You think any of those religious are descendants from Aaron Ha Kohen??? not very likely, so whose listening??

Herzel died long before the Holocaust came to be. Your history is a bit on the rusty side!

This is a well known historical fact, stop denying the truth. Zionists also bombed Iraqi synagogues in order to speed up aliya. Not to mention expelling 750,000 Arabs, but that's beside the point, for now.

The philosophies of most religions are ideal and humane, the concept of a supernatural all encompassing metaphysical entity is simply the biggest piece of nonsense ever invented by man. It has caused the death and torture of countless millions throughout the history of mankind. Have you ever thought of the fact that the vast majority of humankind is either irreligious or secular or at best take religion with a pinch of salt, they regard, all clerics as being " strange ". The same way as you in Israel and in Judaism in general relate to the mullahs and ayatollahs as being mentally disturbed ( which they are ), the majority of people in the world, be they of whatever nationality,denomination or faith, look upon the weird jewish clerics known as rabbis, clothed in their strange garb and their bearded faces and with their non conformist behaviour, as being mentally disturbed ( which tthey are ). I am attempting to be as polite as possible in expounding my concepts and it is not my intention to be gross or sarcastic in any way. I am saying this because I am aware that in your twisted wisdom you may choose not to publish this response. It is an accepted scientific fact (check it out if you will ), that the same isolated section of the brain which functions during sexual arousal is the one that functions during religious arousal. Serial seducers, porno viewers child abusers can and do become rapists, that is to say to force their ideas on others, they are acknowledged as being dangerous people. Need I continue, or is the picture clear. The ordinary man or woman in the street in London or Paris or anywhere for that matter regards our clerics in exactly the same way that we regard the clerics of other denominations.

Do not confuse all anti-Zionists with Neturei Karta. Some have lived in Israel for generations and support the ideal of return of the Jewish people to their homeland without supporting the ideals of Zionism. I am seen as Modern Orthodox, but I made aliya to the Land of Israel not the State of Israel. The Land of Israel is holy, the State is not. I chose to live in the Land of Israel because I am commanded by Torah to do so. It is the only place where the Jewish destiny can be fulfilled. I support Torah ideals, like the Davidic monarchy and the Sanhedrin and the rebuilt Temple. Democracy is bad for the Jews. Gentiles (Arab or otherwise) with equal rights is bad for the Jews. Legalizing Torah crimes (promoting poverty, destruction of the environment, homosexual relations, prostitution, Sabbath desecration) is very bad for the Jews. You people have been voting for 58 years and we are no better off today than we were yesterday. In fact, we (the JEWS) are very much worse off as a result. I won't be voting, but my "citizenship" as a Jew among Am Israel in Eretz Israel is unquestioned. I simply do not subscribe to the majority Zionist ethos. The Land of Israel existed long before democracy or the State of Israel arose and it will continue to exist long after both are gone. Return David to his throne!! Monarchy NOW!

ofcourse they did mate... but they didn't bomb the synagogues, they walked into them strapped with explosives and blew up innocent women and children... oh wait maybe I'm getting confused with something else.

this rethorical position, against Zionism, told by those who take profit from the zionist state they criticize, using non jews arguments ( and more like anit semitic arguments indeed) , do not deserve to be called Jews, they are no more than a sect derived from judaism. It is time to stand up for Israel to be united, and cross the borders of secularism and religious people, and this what Zionism was also for...

While there is much truth in the statements that some of the Haredim are saying , they unfortuneately throw the baby out with the bathwater. Over the years many right wing zionists have made the same argument against the policies of the secular labor party types. YES- they did murder De Haan they did deny visas to non Socialists Ben Gurion did say he rather have no Jewish children leave Germany if they couldn't go to Israel. Kastner did collaborate with the Nazis They did turn in their opponents to the Brits during the Saison. They did murder their right wing opponents in cold blood during the Altalena incident. They did forcibly secularize the Yeldai Teheran. They did cut the pais of the Yemenites. But this was not done by Jabotinsky's people or Mizrachy - this was done by Peres' people and to condemn all Zionism is foolish. There are Jewish parties that serve the interest of committed Jews and to tarnish them with aidiing a spiritual Holocaust is rather foolish. Several years ago Rav Schach condemned the Labor Party for those crimes- not Zionism.

