrodden Palestinian terrorists." It is doubtless a failure that seems to feel Jews are to blame for its shortcomings and the curshing blows and assorted disappointments which characterize its life. Or it is a neo-Nazi that gets its kicks dressing up in camo clothes and running around the woods with its "militia." Either way, pay it no never mind. It is a failure, and we are Jews. It hates us because of our contributions to mankind, despite centuries of persecution. It thinks we are responsible for its failure to attain anything in life. It is rather a sorry and pathetic loser.

Here is a link to the song Matty Groves, sung by Fairport Convention, courtesy YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD3F93v1Tdc If the link doesn't work, just get on to YouTube and search for Matty Groves. There are several renditions, but the one by Fairport Convention is by far and away the best.

...and denying that Palestinians exist marks you as nothing more than an uninformed racist. Palestinians have every right to self-determination, you might study up on UNGA's Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People in 1975.

national self-determination and independence as has been exercised in the formation of the Jewish nation-state of Israel, thus I accept Israel's right to be, to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people". Signed: Matty Groves, Fairport, NY USA BBSNews, Charlotte, NC USA (This is prepared for this poster - yes, it clearly is a single being - only to apply its autograph on the above statement. Eitan, Qatzrin, Israel).

The Jewish greenhouse owners shut off the water because they were leaving. The Palestinians burned down and destroyed everything in site when the Jews left. They removed everything including rebar and bricks from the streets. The greenhouses were left in tact. Personal belongings were removed. The Palestinians had access to water and were able to turn it on in their names and on their dime. The Palestinians were also offered beautiful homes built by Jews. They declined them because Jews had lived in them. The Jews bulldozed the homes since the Palestinians didn't want them. In their place, block housing was built for the Palestinians so they could live like sardines while a million dollar mausoleum was built for the dead Arafat in Ramallah.

Both of you have accurately described Matty Groves. I've posted against Matty for about 3 years on another site where he started as a "volunteer" propagandist with a Monday-Friday, 4 hour per day schedule so he could learn to communicate with "Zionists". Matty still posts the same drivel. He's a cut and paste artist and his knowledge of Israel is quite shallow. His technique is to make provocative statements, divert attention from the subject specific to Israel and twist statements of posters in an effort to bash Israel and discredit the poster. I've never seen any sincere concern on Matty's part regarding welfare of the Palestinians. He hides behind the Palestinians and a peace sign to bash Israel. What Matty neglects to realize is that he becomes a useful idiot by prompting other posters to correct him and bring out accurate information about Israel.