Expert: Israel shouln't respond to Iran taunts
Published: 14.05.06, 21:03
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31. #9 qasim - What are you smoking?
Robby ,   San Jose, USA   (05.15.06)
"People must not forget that the golden age for Judaism was in moslem spain. " C'mon idiot, this is the golden age of Judiasm. Maybe you should try reading the news once in awhile! "This proves that moslems don't have an innate hatred for jews and anti-semitism was never a major problem in the arab countries. " So the Jews weern't kicked out of Arab countries in 48? "The moslem world will accept the jews but not a jewish state." Screw them were the sun don't shine, no one asked for their permission. "Therefore, only a binational state in palestine where jews and arab share govertment can have peace." I got a better idea, how about one of your Arab Countries become 'binational' and let some non-muslims in? Let's start with Saudia, since that's where the 'Palestinians' are really from.
32. To post 5
???   (05.15.06)
"He isn't some stupid monkey.." Yes he is. Just look at that freak...he looks like a monkey but a monkey would be smarter than him.
33. Qasim
Michelle   (05.15.06)
"This proves that moslems don't have an innate hatred for jews..." LOL Arafat's Uncle participated in the genocide of Jews during World War II. Where do you think Arafat learned this kind of hatred? It's a fact. "Therefore, only a binational state in palestine where jews and arabs share government can have peace." Wrong! Israel should be allowed to exist and live in peace from attacks by muslims. Jews have had to learn the hard way that they can't trust anyone...especially muslims.
34. Response Essential, Foolish Response Invites Disaster
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
Ms. Shefer is partially correct in that if Israel responds with threats the world will, as it prefers, perceive this situation as solely Israel's conflict and problem. She is wrong, however, in that if the child doesn't shriek when someone steps on his foot then no one realizes he's being hurt. What Israel must do is pump up the rhetoric focusing on the danger that Iran's nukes would pose to us while being disciplined to avoid making the stupid threats and insults (like a number of the postings here) that make Israel look like we have a schoolyard mentality spoiling for war. The latter magnifies the world's natural proclivity toward misojudaism. What a bitter irony it would be if the "monkey" is outwitting the ad hominem demagogues. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
35. to the atheist Iranian
Mike ,   Atlanta, USA   (05.15.06)
You're sick of everyone and you want to free everyone ASAP? Thanks for adding nothing to this conversation. The least you could do is offer a disparaging remark against arabs or jews (neither of which you belong to). I'm sick of you guys buying up all the BMW M3s for your kids. We can't get ahold of any...
36. Logic Lesson for Yakov Shani, Afula (18)
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
You wrote: "All people who get religion on the brain are psychos... all are illogical ergo unpredictable." Your posting is riddled with logical fallacies (e.g., stereotyping, generalizations, assumptions stated as facts, false premises, non-sequiturs, etc.). Gratuitous hate-mongering is unbecoming. Take a course in discrete math (logic). Rebuked in logic by a religious person. Ironic, ain't it? Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
37. Speak softly and carry a big stick!
Nachash Tsefah ,   Tel Aviv   (05.15.06)
38. #34 (Paqid)
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
Paqid 16 says "What Israel must do is pump up the rhetoric focusing on the danger that Iran's nukes would pose to us while being disciplined to avoid making the stupid threats and insults (like a number of the postings here) that make Israel look like we have a schoolyard mentality spoiling for war. The latter magnifies the world's natural proclivity toward misojudaism." Sorry Paqid, but I disagree. (I suggest that we avoid misleading and meaningless abstractions like "the world," which means only one thing precisely: a big rock with a molten metal core.) I see no point in likening the Jewish people to a child shreiking. Further, if your claims about anti-Semitism (no need for your neologism "misojudaism") are correct, nobody would care much about Iranian nukes being a danger to Israel. The JEWISH approach to Iran is not to talk at all, but to launch a preventive strike immediately. I can bring some cites (e.g. if an enemy comes to kill you, wake up earlier and kill him first). In this case, though, the US is probably planning something and would prefer Israel to not interfere. If the US will be handling Iran, great. Why not, though, destroy Hezbollah? This will need to be done anyway; doing it now makes Iran's war planning more complicated.
39. #36 (Paqid)
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
Paqid, I will let Yakov cut you down to size, although he will probably be too polite. I'm interested, though, in the mathematical logic book that includes "stereotyping, generalizations, assumptions stated as facts, and false premises" as logical fallacies. Please share.
40. Well said Brenda Shefer!
Miss Muslima ,   London, England UK   (05.15.06)
How come it took it so long to figure out? Sheeeeeeeeeesh, The guy is addicted to the publicity he would not otherwise get! What else could he say that would guarantee him front page headlines in every newspaper on the planet. He probably looks forward to Israel's response the most. Finally! Someone who get's it!
