If there IS such a thing as a "Palestinian people", please explain this comment from a member of the PLO Executive Committee: “The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism. “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” -Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member, in a March 31, 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper “Trauw” Don't you think a "Palestinian" knows more about their aims and objectives than you do?

So he says on another post. So if Matty Groves is one and the same he is also a Cherokee Indian. But who cares what these vile people/person is. They accept the right of the Jewish people to have a state, yipee, I am so pleased that makes it all ok then. I accept the right of the Germans, the British, the Syrians and any other people to statehood, just saying you accept the right of Jews to statehood is anti-Semitic in itself, you would not say it about any other people. Have you noticed that BBS New/Matty Groves (lets define the entity as it) dismiss arguments they do not like and do not reply to inconvenient truths, instead just become insulting. They also claim that everything they say is indisputable fact. Goldstone did find Hamas guilty of war crimes the problem is that the Muslim dominated UN refused to debate that point or implement it.

destroy. Two points: The people from what was termed "Palestine" are not a "people". I have explained this before to "Matty" but he seems incapable of understanding that a "people" must have a history, a unique culture, a governing system and a "myth" which unites them to one another. I have referred "Matty" to Carl Jung whose work in terms of myth and the collective unconscious was seminal. What the "Palestinians" do have in common is language (Arabic) and religion (mainly Muslim). As to collective memory and myth, they may, at some point in the future, remember their exodus from Israel and create a myth around it. This takes centuries, however. As to his silly logic, here in the Americas (where I reside part-time), all Native Indian tribes can be considered a "people" due to uniques languages, religious ceremonies and beliefs, separate histories and geographical residencies and separate myths of creation. Each of the hundreds can, and should be considered a separate people with separate rights to govern themselves. The case to be made is a much better one than the false identification of "Palestinians" as one people as already noted. In Canada, a case for independence can in fact be made for Quebec and Newfoundland, and, in Louisiana, perhaps a case may be made for the Acadians. A case can also be made in Europe for the Basques in Spain, for Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia in what was Yugoslavia, for the Laplanders in Sweden and Norway, etcetera, etcetera. "Matty's" simplistic, very simplistic logic, would balkanize most nations to a point that they would become ungovernable. His "logic" is of the kind that only the late Jorge Luis Borges could have made into one of his absurd but brilliant short stories. While "Matty" is "absurd", unlike Borges, he doesn't know it and, unlike Borges, he is anything but "brilliant".

I am an Israeli who lives in Efrat, Israel, not Ephrata, Washington or Ephrata Pennsylvania. Matty - in what country is Fairport, if not in the USA? Canada - where the land was stolen by settlers from the natives? I live on land that was legally Jewish in the past, and was occupied by Palestinians. Why should I give it over to them? Do you mean to tell us that the acquisition of land by war is ok for Arabs?

if you can return your clock 2000 years back .please take me with you sure i was there like you if you were realy there but sure i was not moslem by the history and logic and may i speaked a different language than araby but i was there and the most problemitic to you that iam here now .. this is about the place and time

I am very proud of the Jewish responders, some Israelis and some not, who have reacted so intelligently and forcefully to the appearance in these threads of through and through anti-Semites under thinly veiled language and tactical arguments. Thank you, friends.

Why is Matty Groves/BBS News spending so much of their time and energy on Israeli talkback sites if not to spread their anti-Israel sentiments and propaganda? Of course, he can make up a different name to spread his lies and distorted view of the conflict.

I have only one problem with your post. You conclude it as follows: "...the most problematic to you (to JPS of Efrat, Israel) that I am here now..." What you have done with this statement was to close any conversation, to bring to an end any dialog with us, the Jews of Israel. You assume you know our thoughts and feelings and state them instead of listening to what we have to say. Perhaps if you changed your approach in dealing with us - by you I mean both you individually and collectively, since your post based on my experience represents the collective thinking among Arabs - we could develop a discussion based on mutual respect and appreciation. Will you change your choice of language...?? I for one look forward to it!