Without the state of Israel there would be no substantial presence of Jews in the land of Israel. Those of us who would be living in the land of Israel, would be living in the state Palestine. There would be no Kashrut in such a state, nor would an Arab Islamic state observe Shabbat or care about Yeshiwot. You would not be allowed to enter the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, nor would you be able to pray let alone dream about a Davidic monarchy. Or do you think the Muslims allow a dhimmi people to reject the superiority of Islam? And Jerusalem? It would not even be known as Jerusalem but El Kuds. Now if the state of Israel which allows you to dwell in Jerusalem -and allows Jewish culture to bloom- is holy or not is beside the point. The question you must ask yourself is where you would be without that state and if God would want you to be in such a situation. Does God want the Jews to be oppressed? Does he want us to be hunted, persecuted and destroyed? If so, God is not on our side. If God wants this He would be the God of the Nazi's and the God of Hamas. If God is our enemy, what's the point of worshipping Him? However, I refuse to believe that God is our enemy. That He wished Auschwitz upon us, that He desires our destruction, wishes our defeat and works for our expulsion. The secular Jewish state is not a miracle such as the arrvival of the Messiah and the esthablishment of a Davidic Monarchy. The state of Israel does not have to be holy in order to be a blessing and you do not have to be a religious person in order to understand that. However, if you cannot understand a blessing when you see one, why grant you a miracle?

it is established fact that the zionist (e.g. ben gurion) used the holocaust for their purposes and let jews go to slaughter when it was in their hands to save them. please read the book: the seventh million) please read this link: http://www.cactus48.com/holocaust.html cutting off religious kids side curls and sending them to anti religious kibbutzim to be brain washed is also established fact.

You are exactly the kind of religous nutcase I described in #34. You are dangerous. When I was 13 I would dance a hora and shout " David Melech Yisrael ", but when I was 33 I crossed the Suez canal shouting " Arik Melech Yisrael ". Wake up, enter reality, black beards and sidelocks with clown like garb and strange mannerisms have nothing whatesoever to do with the Jewish people, their history, their religion or their tradition.

in the many writings of Lenni Brenner

You are looking at the glass as half-empty...how much worse off would we be without the secular Zionist "saviours." I'm looking at it as half-full...how much better it would already be if the Torah-believing Jews would act like Torah-believing Jews. We could have already had all the things I dream of except for the false messianism of Zionism. Furthermore, "Jewish culture" is choking here, not thriving. It is being persecuted and slowly but methodically legislated or assimilated away. Bringing korbanot is a mitzva as much as kashrut. I should give thanks if the State says I can keep one child but I must give up the other one? This is what it means for me, as a believing Jew, to be denied free access to the Temple Mount. The placenta which nourishes the growing fetus is no less a miracle, but when the time for birth arrives, the placenta is thrown away in preference to the baby. Who tries to prevent birth so that the placenta can remain intact? It's not a question of Israeli democracy or Islamic theocracy. There is a third choice which will guarantee our future and our security and it is tied to the commandment to "choose the blessing, choose life!"

No, mate, they bombed them, but yes you were right about them killing innocent women and children, no confusion. Anything to speed up Israeli immigration eh? Good day :)

Geographically, what is the difference between the Land of Israel and the State of Israel?

These pamphlets generalize "Zionists" and "Zionism" based on the traiterous actions of a few so-called Zionists. David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) was a Jew but are all Jews murderers? Did every Zionist cut of the payot of the Yemenite or Moroccan Jews? Sure there were some bad apples in the bunch but were they all inately evil and treacherous? Absolutely not. On the whole they most certainly saved more Yehudim from the Shoah than these Chassidim who marched like lambs to the slaughter and encouraged the same to their followers. Israel was established at a crazy time and people did what they felt they had to do. It is not our job to judge them. We should only comment on the here and now. With so many enemies why are we harping on each other??? I myself don't subscribe fully to the ideas of Ben Gurion and would relate more to the ideas of Begin. I wouldn't blame all Zionists for the Altalena but I certainly blame Ben Gurion for it. Was it best for the state of Israel? Maybe, maybe not. Nevertheless, these anti-Zionist Haredim are only continuing their division of Israeli Yehudim by making these generalizations . In fact their literature is similar to Nazi propaganda - they're taking a little bit of truth and painting all ZIonists with the same brush stroke. Labor/Kadima/LIkud all ZIonists but different ideologies.

David Melech Yisrael chai v'kayam. Where is your Arik Melech Yisrael? And I do not wear black. You really need to get over these stereotypes. There are many more like me than you would care to know and one day soon, the entire nation wil be people like me. ;-)

He also called Zionists "ideological" which is bad from Kadima point of view. He said that Kadima is against ideology (Zionism). So what is the difference between Kadima and a very small group of nuts? They dressed differently. That is all.

Berland is a fanatical Zionist Mizrachi disguised as a Breslover. His cult has misled many innocent Breslovers astray. In any case, Zionism is on life supports, just like Sharon, and will soon be cast to the dustbin of history.

David, I went to your suggested link to find it is a Christian organization that is pro-Palestinian and has a clear anti-Israel agenda....which only proves how extreme elements on any side of a disagreement use any information to prove a point. Too many of the "facts" of this "Cactus 48" organization that you use as a resource are red herrings that have been disproved for the past 60 years. Both the right and the Left in Israel did make mistakes during the founding years, but in ANY and EVERY democracy after the establishment of a country (even here in the US), mistakes are made. Better to look at the entire history to see how a country handles their constituencies....and over all, the religious Right in Israel have had it pretty good these past 50 years....lots of handouts and no military service being a couple of the "small" fringe benefits of living under the "terrible" rule of the Israeli governments!! Check your sources before selling them onto others David!! Maybe you should work for the NY TImes....and use unnamed sources to back up your weak argument.