41. Israeli = evil ??
Paul Peter ,   USA   (05.15.06)
When i think as deeper as.. i can understand why israeli cuoldn't be believed. Because this country never have a state in the world. You can see the map which made more 60 years ago.. you can't find an israeli country!! So this country no there on all the world maps.. never real.. and if we make israeli to be real or exist.. so that our world will be a "hell".
42. right to exist = rhetoric
RD ,   Anchorage, AK   (05.15.06)
Anyone arguing Israel's "right" to exist is a fanatic in a fantasy world... spewing nonsense, because it's simple... Israel exists, period. Engaging in a debate with an idiot is dangerous because bystanders might not be able to tell the difference between the two of you. The only question is if we can put the idiot in his place (powerless and relatively mute) peacefully. Make no mistake, he is a lunatic... fanaticism -is- lunacy ...and dangerous, if we let him be (either dangerous, or simply let him alone). For a country of immense oil energy wealth to demand nuclear power is both a childish assertion of "rights" and a pretense to obscurely attain the threat... and eventual possession of nuclear weapons, real or 'dirty'. Idiots and children need simply be dealt with firmly (take away their ability to abuse), quickly, and without over-'reacting' ;)... It would be best if the rest of the world understands and helps... without jockeying for global influence, and endangering everyone in the process. Russia/China can keep their standing (open to 'mavericks' or 'opponents' of the 'west') without dragging feet on 'spanking' Iran, if they wanted to. Personally, I'd like to see us all switch to vegetable oil power and negate oil producers' wealth and leverage to cause trouble. Less money might mean fewer weapons.
43. Discrete math (logic)
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
Discrete math enables one to digitize logic so that a computer can determine the logical validity of a problem. The computer isn't necessary if one can perform the same calculations with the same precision in one's head. Except for false premises, discrete math allows the computer to filter out all of the logical fallacies (not just the few I listed). I used, inter alia, Fundamentals of Logic Design (Charles Roth) and a number of others in computer science grad school. But you can find more up-to-date books in logic (discrete math) and take a course or two in the fundamentals of discrete math in the computer science department of nearly any university. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
44. Misojudaism versus anti-Semitism, Response Strategies
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
I think ynet must have rejected the first draft of this message. There were a couple of poorly stated sentences, so that's probably best. I adhere to the definition of "world" found in most dictionaries. Arabs are Semites and, therefore, by definition aren't anti-Semites. Muslims are mostly pro-Arab and, therefore, they aren't anti-Semites either. They don't even hate assimilated secular Jews in the Diaspora except when they identify with something Judaic, like Israel or Torah. They are anti-Judaic, not anti-Semitic. They know that. The world knows that. Only Jews refuse to acknowledge it, apparently because we have some fatal obsession with shooting ourselves in the foot. It's stupid to cling mindlessly to an obviously self-defeating term. A misojudaic preinclination isn't the same as a closed-minded antagonist and it isn't in our interest to corroborate and reinforce that preinclination. Misojudaism is a fact, only the degree at a given time is debatable. Your generalization that, "therefore," no one is going to care much whether Iranian nukes are a danger to Israel manifests a neurotic proclivity among some Jews that the world will hate us no matter what we do. Many non-Jews do care; and we need to be disciplined to disprove, not prove, any misojudaic preinclination. The Iranian leader is Persian and there are other parallels to Haman. We can parody him as Haman-dinejad or something without stooping to their level of the Protocols (calling him a "monkey"). Your blustery approach gives a victory to Arabs, reinforcing their propaganda that we're the great Goliath and they are the small, oppressed victim. I think it's more accurate to restore the image we had when the world loved us: David, oppressed by 22 surrounding terrorist Arab regimes. The world sympathizes with the perceived victim, sympathy your blustering transfers to the "oppressed" Palistan. No responsible Israel leader will entertain the irresponsible impulse to Invade Lebanon and "prove" Arab propaganda right. Don't pontificate to me about the Jewish approach from a secular perspective or the safety of the distant diaspora. The Jewish approach has never endorsed myopic oversimplification. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
45. # 36 Paqid
yakov shani ,   Israel   (05.15.06)
Good day Sir, Thank you for your lesson, I am always prepared to learn. Please let me make it clear to you. I received a Tanaach personally from Rabbi Shlomo Goren 45 years ago atop Massada at my swearing in ceremony, it has never left my side since, where I go It goes. I have my way of expressing my love and dedication to Israel, you have yours. Let's respect each other on that. I love the Jewish people, our history and our traditions and I read the Tanaach frequently, all my life. But, Sir, I have a serious inward conflict, not ongoing, the outcome was decided years ago, Pragmatism prevailed. All spiritual concepts to me are metaphysical, all metaphysical concepts are the product of man's colorful imagination. If I were to have a long didactical discussion with you, I would possibly pass your test, but should I say to you, with conviction, that a winged cow is flying round the moon at 1000k per hour and is destined at some point in the future to descend to earth and be the saviour of mankind, you would immediately discount me as a person not well balanced, to say the least, and perhaps a candidate for the big house of many windows and white coats. All the world's religions, and their preachers overflow with such nonsense, have millions of followers who believe such nonsense, yet no one thinks of having them sectioned or of as being imbalanced. I personally believe that religion in all its manifestations has been the single most contributing factor to human misery and suffering, throughout the history of mankind, succinctly put, one of man's lesser inventions. Any person who becomes obsessed with an extreme ideaology inevitably becomes slightly imbalanced, by definition, history is full of examples, both with negative and positive results. One more point, sex and sexual activity are known factors in precipitating unusual, and in some cases, anti social or criminal behaviour, certainly oftentimes, behaviour which is subsequently regretted. It is a well accepted fact in the science community of today that the section of our brain active during sexual ruminations is the same section responsible for matters of religion. I was not hate mongering, not gratuitously or otherwise and sequiturs I always have. These are my opinions based on the long and arduous journey through life, the main lesson of which, for me at least, is, empiricism counts, fantasy discounts. One in the hand is worth two in the bush. Moses, in my opinion struck a healthy balance between the two, his most ardent followers of late, do not. All my best wishes to you,Sir, I meant you no harm and no degradation, just my opinion.
