Opinion
Obama, we’re not suckers
Avi Trengo
Published: 30.08.10, 18:14
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
88 Talkbacks for this article
61. Proud American Jew+Obama Supporter
Tom ,   Denver, USA   (08.31.10)
This American Jew voted for Obama and he'd do it again. Avi, I'm not sure "arrogant" is how most American Jews would characterize our president. What Obama is doing now is only marginally different than what Bush did in his second term viz a viz Israel-Palestine talks. That said, I think you make some excellent points. I agree that Israel is a thorn in the side of the Arab and Moslem world. The very IDEA that Jews should have a homeland in their backyard is a very bitter pill for them to swallow. Yet, if I understood his recent remarks in Washington correctly, I think Abbas is willing to swallow that fact when he says he's prepared to sign an agreement that ends the conflict and calls for no more demands by the Pals. Isn't that in effect the same thing as recognizing that Israel is here to stay? For all its flaws, the 2002 Saudi initiative could accomplish the same thing. At least it is a basis for forward progress. Acceptance of Israel, however begrudging that acceptance may be, is a place to start. Whether Bibi and Abbas will actually make a deal this time around is another matter. I doubt anything will come of it - and there will be plenty of blame to go around. (Some probable suspects: continuation of settlement building, Abbas' hanging on too long to the "Right of Return", and both sides' stubbornness about Jerusalem - to name a few), But Obama's "arrogance" won't be anywhere near the top of the list. BTW - Obama doesn't have the power to "print" $1, let alone $3 Trillion. That's the job of the Federal Reserve, which started printing money when our financial crisis started in September of '08 - under George W. Bush. We also had to print close to $1Trillon to pay for the Iraq war. (The latter was not only arrogant, but stupid.)
62. To Trengo and his followers/attackers
In the middle   (08.31.10)
Notice how most of the comments that disagree with Trengo attack him as a racist, or as an ingrate who viciously attacks America's president, or as a defender of a country that supposedly stole land from the Palestinians, or as an advocate of violence. I found nothing in Trengo's columns to support these changes, and none of those attacking him even tried to show that the Arabs are sincerely ready to make peace with a Jewish state of Israel.
63. Mr Trengo should look in the mirror
John R ,   NYC USA   (08.31.10)
The only two negotiating points the Palestinians bring to the peace table are Israeli recognition as a sovereign state and securing borders. Mr Trengo thinks they should concede both prior to ever getting to the table. Every single country in the world including their representative legal bodies says Israeli WB settlements violate the Geneva Convention. Israel's response is to construct all the WB settlements they want, annex what they want, surround them with a security fence and then say to the Palestinians, "let's talk about security." No peace will ever be achieved without resolving core issues. Without American financial, diplomatic and military support ,there is no Israel. America is embroiled in two wars because of 9/11. Kahlid Sheik Mohammed, the 9/11 mastermind said he attacked America because of his violent disagreement with America's foreign policy favoring Israel. That is how the worst of the radicals respond to our condoning your settlement policies and vetoing UN Resolutions condemning your behavior. We are your only friend and now that we expect you to make peace with the Palestinians( who could no more mount a land war against you than your own settlers could), Mr. Trengo says Israel will not be pushed. You have had 43 years of not being pushed along with $140 billion US taxpayer dollars, 39 UNSC vetoes and the best military technology in the world given to you. That is ample time and money to construct a just, secure peace( including security measures to protect your borders). Is Mr.Trengo looking for another 43 year hiatus or does he only know how to write article about biting the hand that feeds you. The entire Arab world has said they will recognize you if you are capable of signing a just peace treaty. The biggest issue should be world participation in buying right of return so that the Palestinians can return to the WB instead of Israel.It remains to be seen if Israel is capable of doing anything besides claiming victimhood which would suit Mr Trengo just fine.
64. To #63 - the mirror looking at you
Avi T   (08.31.10)
do yourself a favor. re-read the article and find out where did I say anything about the west bank, settlements. I was speaking specifically about recognizing Israel at ANY border. Pick any reasonable border - and you will find the other side does not want us here at all - and believe me I know them better than you - I have been a peace now member for longer than you can imagine.
65. #52 Salma. Ettinger's work verified by many studies.
Chaim ,   Israel   (08.31.10)
Salma, you ask how accurate Ettinger's demographic studies are, showing Jews are a growing majority in Israel, including Judea and Samaria. The answer is very accurate. Ettinger's conclusions have been verified by many highly credible American and Israeli studies. The best solution is for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria and pay Arabs to leave.
