No to haredi IDF enlistment or national service equals no to stipends. If you want to study Torah, you should want to do it badly enough to do it on your own dime. Otherwise, it's just a ruse to avoid military or national service, and to collect money as a reward for such avoidance.
What about national service for Moslem Israelis? Shouldn't they shoulder some of the burden, too? I wouldn't necessarily want them in active military service (except thos that willingly volunteer), but they should certainly be compelled to perform an equivalent amount of time in some form of national service. Ditto for Israel's Christian citizens.
Anyone who refuses to serve in the military or perform some sort of national service should be stripped of Israeli citizenship. That goes for the haredim as well.
Sarah B ,
U.S.A. / Israel
2. TO KEEP ON BEING PARASITS WITHOUT FROM THE TAXPAYERS
WITHOUT BEING CALLED UP TO SERVE AT THE ARMY !!!!THE SECULARS WILL NOT TOLERATE THAT ANY MORE .......END
KFAR SABA ISRAEL
3. forget enlistment ... cut off funds
don't start a civil war by dragging people into the army who are part of a separate society. simply cut off their funding and they will, naturally, join mainstream society and eventually enlist. Don't force in one generation what can be achieved willingly in two or three.
4. A reasonable solution required.
Torah study is important.
However everyone must be willing to serve and defend the country
or their will be no torah study in Eretz israel.
The Rabbis with all due respect are
exaggerating, are out of touch with reality and are wrong.
if they cannot or are unable to serve then
they should move on to more hospitable pastures, Brooklyn, New
York or wherever.
A workable solution is possible.
Michael Pielet ,
5. It's the attitude, stupid.
Israelis have accepted for years the idea of supporting Haredi study and subsidies. But the younger generation can't accept the arrogance and holier than thou attitude that is characteristic of Haredis. Just cut off the subsidies, and leave them to support themselves, like everyone else in the world.
6. They need to get off their backsides
No free lunches,serve and defend your country,these people have sponged for too long on the rest of Israel.They threatened to leave the country.Give them a one way ticket to wherever they prefer to go.Much cheaper then throwing money at them..............
Jarred Stone ,
7. i echo No4, Michael Pielet
accepting the important of both be it from a national, religious or historical perspective is important and a reasonable solution is needed which cooperates with the haredim while drafting many more haradim and arabas
8. Hareidi enlistment
As a hareidi person I think it us vital that hareidim do some sort of national service! In fact all men should do something including all those that get exemptions on medical grounds from the army ! It's Totally unfair!
Sorry Studying Torah is a holy occupation when combined with serving the country ! Why not make a "hesder" agreement for Haredim ?
9. To #1
Studying Torah IS national service. There is no greater service to the nation than that.
If you believe in Hashem and that He gave us the Torah, you should be coming to the same logical conclusion.
Believer in Hashem ,
Torah is protection for Israel.
11. I agree with Sarah B #1
Everyone in the State of Israel must equally share the burden. Normal decent Israelis set aside going to University to do proper studies until after service.
It should be no different to the HAredi
Sarah B ,
12. #4 Michael
Everyone must carry an equal share of the burden, if you do not wish to, then you can always leave. Haredi blood is no more special than that of normal decent Israelis, who willingly send their children to serve, and sometimes to die in defence of the State
Sarah B ,
Please do not join the army, we do not need you, but get the hell out of our lives and stop tying to run the show.
14. Get tough with malingerers!
If Hareidim are not fit for military duty (4F, in US military parlance) then they should participate in National Service,
doing tasks that the nation needs, such as sweeping the streets, folding parachutes or what-have-you. If they complain, send all those not born in Israel back to country of origin (I'm dying to say "Jew York" but I'll refrain). The ones born in Israel should be imprisoned and forced to do manual labour (and severely disciplined if they don't comply).
Israel is a small country and no one, NO ONE gets a free lunch. As for "stoopid seculars" (sic), if they
don't do National Service, they can be put into labour platoons with the frummies and spend their sentence arguing ethics over faith. Should make for fun conversations.
Scarborough, ON, CA
15. They refused to serve Napoleon and in the Polish army.
Haredim have been refuseniks for hundreds of years. Actually, the definition of a Haredi goes along the commitment not to serve, otherwise the religious person is a Kipa Sruga in my book. And I think Kipot Srugot are fine Israelis. It is imperative to deprive the Haredim of Israeli citizenship and of the welfare stipends.
This "emergency meeting" in Bnei Brak will determine what measures Haredim will take not to serve. In Poland after 1918 they mimed themselves through staging accidents. Under Napoleon around 1810 they refused a full cultural and religious autonomy in the empire. Let us see whether the new Israeli government will figure out how to stop those professional refuseniks once and for all.
1) Everyone including seculars, haredim, ultra-haredi and arabs must servce the country. Make a loto system to decide faith who joins where. I will not send my son to die for country when they will get choice of social service. 2) Stop stipends for all at once. Even if they do serve, no stipends. Let them work and earn their own bread like everyone else. 3) No segaration between men and woman. No discrimination against the women. 4)Core subjects must be included in all the schools.
17. @ #1 Actually not all should join read on
Lapid had a great idea. Starting immediately all haredim that want to work should be allowed. This would stop payments for them in the yeshivot and save the country a lot. If they are working then they are paying taxes and taking less out of all our pockets and the savings could be used for such things as paying off the national debt.