46. sk. Response to your # 93 other page
yakov shani ,   israel   (05.15.06)
I do not know whether you are familiar with the Temple mount or not. There are disputes as to exactly where the Temple stood, but other factors are very clear and their descriptions in the Scriptures can be followed with ease. The Dome of the Rock stands in the MIDDLE, over what is considered to be the sacrificial alter. On the southern EDGE stands the Mosque, El Aktsa. The root of this word is KTSE, both in Hebrew and Arabic, in both it means EDGE or FARTHEST. According to Moslem tradition Mohammed was transported one night on his winged steed Burak, from the Kaaba in Mecca to the temple mount, he dismounted at the MIDDLE mosque, Barak waited for him at the El Aktsa Mosque, the FARTHEST Mosque, he remounted and proceeded on his journey to heaven. El Aktsa is the "farthest place" hence the name. These events, whether they took place or not, are recorded in the Koran as the ISRA and MIRAJ respectively. LILAT EL MIRAJ ( The Night of ascension ) is an important celebration in the Islamic calendar. Was or was not in Jerusalem is irrelevant. It is deep in the minds of over a billion and still growing. Best wishes.
47. Yakov (#45), I find little in your message...
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
to disagree with! :-) You wrote: "Let's respect each other on that." Amein, brother. I particularly fully agree with you on the error of leaving the path of pragmatism and the real world to follow any path of "faith" just because the real world occasionally has the audacity to contradict our religious interpretations. On the other hand, this universe didn't create itself, the orderly laws of the universe evidences an orderly Singularity, not a capricious chaos. So, we're here for some metaphysical reason and purpose. The challenge, as I view it, is to discover that purpose, with accompanying meaning, within reality and, especially evidence and logic (since it lies outside the physical realm). It's a pleasure communicating with you. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
48. Yakov (#46), do you dismiss Dr. Kaufman's work?
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
Please do support your placement of the Beit ha-Miqdash identical to the domed mosque from Scripture. I'm convinced that cannot be done. I think Dr. Asher Kaufman's work is more compelling. According to his analysis (inter alia, Asher S. Kaufman, Where the Ancient Temple of Jerusalem Stood," Biblical Archeology Review, 1983.03, p. 40ff). He places the Beit ha-Miqdash well north of both of the present mosques. The Mizbeiakh (altar) was on the east side of the Beit ha-Miqdash. If you place the Mizbeiakh in the center under the dome of the northern mosque, [a] I don't think the Beit ha-Miqdash would fit west of it and [b] I don't see how the Mizbeiakh nor its ramp would be constructed on the point of that rock. Additionally, your placement doesn't fit the Talmud description of looking due east through the Shaar ha-Rakhamim (East Gate) directly at Har Zeitim (Mt. of Olives). How do you answer these and other problems raised by Dr. Kaufman, which his placement resolves? Some illustrative drawings can be seen at my website: As for recent Muslim tradition, it isn't constructive to accept, much less promulgate, recent modifications to their tradition that they redacted for political reasons. It is certainly relevant. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
49. # 47 Paqid
yakov shani ,   israel   (05.15.06)
I agree with your opinion of orderly laws and singularity, it is indeed an irrefutable fact. Your conclusion that we are therefor here for a purpose is reasonable and logical and thus, being a declared pragmatist I must agree. The challenge is a different story. I enjoy excercising my mind and have given this subject mountains of thought . I have gazed at the stars, I have stood on the banks of the Nile, I have looked long at Horeb and climbed a few mountains in Sinai, the Judean desert and the top of the Matterhorn are two places where I have contemplated the challenge in perfect solitude and silence. No answer, no conclusion. I am but one small grain of sand in humanity, larger grains than I, geniuses of repute and distinction have also contemplated the challenge, frustration was their answer. Science and religion are destined to an eternal conflict, the sages of Islam have arbitrarily decided the outcome. The sages of Christianity and Judaism are at the moment likened to a hung jury. I searched for the answer in my own way, as I said, others have gone to the Moon and still others shall go to Mars and beyond, If they return, and I hope they do, they shall bear no answer and no tidings. The world is a mystery, an enigma, an insoluble puzzle and man's inquisitive nature and unquenchable thirst for a solution has caused him to invent religion with all its trappings as a means to search and perhaps find the answer. Some put this vehicle to good causes, others to bad ones. In this case the bad outweighs the good by infinite measure. The challenge will be everlasting, or at least for as long as Man prevails, which judging by present events, may not be very long, as there is one man who at this moment is tampering with religion and science without having the proper balance.