66. Response to#64
John R ,   NYC USA   (08.31.10)
My sincere apologies, I'll take you at your word that you are pro-peace. I happen to believe they ( the Pals) would accept the June 4th borders and that Israel could lease the settlements over a 15 year period. Each year,under a schedule, Israel would vacate a portion leaving the main settlements to be vacated at the end of the lease term. As long as the Pals held their end of the bargain Israel would continue the lease payments and continue to vacate (again contingent on the peaceful behavior of the Palestinians.) If they are not peaceful, first the lease payments stop, next the vacating stops and third there is a military response. Your only option under the status quo is military. Beyond that there would be massive international development money and more yet for buying right of return from them (again staged based on behavior). Jerusalem would be internationalized except for autonomy over respective religious sites.The plan would be presented as a referendum to both sides. Included is a demilitarized Pal state with international troops and NATO membership for Israel. Not perfect, I agree, but with enough international aid and compensation in the mix,(for Israel as well) it is a solution. The status quo is a guaranteed long term loss of American support and then you negotiate from weakness. The US has to publicly offer the plan and spearhead it. Israel wins no friends and loses its only friend by playing the victim instead of trying legal,creative and ultimately fair solutions. Sorry but the settlement land swap is none of those.
67. To Chaim at #65
Avi T   (08.31.10)
This is not true. I am not going to debate this here and now but in nay case I don't think the issue should be decided upon the % of Arabs in Israel: Will it be 42% or 52%. The right of the Jewish people to a homeland is not predicated on the errors in the studies (or may I call them prophecies) that you quote.
68. What's really going on.
Dave ,   California   (08.31.10)
If Hitler hadn't killed 6 million Jews and Israel hadn't been created in 1948 and there hadn't been the several wars between the Jews and the Arabs, there probably wouldn't be so much strife and terrorism today. But God had other plans. Reject what He has ordained at your own peril.
69. 65 chaim - Etinger has a clear agenda
Dave   (08.31.10)
thus all his figures and analysis should be taken with grain of salt. But even if he is right and lets say there are only 3 million arabs between the rive and the sea they still consititue almost half the population. Are you going to force 3 million to leave their homes?
70. To 66 and 61
Avi T   (08.31.10)
Dream on. You have not internalized a word from this article. Don't you understand that for now there will always be a new excuse ?
71. Response to#70
John R ,   NYC USA   (08.31.10)
What is the plan you support? Outline one that you believe is fair to both sides. If your response is nothing, why write the article? Do you think Obama will read yours and drop his plans for advancing Middle East Peace? Who's dreaming?
72. Persian Cat
Serge ,   Antwerp, Belgium   (09.01.10)
Muslims have accepted Israel's existence. This must be the Middle-East best kept secret.
73. Shlomo from the USA
Serge ,   Antwerp, Belgium   (09.01.10)
Your are wrong about the Israelis hating Obama becouse of his skin and name. Do you remember the time Obama was popular in Israel ? This was before Obama started his lousy foreign policy. Obama is also much less popular in Europe for the same reason.
74. to #71
Avi T   (09.01.10)
I am zero, null, nada. It does not matter what I support or what I propose. What ever will occur, what ever Israel will do a new excuse will come up to Challenge out existence here. My view is meaningless as it does not impact the reality of Muslim imperialism. For years I supported and worked for full Israeli withdrawal from every inch of the territories - until I realize this will not end the conflict. It was a young boy, son of a Palestine friend who told me his vision of peace: No more war, no guns, no fighting, no army, no bombs, no demonstrations and all the Jews go back to Europe. This was the son of a partner to peace. At that moment it hit me: It does not matter what my Palestinian friend think - it is his surrounding that formulate what the next generation thinks - even in his own home.
75. WHOSE INTEREST IS PEACE TALKS BHO RE-ELECTING OR REAL JEW
Martin ,   Jhb SA   (09.01.10)
America is nearly broke and like Gush Katiff they could find a pretext later not to pay for all these new cities which should cost hundred of billions even trillions of USD All of a sudden things can be bank rolled. The chance of affording cost of abandoning present residence seems hectic. Hamas the bad guys has to be the spoiler now spilling blood. Are the so-called classic good guys really serious or just seeing another gap to regain initiative and reverse 67 to their advantage. Please some one offer Bibi some cash not to pursue the Nobel prize with Abbas. The issue is any deal the people come first not the offer to receive empty rewards for selling us short for the sake of what? Obama want Israel to take pain Abbass will try to leave Jerusalem and some other issue for a future and on the agenda some how. So the matter of uncertainty could lingers on Bibi I hope you you can allay mine and our apprehensive view of the talks. You have lost your shine Bibi and Im worried its telling me you have agreed to something which is against us perhaps even to appease BHO and the saudi . monarch Meanwhile true to form we cant attack Iran. Are you more concerned with BHO being re-elected that what your voters really need and are entitle and wish to retain.
