Artificial insemination? Only for religious marriages
Meital Yasur Beit-Or
Published: 05.03.06, 16:20
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35 Talkbacks for this article
1. And they dare say Israel is not a theocracy!
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
The fact of the matter is Israel is a theocracy just like Iran, only its with a Jewish flavor and hint of so called Western Democracy!
2. To Abdullah #1
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (03.05.06)
Sorry buddy, but you can't screw with the facts like you and your people are used to doing anymore. I don't blame you though. There seems to be some kind of pathological lying desease that swept over the Arab world in the past century, and you're just another patient. I can vote for whoever I want, pray to whoever I want, say whatever I want to whoever I want, go wherever I want, and do whatever I want here in Israel without fear of some freak chopping off my hand in the name of "justice" and "God." In Iran none of these freedoms and liberties are granted to anybody. There, they must do whatever the head monkey commands. You see the difference?
3. A direct result of the weight of religion...
Hiram ,   Tel Aviv   (03.05.06)
...on public affairs and health concerns.This clearly says it all : this discrimination is government approved ! an other proof - if needed- that treatment or " handling "of people is based on " faith " , exactly like it is in some other middle-east countries , in which a " proof of belonging to a given faith " is required for medical care and sometimes for entry in the country. Same causes will always produce same effects !!!
4. Sad
Leroy F. ,   America   (03.05.06)
As a committed Jewish-American supporter of Israel, I was saddened by the violation of the spirit of Jewish law by Shaare Zedek Hospital. I get solicitations in the mail from this hospital and will save my donations for hospitals and other institutions that do not play games with the lives of people for arbitrary reasons.
5. To Abdullah !
Hiram ,   Tel Aviv   (03.05.06)
I entirely agree with you. It IS a theocracy. A country that does not have a " civil " marriage but only a religious one IS a theocracy. Only biggots would says it is not. The weight of religion is definately a part in the difficulties encountered in the peace process. But in Israel , this should not be worded out for fear of being lokked upon as " anti-national " ANY country in which religion is mixed with the day to day affairs of the state IS a theocracy !
6. You think they would want more Jewish soldiers
Steven Wilson ,   Anchorage, Alaska   (03.05.06)
to protect Israel. Keep up the abortions, stall the artificial inseminations. Pretty soon, you will have bred yourself out of existance. Principly by not breeding at all. Good thinking Doctor Einstein. The Jews need more children, not less.
7. To Abdullah in Kuwait City
First, this is not a government action. It is the action of a private hospital, which has the right to do what it wants. The only problem that I have with the hospital's actions is -- according to Ynet, so I take this with a grain of salt -- that they are not taking an unequivocal stand either way - claiming that it was a mistake, etc.. Keep in mind something, Abdullah. Like it or not, Israel is a Jewish state, founded by Jews, for Jews; a democracy nonetheless, but a Jewish democracy. Because a nation is a democracy, does not mean that it must be atheocratic or atheist entirely. Israel is a Jewish democracy period. I, as a Jew, find nothing wrong with Israel maintaining its Jewish character. I only wish that this was indeed a government action, that our 'Israeli government' would have enough integrity to take a stand like this. Unfortunately, it was only the action of a private hospital, who by the way, HAS EVERY RIGHT TO TAKE THAT ACTION. If this Jewish couple truly wants this child, why do they have such a problem in having a religious ceremony to make their union official? Aren't they, afterall, Jewish? I am not sure whether you are making these comments about a "theocracy" because you are pro-democracy, anti-religion, or just willing to take a stand anytime against anything Jewish, but comparing a Jewish hospital in Israel to a belligerent state run by a hairy monkey has to be out of sheer ignorance on your part.
8. to #2
Alejandro ,   Chicago   (03.05.06)
Point taken, and i do not like to deffend Iran, however what you mentioned also applies for Iran... Iranians can vote for whoever they want too... There are Iranians who are not muslims and they are free to worship too.... As the article mentions, you are free in Israel to worship whom ever you want and to live your life the way you want HOWEVER, will you have the same rights if you chose to do so? Clearly, and according to the article, YOU DO NOT!
9. missing info
jf ,   nashville   (03.05.06)
Who are these people? Where are they from? Are they a mixed race? Why did the hospital change its service? Is discrimination allowed? This story is poorly written and so it is not possible to agree with either viewpoint.
