Let us not be hypocrites. The Torah really forbids homosexuality with the death penalty. We can not erase that. What the world accepts and does not accept is not within our abilities to change. But if one lives with the world's values, that I can understand, conversely if one lives with Torah values, that too I can understand. But to try to make the Torah values match the world's values, especially when they are in opposition, is either stupid, wicked or dangerously naive.

I've met people who knew from childhood that they were only attracted to the same sex and never wanted a wild promiscuous life. They wanted to be just like any other married couple only with a partner of the same sex. I've talked with an Orthodox therapist who had Orthodox clients that were totally homosexual in their brain and who never had sex with anyone and who were paranoid about their families pressure to get them married and have a failed marriage and ruin a fine woman's life, let alone any children. To anyone who thinks they are so smart about this subject, I think they are dumb and don't have any answers because they have not walked in the shoes of the people who have been put in this particular situation by Hashem. HE did this for a reason and none of us are smart enough to know why. And yes, there are some promiscuous gay people who make that choice just as there are some straight people who make that choice, but that is a whole different behavior that just having your brain wired for attraction to the same sex. Most of us have enough problems of our own, we don't have to throw stones at people who live in situations given to them by Hashem that are beyond our understanding.

I cant understand why the elephant in the room is being completely ignored. There is one question - is it immoral for men to have sex with other men. Jews get their morality from the Torah and not from how we feel or what e/o else says. it is completely immoral and a terrible act for men to have sex with other men. until that is addressed it is a waste of time and energy

I have similar views from what I have heard and read on homosexuality, but without any reference to Hashem. In California there is wide exposure to various views and we do discover what is true and real in this world. Indeed, truth and reality are indisputable, but I am wondering whether it is possible to make Larry and those like him understand? Anyhow, thank you for sharing your experience and opinion.

Josh, who are you talking to. Are you telling heterosexuals who are orthodox to abstain from sex before marriage, because if you are that's good because that is a big problem amongst your orthodox youngsters and not so young wanting to experiment, one reason being wanting to see if everything is working as it should. And as for Homosexuals well they are in the "wrong" what ever they do I guess, that's if you do as the Halacha says. I just don't get it, how can you ask a frum gay couple to abstain from sex. I mean is that not what's it all about, two people sharing their love for each other. On this earth there are no rewards, the rewards come in the next life, well that's what we are meant to believe, so if that's the case why stop people from enjoying life now especially since there will be reward later. But who are we to give out the punishment of G-d. If there are gays who believe they are born that way how can they be punished. But if there are those who believe they were not born that way but have same sex attractions well I guess their punishment will come whether in this life or the next. One good thing is that more people are talking about the subject, we may never get a proper answer but at least we are talking. I say live and let live and just have in mind the consequences. I say people need tolerance and stop the queer bashing. I say if an orthodox Jew can be gay and keep the Torah then he is a Hero. Shabbat Shalom

the problem?

refers, according to the Torah she b'al peh (oral law), only to those who purposely mutilated themselves or had themselves mutilated despite G-d's command not to. It does not apply to those who suffered accidental injury or medically necessary surgery, those who "dedicate themselves to G-d", but suffer from circumstances outside their control.

is a waste of time.All i do ,is defend my point of vue.That s all.

Those who live this homosexual life for years ; it's was not their free choice , they were born so . They don't want to impose their lifestyle on others , but now they live their life openly , not hidden anymore . And , as some do , compare homosexuals to murderers , pedophiles and other such "nice" people only shows their blind ignorance . I pity them .

Talula is only opposing religious coercision , is opposing those who say that Israel should ONLY obey to torah laws . But i know you , a poor bigot guy . Let us , SANE SECULAR Israelis live our lives as we understand it , without harming other lives as you try to do .

I can't understand the attraction that some feel for same gender people , but to call it "immoral" as you do , is a very different thing . Homosexuality has ALWAYS existed , but only NOW are people coming out of the closet . Some , maybe many , great people had , or have , such a lifelong relation . It's immoral when one of the partners is not in age or not consenting , but not in any other case .

is a follower of this FAKE convert , this guy from Raanana who calls himself "paqid" .

I will ask you all not to stoop down to the level of the Arab World. Stop judging. They are causing no harm to anyone but themselves if they choose sodomy. Let them live in peace, as long as they are loyal to Israel then they are fine with me

If you mean homosexuals are born with a propensity to homosexual desires, that has not been proven. The Torah is the instruction for how to live in this world and into the next. Evolution has proven that to perpetuate our species there must be male and female. This is in agreement with Torah not against it. And Charles is antisemitic since he libels other Jews.

Poor fake "jews" adorer . Your master is'nt Jewish either .

be that wrong? Wrong about slavery, Isaiah (sic), crushed...... Try reading it in the Hebrew, not the King James. HaSheim is perfect so to countermand perfection which is His Torah would be making an improvement - clearly impossible.

wear a sheitel if they remain Orthodox? I fully support gay rights, but I think they'll need to move to the Reformed congregation to gain acceptance.