There are many Jews with the blood of their brothers on their hands... How many of you have read "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht? Dr Rudolph Kastner ( yamach shmo) collaborated with Eichman and was responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 Hungarian Jews! Yes, he was. He could have warned them so they could save their lives but instead he let them think they were taking a train ride to a relocation camp. Why did he do this? So he could save a handful of his friends, VIP'S and ELITES -- FOR THIS over 100,000 Jews went to their deaths!!

Maybe you don't think it's so bad what the zionists did to the yemenite children. Say that they were only giving them a secular education. Say that they were opening their minds to society although they forced it on them without the consent of their parents. But one point you must agree on that you don't even see by the worst of the gentiles (except nazis). How can any human being have the audacity to steal a child away from parents claiming that they died. Picture the parents hearing about it by these secular incompassionate zionists. Innocent people only to once again hear years later that their child is still alive and was only kidnapped by these nazis who did the samething. Picture the parents happiness and yet their anger and sadness that they didn't enjoy their kids first steps or the father sending him off on the first day of school etc. The truth hurts and those who can't admit to or argue can't handle the truth. These Hasidim should NOT be ashamed of themselves comparing them to nazis. How do you know what they went through by their hands. And if you can all condemn worldly anti-semitism why do they not have the right to condemn it. You did enough to harm these poor families leave them alone now.

I read some talbacks,I read the site suggested from Daniel,Amsterdam,etc,and with this all ,we see that this is a very complicated,sensitive,dangerous,delicate,difficult subject. But ,I think,it must be keept on discussion. The problem is that this is an unilateral discussion,since the counterpart refuses to be part. Maybe call them for a deeper discussion;maybe gather Real Sages to discuss the problem. What I feel ,personaly,is that today we live in a broader world ,and we ,as Jews,have to be,and be recognized as, a Light into Nations,as indeed we are in so many aspects ,as ciences,tech..etc,and that the only thing we must do is keep on the ethics ways,keep doing good,keep trying to perfectionate as human beings,get rid of so many mistakes we commit...Well,I feel that the only answer is the Moral and Ethics improvement. I think we have to stick in intelligent and modern Rabbis,in order to be always in touch to our essence,and live these ortodox on their on. What I mean is that where law is required,it must be aplicated ,as when they harm Jewish People by going to Iran or doing wrong with their speeches against us. They must be punished for the law. If they are in Israel they must pay taxs and go to army. I think every thing must be done with tranquility and without hate. They are radicals,but leftists,rightists,injust capitalism,poverty,outrageous social differences,all of these things happening in Israel,as well as around the world,are also radical.Very radical and very bad. A reflection about the way we are living and thinking is fundamental. Re -bind our minds and Souls to religion is fundamental. Apparently, the only good think we can learn from these religious ortodox is their fight for not to lose themselves from themselves.(although they seem very unfair to other selves,but...well..)

www.shofar.net video: herzel vehatzionut

GO LEARN HISTORY

YOU CAN NOT CHANGE IT

YOU NEED A DOCTOR

If it weren't for the distraction that the Arab presence in Palestine provides, Jews would be tearing into each other with wild abandon. You are not properly socialized, and, therefore, not fit to live even with your own kind.

If you all would put half the effot you put in hurtling insults at one another in attempting to make a united front many things could be accomplished. I've got a truthful fact that applies to every faction, religious, secular and what ever else you can think of. Everyones done some pretty gruesome stuff to the other side in the past and thats a truly sad but simple fact. It bemuses me constantly why Jews as a whole can't form a single unified identity. Maybe we could all go back to being the "Israelites" or "Judaens" because making a nationalistic identity is crucial. On the other hand everyone should be a Jew and certain basics should be respected. The religious should start learning that theres no shame in forging a national identity (which need I remind you our first prophet Moses did help forge our national as well as religious identity while he lead our ancestors). To the seculars you may want to start considering yourself Jews not only as a nationalistic identity but also as a religion. How deep or extreme you practise is your choice but turning a hateful eye on those who appreciate religion to a deeper extent only serves to seperate us furthure. These things are all fairly straight forward and simple. Any extreme is never good be it religious or secular. Most of the bad things that happened in the past were perpetrated by the extremes on either side. I find little honor in being a religious Jew who has no respect for Israel and I also find little honor in a secular Jew who has no care for the religion. So basicly temper your extremes ,work to better your people and country, and for G-d's sake stop the infighting.

Where and how is written in the Torah that we Jews can not have Nation? Please,I would like to understand your point of view. Explain it...