Never mind what Hamas want to do to the Jews, read how these terrorists that BBS and Matty Groves love treat their own people. No doubt, as it is an Israel source, they will say it is false. A report by the Shin Bet (Shabak, Israel’s secret security force) describes how Hamas has instituted Islamic law and thought in all areas of Gaza life since its violent takeover of the area. Hamas is also threatening to take over Judea and Samaria, and is favored to win the next elections, if and when they are held. Among the report’s main points are these: A dress code for women on the street, in schools and in courts is enforced. Principals can expel female students who do not wear a head covering and wide dresses. Judges have been instructed not to hold sessions if female lawyers do not appear in Islamic garb. On official Hamas TV, Al-Aqsa, women announcers wear a veil, and Islamic content is increasingly featured in the programs.Men may not swim in the ocean without a shirt, and female mannequins may not be exhibited in store windows.Mixed-gender public ceremonies may not be held, and men may not teach in girls’ schools. Hamas is also trying to separate boys and girls in the UN-run schools. Fatah-identified teachers are being replaced by Hamas members.Hamas police arrest immodestly clad women and enforce gender separation. Unmarried couples may not appear in public; married couples must be ready to produce a marriage certificate on demand.Religious-studies classes have been added in schools, mosques and prisons. Prisoners who become more religious can have their sentences shortened.An across-the-board 1% public sector pay cut was imposed during the summer months in order to pay for summer camps for reviewing the Koran. The pace of building mosques, medrasahs and Islamic sharia courts is being stepped up.Hamas is working on establishing the Islamic National Bank and an Islamic insurance company.The Bureau for Legal Counsel and Legislation is preparing a new criminal code based on Islamic law. In June 2009, for instance, the Legislative Council passed amendments to the code for the purpose of “preventing immoral incidents in public.”The Shabak report emphasizes that the instilling of these and other Hamas ideas into public life is the result of a carefully orchestrated Hamas program. Hamas, as the ruling body in Gaza, “dictates daily Islamic routine,” the report states. In addition, the report notes, some organizations have cropped up to the right of Hamas, claiming that Hamas is too compromising and moderate.

Your arguments are inaccurate and not to the point. Having a black president has little to do with the legitimacy of America's roots as involving colonization. By growing up, I suspect you mean hundreds of years passing and and generations later. Is that your argument? As for the Hague Treaty and Geneva Conventions, do you know what they are? Have you read any? Considering that there are no Palestinian groups signed onto the GC, if you believe Palestinians to be a sovereign identity then they are as covered by the articles as the indigenous tribes were. And if your argument is that Europe's colonization and carving up of countries was ok because the UN didnt exist then- well the UN is the source of morality now? The UN was SUPPOSED to protect world order, not establish a sense of morality that didnt exist before. Colonization was wrong pre-UN.

It is claimed that Goldstone is “an internationally acclaimed jurist who has made a substantial contribution worldwide to the development and maintenance of international humanitarian law” . Goldstone cut his judicial teeth on the bench of South Africa's Supreme Court under the apartheid regime. During this period between 1980 and 1989 -- some of apartheid South Africa 's most violent years -- Goldstone ruled on cases which pitted human rights against South African statutory law, legal precedence, and judicial convention. In 1986, Goldstone sentenced a 13 year old black boy to prison for the “crime” of possessing a tape recording of Oliver Tambo’s voice. Goldstone was severely criticised by South African human rights organisations. Christine Chinkin – Goldstone’s co-author – was clearly far from impartial. She signed an open letter (11 January 2009) in The Sunday Times in which she wrote " Israel 's actions demonstrate aggression, not self-defence". The Goldstone Mission was created by a biased mandate; its composition was not even-handed; the 12,000 missiles and Quassam rockets fired at Israelis for eight years prior to the action in Gaza get hardly a mention; and there is no mention of Israel ’s right to self-defence.