76. To Turk #11
Israeli ,   U.S.A / Israel   (09.01.10)
Turk We taking shower every day but you need keep in you mind that Israel be her GOD help.. not America help . Obama have till November ..... That"s at ....Get ready for a big change ,,, You hate ,see all over find another paper to write ,We do not want to hear from you God bless Israel and the Israeli people's and I.D.F Keepem safe they are the best in the world Long live Israel,,,,
77. No. 74 Avi T
NYC Girl   (09.01.10)
I'm a leftist who knew better than to vote for Obama because of certain things I recognized in him, and I think your article is right on target. The fact is that sometimes things actually are as simple as they appear to be. The Arabs refuse to tolerate a non-Muslim state in the Middle East under any circumstances. End of story.
78. So-called peace talks
Frank ,   Nesher, Israel   (09.01.10)
Avi Trengo has hit the nail right on the head. Great article Avi!!!! Kedep up the great work!!!!!
79. Response to#74
John R ,   NYC USA   (09.01.10)
The plan I proposed Avi does not assume blind compliance by the Palestinians, it is designed to have compliance benchmarks and consequences. When the Israeli position is to financially induce 500,000 civilians to move to the WB (in violation of the Geneva Convention) and then say to the Pali stinians ,I'll trade you these settlements for Negev dessert,how do you expect acceptance? No Palestinian leader will publicly say "i'll trade away right of return". No Israeli leader will publicly say"I'll trade away the settlements". In both cases the statements are like death sentences. Hence the US should dictate the plan and it should be voted on by referendum on both sides. If both sides don't accept it, the US should get out of the Middle East peace initiatives as an intermediary but that shouldn't sanction Israeli settlements. They are breaking the law and that should produce world consequences if they don't abandon them. No rational person believes the annexation of Jerusalem is for self defence.
80. Of COURSE There Is A Solution To The Conflict!
Sarah ,   Los Angeles   (09.02.10)
The author wrote: "We live in the present and not in promises for a rosy future; hence, the US president would do well to show a little modesty: Learn about the roots of the conflict, understand why there is no solution for it at this time. . ." The solution is for the ISRAELI Govt to stand up and tell the truth about these "Palestinians". To show the world that there is NO SUCH THING and that since there is NO SUCH THING, there cannot be any legitimate claim to Israel made by them. The Israeli Govt. needs to stand up and say these are just ordinary ARABS from Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, etc. and they are NOT "Palestinians". The Israeli govt knows this is the truth, but it continues to perpetuate the myth of the "Palestinians" and trying to give away the land to them. It reminds me of my senile grandfather playing with imaginary friends, only even he wouldnt be stupid enough to give his house to an IMAGINARY friend. Everyone should ask themselves WHY the Israeli Govt continues to propagate this myth of the "Palestinians" rather than standing up, telling the world the truth about who they really are, and then sending these imposters all out of the country, for good. Why does the Israeli Govt not do this, why does it continue to feed the world the myth of the "Palestinians" instead?
81. To Avi Trengo, Please STOP Perpetuating the Myth!
Sarah ,   Los Angeles   (09.02.10)
What on earth are you even doing, talking about "Palestinians" as if they exist and are a people to be negotiated with or anything else? Stop that! Stand up and tell the world that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian" and therefore all their claims to Israel as "Palestinians" do not exist.
82. to #29 Salma
Sarah ,   Los Angeles   (09.02.10)
First of all, you're lying because there is no such thing as a "Palestinian". Therefore, there is no such thing as claiming a land called "Palestine" as yours. This was a Roman territory, not a country of its own. It was the Romans who renamed Israel to "Palestine" -- before the Roman invasion Israel had been Israel for over a thousand years. It is the Jews who are the native peoples of the land, not the Arabs. And certainly not some imaginary made-up "Palestinians". So stop your lying, go back to whatever Arab country you came from, and leave the Jews alone.
83. Response to#82
John R ,   NYC USA   (09.02.10)
In 1922, when the Palestine Mandate was ratified it was named that because the British(the appointed Mandatory or Trustee) coined the phrase" Palestinian" to describe the inhabitants of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. That included both Jews and Muslims. In the 1922 British Census ,the Muslims constituted 81% of the population and the Jews constituted 11.5 %. The balance were Christian and other. By 1947 when Israel was granted statehood the Jews constituted 33% of the Mandate population and were given 55% of its(the Mandate's) land in a partition. For you to now say the Palestinians have no legal rights and that they don't exist would be contrary to the Mandate, the Geneva Convention ,a host of UN Resolutions and the US Government foreign policy. If you think that kind of rhetoric will assure the long term future of Israel you are living in a bubble.