Judaism isn't the only religion to struggle with this question. Mormon gays face bullying, shame, and shunning if discovered. I struggled as a young Catholic and considered suicide until a Franciscan priest recognized my despair and told me two things I will never forget because they gave me a reason not to kill myself. "Repeat after me--God loves me as much as anyone else." And, "There isn't so much love in the world we can afford to throw it away when we find it." No, it was not a come on to a confused young man. It was genuine acceptance and concern and it made me want to live again. Yes, I have stayed Catholic because of that good man and his kind words when there were none from anyone else to comfort and guide me.

"(unless they molest and rape little children)" So that's it? That's what you foolishly think? NEWS FLASH!!!!!! statistics show that MOST MEN who abuse little children are NOT gay men - but sick pedofiles. So carry on looking for more excuses to hate. You're not god - so just live and let live.

Changing the original of a piece of art,makes it less valuable,Thanks G-D the orthodoxe Rabbis,don t agree to make changes.Those who made changes,also changed the name of the religion,like Christianisme ,Protestantisme etc. If you want to change the rules,that s fine,but then,change the name of the game..

“homosexuality is found in over 450 species. homophobia is only found in one. which one seems unnatural now?

The orthodox are increasingly becoming ultra-orthodox in their rejection of science and they are becoming more superstitious and believing in the supernatural. HaSheim hasn't changed. He is perfect. He made the world with perfect laws and created man with those laws. It would be hypocritical for him to not act according to His rules, which are the laws of nature. Those that keep Torah non-selectively have nothing to fear from investigating evolutionary theory.

Perhaps they are slower to using the new technologies,as they they want first to be sure of the user s safety.

Eliyahu, That was a cute little jab suggesting I read in the original Hebrew and not the King James. Is a Tanach published by the Jewish Publication Society, with both the Hebrew and a translation into English by Jewish scholars, sufficient to alleviate your linguistic concerns? In response to #2 Larry's likening of "an openly gay Orthodox rabbi" to an honest crook: one can be an openly gay Orthodox rabbi the same way one can be Orthodox and find the Torah's condoning of slavery to be repulsive. Regarding questions of my understanding of various topics: Slavery: The Bible condones slavery (Leviticus 25: 39-46). Maimonides' Hilcoth Avadim agrees with the Bible and does not cry "Outrage!" that the institution of slavery exists. If you have not read Hilchoth Avadim, it's available on chabad.org. Maimonides' work merely tries to put a smiley-face sticker on the institution of slavery. There is no misreading Biblical intent here. I'll let you be the judge about whether "[my] understanding of Torah [can] be that wrong" with regard to slavery. I will note that slavery is despicable, and "veering to the right or left" of the Torah *would* be the righteous course of action with regard to slavery. Here, one requires the intestinal fortitude to say that the Torah is wrong, and it should have proclaimed the immediate freeing of all slaves - gentile and Jew - and not some sort of half-hearted grudging acceptance of slavery for whatever reason. Eunuchs: Leviticus 22:24 - "You shall not offer to the Lord anything with its testes bruised or crushed or torn or cut. You shall have no such practices in your own land." This was understood to mean that castration is categorically forbidden for Israel. So then what is Isaiah (sic? "Isaiah" is how the prophet's name is usually rendered in English) doing promising good eunuchs in his Chapter 56 that they will have "Yad V'Shem, tov mibanim umibanot" and an everlasting name that will not perish? Am I expected to use some tortured logic that the good eunuch is to receive "yad v'shem" and "shem olam eten-lo asher lo yikaret" but is also supposed to be frowned upon by society?

Even today,many people would prefer to be slaves in a warm house ,-where they are treated with respect to their dignity,their physical confort,like human beings should be treated- rather to be lost in the streets looking for a job and an affordable place where to live. Slavery was a reality,and is still a reality.The Tora is written for the real world,and has defined rules for slaves to be well treated.

So "in the real world", the Torah says it's okay to take advantage of a desperate person and let them sign their life away on a contract that binds them to a life of servitude? And why does the Torah grant Jewish slaves a "get-out-of-slavery-free-after-7-years" card but not gentiles? And let's not pretend Maimonides alleviated this situation 1000 years ago - he didn't. Why have slavery at all? Wouldn't the Godly, righteous thing to say and do to the desperate homeless hungry person who says they're willing to be your slave so that they can get shelter and food be to say, "I will give you shelter and food, but you may remain a free person", and then give them shelter and food? What part of accepting that person as your personal slave for life do you find practical and compassionate? If that is "compassion", then I pity the person who is "blessed" to receive it. Further, how would you explain what you believe to be this "infinite wisdom" of the Torah to a modern day african-american descendant of slaves in America? I grew up in the southeastern USA. I have heard excuses from racist or clueless caucasians saying "the black people's own people in Africa sold them into slavery, they had it better in the American colonies, and later states, than they had it in Africa" to defend the American institution of slavery and the short-lived Confederate States of America. Surprise, surprise, that excuse still rings hollow and evil. I'm supposed to cower in recognition of the light of God's infinite wisdom *as expressed in the Orthodox interpretation of Torah*? I think not. Are you willing to accept the depths to which you are ethically sinking in order to continue holding the Torah as God's revealed message of perfection, when you use the Torah to condone slavery and condemn the homosexual act?

Nowadays,prostitution is the worst existing slavery.It is tolerated in many civilised countries,not because they condone it,but to be able to control it.

perfect.Many tried to improve it,but did not succeed.