As you may have noticed certain rabid pro-Israel posters here are always calling people, who are critical of the brutal Israeli oppression and occupation of Palestinians and their land, ‘anti-Semitic’ or ‘anti-Jewish’. Yet when asked to back up this slur/accusation they can’t. They just clam up and disappear only to appear on a different thread and spout the same. Why do you think this is? Also why do the same rabid pro-Israel posters refuse to address or answer any questions that may lead them to acknowledge any wrong doing on Israel’s behalf? For example if you say: “Israel has committed war crimes” they will reply: “You Jew-hater! Israel has NEVER committed any war crimes”. If you were to then show them proof of this point ie: documented reports, pictures, video clips, etc these rabid pro-Israel posters simply disappear and never reply on this specific point. Why do you think this is? I have my own opinions but I’d like to hear any that you may have.

Robert the last time we chatted you kept dodging and refused to acknowledge that the IDF has committed war crimes by using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Why is that? Why do you keep ducking this point? In fact looking back at our previous posts I believe this is were we left off: 1) The Palestinians have a unique cultural identity and are striving for statehood. This unique identity and right to national self-determination and independence is recognized worldwide. 2) The Palestinians are far more homogeneous than Jewish Israelis, a point that Robert does not disagree with. 3) Robert supports torture but cannot discuss the finer points of the practice or the pitfalls. 4) Robert refuses to acknowledge that the IDF has committed war crimes by using Palestinian civilians as human shields. 5) Robert resorts to attacking the poster rather than addressing the argument/discussion. Robert to have any credibility you really have to address the outstanding points before you can move on. Refusing *repeatedly* to address the point of the IDF committed a war crimes by using Palestinian civilians as human shields only shows how lame you are.

Matty/BBS News - This rabid pro-Israel poster will answer your question. Criticism of Israel becomes anti-Semitism when it falls within one of three criteria, (a) it demonises Israel, (b) it questions her legitimacy to exist and (c) applies double standards. When evidence of 'war crimes' committed by Israel are based on unsubstantiated reports or reports from Hamas terrorists, that is anti-Semitic. When the age-old language of anti-Semitism is used, that Jews murder, lie and steal, that is anti-Semitism under a different guise. And yes, using those criteria someone who is Jewish can be anti-Semitic. If you don't like pro-Israel comments being posted may I suggest you go to a Muslim or pro-Palestinian discussion board where you will get the views that you want. It is a bit of chutzpah (sorry if this Yiddish words offends your anti-Semitic senisiblities) to complain about pro-Israel sentiments being expressed on an Israeli website.

Feel free to stop into Charlotte and I'll drive you to the res' and introduce you around. P.S. Adults, who actually know how to debate provide verifiable facts with sources to advance their arguments. Baseless lies, slander, and vile accusations are not the stuff of intelligent debate. They are the stuff of the playground. Work on that won't you? When and if you can ever spot an incorrect fact that I have written, I will be happy to take a look. Unlike the wingnuts here, I have learned a great deal since I started studying this issue in 1972.

Two points: One is that you should look to communicate your thoughts to the non-converted also. I sure hope you do that because, as for me, you are preaching to the converted. The other point is that you cannot simply oppose every thing that others do, you cannot assume how others will react, you want to move towards a solution and that requires some give and take. I hope Netanyahu does not act as a fool and neither as a bully. To advise him to act like both a fool and a bully (which is what you propose he do) is inconsiderate towards the nation and people Israel.

i have no choice to change my place nor my time ..the same like you ... this is the base of any language between all of us on this land .. i did mean that not more than that .. this is my thinking and my saying ..it is the same you can say whatever you want . i like to listen to evry one in this world

it is not good enough. Perhaps this encounter has given you something upon which to reflect. I shall only conclude by stating: We, Jews, within and without Israel, are not eager to see a land empty of its Arab inhabitants as you suggest. Indeed, all that we have demanded, historically, going back to the latter part of the 19th century, has been to reach an accommodation of peaceful coexistence with our Arab neighbors. This mindset and vision is best reflected in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, 14 May 1947. I strongly suggest you Google for its official translation into English or Arabic - if you don't feel comfortable reading Hebrew - then read and try to appreciate it. Thank you, Eitan Qatzrin, Israel

Poor Matty Groves isnt having much success here so he reverts to asking himself questions. LOL. Matty Groves & BBSnews are the same person. How pathetic can you get.