84. Response to 83
Avi T   (09.02.10)
Of course there is a Palestinian people - why argue about it with lunatics ? But to claim that the hundreds of thousands Arabs who flocked here due to the economy (made better and better by the Zionists ever since the 1800s) is to misunderstand history altogether. The solution is not based on your misconceptions . It should be based on what is best to do now. If we can end the conflict by moving half a million "settlers" - we can do the same for Palestinians settlers who live inside Israel.
85. to #83
Sarah ,   Los Angeles   (09.02.10)
Wrong. Rome is who renamed Israel to "Palestine" around 135 CE. It was done during the 2nd Roman invasion, by the General Hadrian. He named it that after one of the enemies of Israel, to try to further rip away Jewish identity from the land. The name "Palestine" was certainly not "coined by the British". The Muslims who lived there in 1922 came there looking for work after the JEWS (who had always been there in numbers) started rebuilding the land. The population of Muslims in Israel before that was indeed scarce to non-existent. There is no Arab population and certainly no Muslim population that is native to the land of Israel. Those Arabs who were there in 1922 are certainly not "Palestinians". They are Syrians, Lebanese, Yemenites, etc. who came into the area fairly recently. Yassir Arafat in the 1960s created the idea of calling these Arabs "Palestinians" and claiming they are indigenous for thousands of years to the land. He did this on purpose as a method of destroying the newly formed State of Israel. Please, go do your research before posting such nonsese as you have. You have entirely missed the real background of where these Arabs came from and why they came there in the first place, along with WHEN they came there. All very important points.
86. What???
albert ,   Jerusalem   (09.02.10)
In this article you fall into the the trap has been the setting for every peace plan that has been suggested. Of course the arabs will "accept Israels right to exist" or their intentions will be interpreted as such in order to sell this lemon. Of course, they will say "every sovereign State has the right to defend itself". (knowing that they do not consider us sovereign) These statements will then be used to push us into suicide when every thinking person knows that the Arabs engage in the Islamic tactic of Tekiah,(speaking false in order to attain victory) and that the state department has been waiting to correct history by eliminating Israel. This point was delivered by the famous Jewish liberal professor Dr. Richard L Rubinstein of Harvard, author of "Jihad and Genocide". As a well known personality in the reform community, known for its liberal attitudes towards Israel, his comment that Obama and the state department seek to correct the historical wrong of the creation of the state of Israel. (see newzeal.blogspot.com and the you tube video) The truth is, any observant person can see that the Arab culture, and Islamic doctrine leave no room for any misunderstanding. There is no guarantee, and anyone that trusts in the future or would risk their future based on meaningless promises is a fool. Is that how corporations function? Is that how women who demand a pre-nup assuring them a get think? Has anyone even entertained the idea that 25 years after such a PLO state is declared, that there might be a regime change? Or that the remaining land will not be able to sustain Jewish population growth, or economic/military stability? As the sun sets on the American empire which looks to be like the USSR of old in the way it is crumbling apart, we should not rely on American promises, or the promises given to us by middle eastern rug merchants who daily break promises with and murder their co-religionists,
87. Response to#84
John R ,   NYC USA   (09.02.10)
Avi,Israel is a legal country with its own immigration laws. The West Bank is occupied land within the Palestine Mandate and the Palestinians are "protected persons" ,as such, under the Geneva Convention. I don't make the laws but Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention as of 1951. According to the ICJ they(the Israelis) are violating art. 49 of the convention with their settlements. If Israel wants to either change its immigration laws or expel its Muslim citizens (in violation of the Geneva Convention unless it is to a Palestinian State agreed to in a treaty between two states in the form of land swaps) that is their choice. I do agree the best final status solution involves the greatest separation possible between Muslims and Jews.
88. Response to#85
John R ,   NYC USA   (09.02.10)
Read article 7of the Palestine Mandate." Palestinian" is the way inhabitants of the Mandate are described. The Mandate was written in 1922 when the non-Jewish inhabitants far outnumbered the Jewish inhabitants. What legal basis do you have to say the non-Jewish population within the Mandate has no legal rights or status? It says in the Mandate itself that the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish population cannot be abridged. It says the same thing in the Balfour Declaration and San Remo Convention. I cannot comment on your Roman General but yours point is irrelevant to the main point. The author of this article already responded to you but your whole line of solutions to the Middle East problems is idiotic.
Previous talkbacks
Back to article