10. To Alejandro #8
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (03.05.06)
Democracy is a widely misinterpreted term. Most people think that just because people show up at a ballot box and insert a little piece of paper, this is democracy. This is completely wrong, but because of the twisted lies that come from the Arab world and the media, people buy it. One of the basic requirements for a democracy is enlightened knowledge. This means that not only does EVERY CITIZEN have to have access to knowledge of their political options and their alternatives, but the government must also provide this (through institutions like political parties, interest groups, and the media). The Iranian government only provides the "knowledge" that the government wants to publish, therefore the Iranian people's vote is definately NOT DEMOCRATIC. And come on Alejandro. Non-Muslim Iranians are free to worship? Iranian theocracy means the rule of Sharia, or Islamic law from the Koran. It states very clearly in the Koran that all other religions are inferior to Islam. Non-Muslims in Muslim countries all over the Middle East are treated as second class citizens (that's putting it very nicely). The truth is that throughout history and even as I'm writing this talkback, Islam has systematicaly "cleansed" its lands of "unbelievers" in the most brutal, inhumane ways. According to this article, ONE COUPLE was turned away from a PRIVATE HOSPITAL because of religious discrepancies that in no way reflect the government of Israel. I am short from content with the Israeli democracy on many issues, and I think there is a lot to work on. But to compare the Israeli democracy to any Islamic theocracy is just completely absurd and ignorant.
11. #Abdullah
Linda   (03.05.06)
Ab, I can marry you and live to tell. Do Muslim woman have that choice too? Don't think so, so please go and find some more oil for us before saying something about our religion ! Thanks
12. Theocracy or democracy
Hiram ,   Tel Aviv   (03.05.06)
Theocracy From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The term theocracy is commonly used to describe a form of government in which a religion or faith plays the dominant role. This is obviously what is happening in Israel : We are a CONSTITUTIONAL THEOCRACY and we do pay a heavy price for it.... History will judge us ! We have a fantastic country, but we are spoiling our chances to become the equal of other nations ! We are " selective" and unfortunately we are not opening our eyes ( One more point: when a Oleh fills up a form for Alyah , he is asked ....his religion !!!!! just like when applying for a business visa to Saudi Arabia !!! What does it tell you ???
13. Let Them Do It In Kuwait City- With Abdullah's Help
Yishai Kohen ,   YeShA, Israel   (03.05.06)
I'm sure Abdullah will facilitate it- and maybe even foot the bill. After all, since Kuwait doesn't allow Jews, I'm sure that our "liberal" Abdullah will want to help start a vibrant Jewish community in his Judenrein land.
14. To Hiram 12
Shai ,   Israel   (03.05.06)
Hiram Iran is a theocracy. Many Arab countries are theocracies. Israel is specifically NOT a theocracy, as you'll see if you look at the history of our country. With great difficulty did G-d even get a guest star appearance in the Declaration of INdependence! And, specifically the Dec of Ind. said that ALL religions could be practiced freely here. Is England a theocracy even though the C of E is it's official church? Is the USA a theocracy because it has "In G-d We Trust" on its currency? B'emet. Where do you get off saying "this is obviously what is happening in Israel"? We know you have a specific reason for being upset at the degree Judaism has ANY role here, but it's certainly not a theocratic state. It's a state that is culturally, not religiously Jewish. Regarding filling in your forms as an oleh, I think you're likely aware that non-Jews too can make aliyah, as long as they have relatives who were Jewish (see the government's web site under the "Law of Return". The reason it asks the question is to see whether a non-Jew applying for oleh status is required to supply this proof. So it tells us nothing of the sort that you are suggesting when you note Saudi Arabia asks this question. You'd never be able to become a Suadi citizen unless you're Muslim.
15. To Hiram #12
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (03.05.06)
I like you, I really do. You're what I consider a rarity: an open-minded liberal Arab (from reading your talkbacks). But you really suprised me with your last comment. You should know that things are a lot more complicated than Wikipedia definitions. Let me try to clear this up... Theocracy is just another type of AUTOCRACY (look it up). It means that ONE LEADER MAKES ALL THE DECISIONS (like Sadam, Khumeini, Arafat, Ahmadinejad). In an autocracy, the leader forces his will upon his subjects (citizens) while no other body has the power to check him. He can go to war if he wants to. He can kill large groups of people who don't agree with him if he wants to. He can spread malicious propaganda if he wants to. He can even stay in charge as long as he wants to. He, and only he makes the decisions. Theocracy is just all that with the added ingredient of religion. You can think of autocracy as a secular theocracy. Now take the Israeli parliament (even with all of its corruption). Ehud Olmert can not declare war whenever he wants, can not spread propoganda whenever he wants, can not stay in power however long he wants, and definitely can not kill people whenever he wants. That's the beauty of the checks and balances system of DEMOCRACY. Israel is not a theocracy, and definitely not a "constitutional theocracy" like you said (Israel doesn't have a constitution). We are a proud, free, and tolerating democracy whose complicated history forces us to be different from other democracies. But we are still free.
