You compare enchained slaves to prostitutes . Very different . I'm not talking about the "criminal" prostitution , that IS NEVER tolerated . Why has , as you believe , god created Gays if for "him" it's a sin ? Why then punish those persons for something he is himself responsible ? Torah perfect ? By allowing slavery ? Oh yes , i forgot , they must also rest on Shabbat . Is that the "perfect" side ?

Their dignity respected ? You are not living in a realistic world , you are dreaming .

Calm down.Which question do you want me to answer?

and deserve respect as such.

It is obvious that slavery is wrong, and it is obvious that the Torah got that wrong. For the sake of argument, let's suppose, God forbid, the Arab Spring results in the Muslim arab nations conquering Israel and subjugating ex-Israelis to be second-class dhimmi citizens. Some Jews like to talk about how good Jews had it under Muslim rule in the Golden Age of Spain. If conquered Israelis becoming dhimmi slaves were to happen, God forbid, would you be satisfied with Torah morality concerning slavery if Muslims were to treat you as a dignified slave? Be honest. Why do you not have the courage to state that the Torah got slavery wrong? Just because evil like slavery or prostitution is difficult to remove doesn't make it okay to tolerate it. You wouldn't tolerate being a dhimmi slave, would you? The Torah got slavery wrong. The Torah is not perfect, and no amount of denial will change that. And the Torah got condemning homosexual relations wrong.

On my [ but it's Einstein's ] "Why then punish those persons for something he is himself responsible" The Great Albert added : the sole excuse being his NON existence .

And tell me when and where slaves were treated as Human beings with respect . Slavery still exist in YOUR midst , where young women are treated as second class people , only good to procreaate and feed their husbands .

The great Einstein added at ....".For wich he is responsible " : his non existence being his excuse .

And tell me where and when slaves were treated with dignity and respect as humans beings . They were enchained , sold as cattle , raped , beaten etc . The todays slaves are those women who are used only to procreate and feed their "studying" husbands .

The Tora is not confined, to born Jews,but is adressed to all those who are ready to follow her laws.Doing so ,those are brothers,and can be released after a few years.The Tora states how slaves must be treated,in a very human way. Where have you seen Arabs treat well slaves?

The Tora forbids slavery.The Jews send them away.Most of these people ,who never were independant,are lost,they need food,a place to live,a job...They will most probably land at landlords,who treat their slaves without the humanity recommanded by Tora.

An amateur painter,while copying a Renoir,changes the white stains in the middle of the grass-which he thinks is wrong-in green. Guess which painting is nicer?

For ex. G-D created hot tempered guys. Some chose to debate while respecting their rival,other argue with their fists.Those who have weak brains,can become great boxers or butchers.

like that.Most-the very sensitive ones-thought at a very young age,they are not attracted by women,because they were expected to be so ,before being sentimentaly in love.

the first.

Jews were well treated.

but the Haredi women don t wait for you to free them.

Certainly NOT when you say that haredi women have to be freed from slavery . When , and where were there slaves of god fearing masters ? They were better off ? Because they were only beaten three times instead of four ? TRUE gays are born so , make some research on this topic . And i repeat what Einstein said : Why should they be punished for something god is responsible . His only excuse is his NON existence . Have a nice day and week .

You list a number of things that you say a person in dire straits will have more difficulty obtaining as a free person than a slave - food, shelter, job. Why is stripping that person of their autonomy as a free person required in order to offer them a job, food, shelter? How does stripping them of their autonomy as a free person give them these three things faster, more reliably, and more humanely? A soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, and job-training and job-placement programs can be offered as quickly, efficiently, and humanely to a free person as a slave. Enslavement is an unnecessary and draconian step in aiding the down-and-out person. Stripping a person's autonomy would make it *more* difficult to aid a downtrodden person. The old saying applies: "give a man a fish, his hunger is satisfied for the day; teach a man to fish, his hunger is satisfied for life". If anything, a slave society is docile and slow to adapt to difficulties, and it is dependent upon its masters for original thought. A free society is more ready to tackle adversity, as people are forced to think for themselves. Regarding the Arab Spring and dhimmitude and benevolent arab masters - those were hypotheticals. I was presenting a hypothetical situation to you for you to imagine yourself as a slave treated with dignity, a situation that you say would be consistent with Torah morality. Can you empathize with such a slave and imagine yourself in his or her shoes? Would you truly be happy with another human being, no matter how good a person they might be (no one is perfect), ultimately having the deciding power over what you do with your life? You say that Torah-based slavery is okay ... then imagine yourself as such a slave and tell us how it feels. In response to talkback #72, if the Torah must be obeyed without question because it is aesthetically pleasing, then I say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that's a poor excuse to perpetuate Torah morality according to Orthodox Judaism. But we're not talking about Rembrandts or Picassos, we're talking about whether or not the institution of slavery is okay (it's not), whether the Torah as understood by Orthodoxy is perfect (it's not), and whether one must therefore take the Torah's condemnation of homosexual behavior seriously (one should not).

But the Tora is my fountain of life,and i am not ready to listen to you,trying to deligimate the Tora ,in order to legitimate homosexualisme. I respect you as you are,and wish you a nice day.

without thinking = Automat . Fearing to listen = not sure of your belief . Great !!!!

The day i will need information about Jewish history,i will ask you,because you know what you are talking about. Ben is a smart guy,but Tora is not his field,he doesn t know the nice sides of the Tora,and what he misses by rejecting it,

I do see nice parts within Torah. I see it as a road sign *generally* pointing in the direction of righteousness and goodness. It has its moments of brilliance. I just don't agree that it is totally perfect as it is, with its attitude toward slavery as an example of this. And this imperfection informs my view on the Torah's condemnation of homosexual behavior.

Think about what i wrote , and if you can , give a serious answer .

very seriously.and try the best i can to answer you.

AMEN !!! The Torah will never change !!!

the borders of Israel will be safe,Tel Aviv a gay city,and gay parades in Jerusalem ,what is the matter with you people? the Israeli flag with gay colors?,no wonder the arabs runing the Israeli borders flat.

that G-D is very present in my life. We are not responsible of how we are born,but we are responsible of our acts. Those who fear G-D follow His laws,even if they are not convenient.At the end of the day ,they are better of after having done the right thing.

You deserve to make the right choices in life.