This would last for 5 years while the army and national service institutes figure out exactly what to do with all these extra young men and women. I'm not sure there is a place for all of them. So we need to give incentives for people to join up as well such as full scholarships etc. After the 5 years then everyone would be in the same boat according to Lapid. Each serving in a way that make sense for the particular religious, ethinic etc background.
I don't think we want rabbidly Jew hating (or any hating for that matter) Salafi for instance holding weapons around someone they feel duty bound to kill (except our countries enemies in war of course).
So not all will serve the same way. Only 400 scholarships for yeshiva students who would essentially get the same deal as today which is fair because it is a relatively low budget manageable number and there should be such scholars just as for Science Math History etc.
18. Time to get to work
These so-called: "sages" make me laugh. Perhaps they never heard of Rambam, or Rashi, or Hillel who all had gainful occupations, or King David, the warrior. My family has loyally served in the IDF for 4 generations, in every war from 1948 through 2012. Enough is enough. This nation requires everyone to serve, plain and simple. I agree that they should not be forced to serve, but all stipends, subsidies and special treatment must end. Then let's see how they fare. Most parasites don't survive when cut off from their host.
M.J. Eizen ,
Petah Tikvah, Israel
19. lets do both
I agree that charadim should do something as then a larger number would start working. But maybe at same time we should introduce some torah lessons into the army so the secular get a basic understanding of judaism and religion as this way there will be more learning done.
20. Haredi and Torah are miles apart
The Torah calls for its students to have balanced outlook, to learn it to live by it, not to be obsessed, to make a living by the sweat of the man's brow.
Haredi today wants a cushy life, and Obadiah Yousef has lost what he learned when he adopted a strange
tradition to that he knows, following Litvaks. Hakhamim of old would say the way of Haredi is Avodah zarah
21. No service, no stipends, no vote
I think the best way to pressure the Haredim is to take away their subsidies and their privileges to vote. Once the Haredim have no voting power they can no longer blackmail our government to subsidize their lifestyles. Don't get me wrong, I think it's beautiful they study torah, but even more beautiful when they study, work, pay taxes and go to the army.
Chaim Ben Kahan ,
22. Not 1 Torah Sage among these European Medievalists
The real Torah Sages of our generation are the quiet, humble, meek and retiring Eiduyot Mizrakh, Bavlim, Teimanim and moderate "Kipah Serugah" who reflect the ancient values and principles of Torah.
Ultra-Orthodox / Khareidim do NOT represent Torah, they distort it!
Israel DOES need Torah -- but that comes from the Eiduyot Mizrakh, Bavlim, Teimanim and moderate "Kipah Serugah", NOT from the superstitious, ignorant, arrogant and sanctimonious Khareidim!!!
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,
23. To: No. 9
Oh, I believe in Ha'Shem. I just don't think that certain people should sleep in leaky tents manning Iron Dome batteries while other people manage to avoid national service of some sort and get paid for so doing.
I don't think that is what Ha'Shem would want. I am sure He appreciates the devotion to Torah study, but I think He appreciates the devotion to the protection of Am Israel more. I think He is grateful that no missiles are falling on the heads of all those Torah scholars.
Sarah B ,
U.S.A. / Israel
24. To: Jay at No. 17
That's a fair point of view, and quite reasonable. I don't want rabid Jew haters in the IDF, either. But they can certainly, say, drive ambulances, right? They can certainly work in programs such as "Meals on Wheels," as we have in the United States -- bringing food and spending a few minutes a day with the elderly and shut-ins. That would keep them away from the weapons, and would do a considerable amount of good. They could also work in a kibbutz falha, or a kibbutz factory -- who knows, some might even actually get to learn more about the Jewish people and might even stop demonizing them, as so many have been raised to do since birth. How is that a bad thing?
Sarah B ,
U.S.A. / Israel
25. Ok then. Then no to my tax money
I am Dati Leumi, I studied in yeshiva. I have a job. I support my family. I served in the army. I work and I study.
Why should my children do army and your children no? I study and work... I dare any Haredi to challenge my knowledge of Halacha and Torah. Shame on all of you.
26. #9, #10: Israel has no future if
the Haredim do not serve in the military and do not work to earn a living. With you high relative population growth rates, in the future there will not be a sufficient number of non-haredi Israelis to pay taxes to give you welfare. Do the math if you can. Demographics is destiny.
27. No Army no National Service No monthly stipend
28. Theseare the moderates
This was a meeting of pro-zionist hareidim. A significant chunk of the hareidim community is anti-zionist, meaning they refuse to vote and don't accept government money - and would not mind living in the Islamic Republic of Palestine. If Israel tries to draft them, they will resist. Indeed, drafting the pro-zionist hareidim (without offering the option of staying in yeshiva without accepting government funding - getting no more than the benefits that anti-zionist Arabs also get) will turn the bulk of the hareidim into anti-zionists, and that might be a more existential threat than the Iranians or Hamas.
Aaron Kuperman ,
29. High Torah "Sages"???
Sages… Wow. What a title they've assigned to their group. They really are in love with themselves. Honors are better coming from others. Welfare gimme gimme gimme types worried that their free ride may be over. In a PANIC. Community service is where to start. They can WORK for their payments, and only if they do a good job. It will take a miracle for them to stop feeling sorry for themselves because they've justified the money they receive as coming from G-d and because they are so deserving of it. Accepting responsibility for their own lives will be tough for them because they bolster each other up in this. Maybe a genuine Torah Sage can show them that they dishonor Hashem by not becoming men.
30. 28 - u mean not quite as obnoxiously extreme
"moderate Ultra-Orthodox" is an oxymoron even a 4th grader should be able to recognize