16. Ynet: Lashon Hara
Brana Lobel ,   USA   (03.05.06)
How did this get to be the subject of a newspaper article? If this couple is truely simply interested in going to another hospital, why did they contact a newspaper? And why did this newspaper print this? Ynet, if you are going to report news, report newsworthy news and don't inflate.
17. Response to Josh (post 2)
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
Ok Josh but can you deny that you have all these rights in Israel because you are a Jew or does it not make any difference? In Iran unless you are a Shie Muslim you won't get the same rights which make Iran and Israel similar to each other IMO! You may choose to repeat the common Israeli mantra about Arabs and guess what, I do not totally disagree with you because many Arabs do in fact live a lie but in calling Israel Iran I really do not think that I am exaggerating a bit!
18. Response to Hiram (post 5)
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
The sad thing is, Israel is destroying its image among nations by mixing religion with politics and everyday affairs and what makes it even worse that many who agree with this type religion control in Israel are in fact non-Israelis or Israelis by passport only who do not even dare or stand living in Israel and choose be attached to it only by online forums such this one. Shalom.
19. Response to post 7
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
Dear Anonymous, You started your post in a civilized way and then you ended it with a very rude and crude manners which I am sure isn't in any way one of the Jewish manners or values which explains the very fact that you are indeed a liar and do not have the decency to even post your first name! Pity.
20. Response to Linda (post 11)
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
No oil for you Linda, because you are being naughty today, perhaps tomorrow, I'll re-consider! But for your own information yes, my cousin has married a Christian man and living a happy life so yes, Muslim woman can marry non-Muslims, but of course you only mentioned this to clown Islam! Salam; My dear beloved cousin :)
21. Response to Yishai Bin Cohen (post 13)
Abdullah ,   Kuwait City   (03.05.06)
Ya habeeby Yishai what an ignorant statement that was for assuming that Kuwait do not allow Jews into it! Unless of course you are mixing up Jews with Israelis and Judaism as a National identity! FYI my passport states that it’s valid for all nations’ entry without any exemptions but why do I think that I won't be welcomed when I enter Israel with it?
22. Theocracy No - Perfect No- Better than Arab Countries Yes!
Rafi ,   Truthland   (03.05.06)
Is Israel a Theocracy, No. Does it have room to improve in the conflict between how some Jewish citizens and other would prefer to have it run its democracy, YES! Do citizens of Arab countries have anything of value to ad to this internal discussion, probably not. They are usually just trying to throw some verbal crap at Israel and Jews. Sounds like hate and an inferiority complex.
23. To Abdullah #17
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (03.05.06)
Jews and Arabs have the SAME RIGHTS in Israel (except the right of return because this is the Jewish National Homeland). Look for yourself at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Try to learn about Israel from reliable sources.
24. To Josh #10
Alejandro ,   Chicago   (03.05.06)
Iran is not an Arab state. Lebanon is a middle eastern country where for a very long time muslims were second class citizen and even to this day the president of Lebanon MUST be a marronite Christian. Most high goverment posts are only held by Christians. On another note, if you equate democracy with education then the biggest democracy in the world, India, is not really democratic. Better yet, most people in the US have no real access for information on what goes on abroad and less than 50% of the population has a college degree, does it mean the US is not democratic?
25. Shaare Tzedek is private religious - not government
Karen R ,   Maryland   (03.06.06)
In case no one has noticed, Shaare Tzedek is NOT a government hospital. It is private and Orthodox Jewish. Its policy does not reflect the Israeli government, but the policy of the groups supporting it and their religious beliefs, to which they are entitled in a democracy. I would suspect that there are other factors involved that have not been reported about the couple's personal status which would not affect a civil marriage but would affect the religious status of the children. If the couple wish to have the procedure performed, they are perfectly free to go to a government or other private hospital. Shaare Tzedek should handle the issue with sensitivity and the couple should understand the position of the administration at Shaare Tzedek. There is no "scandal" here for either side.
26. Marriage contract required
Steve ,   USA   (03.06.06)
B"H This article comes to this bent that the requirement for a local religious marriage is arrogant and unfair. There is an undercurrent that I read into the article attacking the rabinic system as not fair, because a rabbi was cited being on the board that denied the insemmination. Further, YNET seems to be pressuring the hospital with its inquiries. Whatever system is in place has a degree of responsibility to it. We in USA complain when our ports are foreign-owned. How much more serious is a foreign-owned marriage contract: that is foreign slavery! In Jewish slavery, the master is responsible for all the children bred during the slave's term of service. Why is this couple so eager to marry in a different country, but not so eager to have children there even with this method of getting pregnant? Is it too hard to feed the resulting children there? Why should the State of Israel have to ignore the requirement of Jewish mariage to sponsor children without them sponsoring the corresponding family under a Jewish marriage? Without a formal Jewish marriage, the responsibilities of father and mother are not clearly defined in terms of Israeli and Jewish law. It is a relationship without a ketuba, a marriage contract of obligation for the father. I am not sure the father even wants additional children that he would be responsible to feed for his entire lifetime. Why put him in this bind of responsbility without his formally signing on to this commitment under Judiasm? If only the woman wants this, she should have presented herself as single to the hospital after getting a religious divorce. If there is a problem in her marriage if it is genuine, that should get resolved with the Rabbis as to whether she is married or not under Jewish law, before further children get introduced into the mess of not having a Jewish obligated father. The state needs to be able to resolve divorces before it permits further children to be born. A foreign marriage should not obligate the state to bear additional children, because some other states permit irrespnsible polygamy. If Israel is not empowered to do this, then nationallly it should not be sponsoring children who cannot be fed and properly cared for in a Jewish home any more than it should permit a single man to be irresponsible by issuing the Jewish marriage contract to someone who is not reponsible enough to uphold it. That is an integral part of the Jewish marriage: making sure that the man is able to uphold his responsibilities to his wife, before creating the marriage contract of responsibility for him. If this couple is unwilling or unable to go through that process, I do not think that the so-called husband should have to pay for the resulting children of an artificial insemmination. I think it is blatently sexist to insist that a man be held responsible for children that were not born under a bon-a-fide Jewish marriage in Israel. If the hospital feels that the husband is unable to assume this obligation, and that it is unable to feed the resulting child, it has every right to not create a further burden for him that he would not be able to carry out. Every man and institution is responsible for its own seed. The hospital should not be forced into a situation where the man cannot take care of the resulting children of its insemination. It should not have to explain or justify its actions to any press either. If the foreign marriage is indeed recognized, isn't the fathering of further children not by the father without his formal consent in Judiasm not considered adultury? Is not a Jewish marriage contract an integral part of giving that consent to be responsible for continuously bearing children to his wife?
27. To Alejandro #24
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (03.06.06)
I wasn't equating democracy with education. I meant that in order to have a true democracy, every citizen in the country must be PROVIDED with: 1) A KNOWLEDGE of what each party or representative stands for. 2) The right to pro-actively participate in the electoral process. If you ask yourself why: When I say knowledge, I'm not refering to education. I'm talking about the government providing information on the various political parties. The great thing about democracy is that people recieve this right of knowledge through the political parties themselves. People are allowed to actively participate and voice their opinions, whatever they may be. This is done through the free press and media and also through interest groups that lobby government in support of the wants and needs of the public. Then, when the representatives of these groups get enough public support, they run for office in order to represent these groups in the government... This does not happen in Iran because the government -- namely, Ahmadinejad, CONTROLS EVERYTHING! Iran is a repressive totalitarian theocracy, and Israel is a young, strong, growing democracy. These are the facts Alejandro. Face them.
28. Abdullah
Lorie ,   Jerusalem   (03.06.06)
You are one busy boy tonight. While I don't agree with what you say, I appreciate your taking interest in what is happening here. Your manners impress me as does your sense of humor. Pity there aren't more like you out there.
29. To # 22 . TRUTHLAND
Hiram ,   Tel Aviv   (03.06.06)
Remember my friend. Your truth may not be everybody's . As you are a believer, you should also remember that the "truth" is not of this world, but in the world to come....and there is only one truth which is not in our posession but in God's hand ( for the believer that is )
30. artificial insemination
roann agcaoili ,   phillipines   (03.06.06)
it is succesfull?
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