50. Science & religion eternal conflict? I respectfully disagree
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (05.15.06)
If we define religion as the study of a Singularity-Creator then conflict between science and religion is impossible by definition. They are logically equivalent. (If you don't accept that definition for religion, I'm sure we can find another term that fits that definition, or coin one.) Empirically, by contrast, conflict between science and religion, on the one hand, seems to inevitably conflict with man's clearly inferior interpretations. Thus, it seems to me, the problem rests not with the Singularity-Creator, nor His orderly laws nor His orderly Instruction (Hebrew "Torah") Manual for Life. The flaw is always in man's limited comprehension and correspondingly flawed interpretations. That's where logic, science and religion of the real world, on the one hand, diverge from blind faith and mindless following the interpreters of one's own culture and society with a tunnel-vision that ignores contradictory facts, history, documentation, etc. More maddening are scientists of "faith," who compartmentalize their brain so that they are disciplined to understand science according to logic but find no difficulty dismissing logic and evidence when it comes to the utterings of the interpreters of that faith. They know better, but, compartmentalizing their mind, willingly become schizophrenic in order to retain their faith when it contradicts facts and evidence. Then rabbis wonder why over 90% of Jews have become estranged from Torah and young educated Jews increasingly find no value in such Judaism. My biggest beef is when will Xns and Muslims ever wake up to how far behind the Jews they are with their displacement theologies? Judaism is like democracy in one respect: it has flaws but every alternative is a far sight worse. I leave it with you for now. I think I'm taking up more discussion space than I should. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew
51. Looka here, BOY!!!
Yoel Ariel ,   mobile   (05.15.06)
I would have thought a sound,... "YOUR MOMMA DO!!!" would suffice. Trouble no Official in the Israel government knows how to play "the Dozens".
52. # 48 Paqid
yakov shani ,   Israel   (05.15.06)
My response was to sk on the question of Mohammed and El Aktsa. I am insufficiently versed in the details of the dispute as to the temple and therefor I opened my post by saying that indeed there was a dispute. My understanding is that animal remains have been found deep in the bowels of the earth under the Even Shtia and man made channels thought to have been crafted in order to syphon off the blood, thus giving credence to the belief that this was where the altar was situated, and if the altar, then the Mikdash. However, thank you for your link and please enlighten me more if you will.
53. #43 (Paqid on logic)
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
Dude, you're just using big words to talk about hum-drum Boolean logic. And yes, mathematizing if possible to do, can clear up confusions. You misuse language such as "logical fallacy," which was my point in #39.
54. AHAMAD =Macak,
pierre ,   belgique   (05.15.06)
The word,that expresses,the right name of this imbicile,of Iran is MACAK,It is the name of a monkey,but the real MACAK,has more Intelligence..All this Nuke,attitude,will eventually blow up,in the faces of the Iranians.The People of Iran ,are heading for a new revolution..Wait and see;;;;;
55. #44 (Paqid)
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
Out of curiosity, Paqid, do you really think that the following is good writing? "A misojudaic preinclination isn't the same as a closed-minded antagonist and it isn't in our interest to corroborate and reinforce that preinclination." All you're saying is that circumstances can make someone who already hates a group hate it more. Forget the logic books. Get a copy of Strunk & White.
56. #44: Paqid's long, pointless essay
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
I'm losing patience with you. In your second paragraph, you miss my point that abstractions like "the world" should be avoided and that specific states and institutions should be used instead. Clarity and specificity are advantageous, with or without discrete math. Paragraphs 3, 4, & 5 consist of self-indulgent word-mongering related to your neologism "misojudaic," and feature the dubious claim that "Muslims . . . don't even hate assimilated secular Jews in the Diaspora except when they identify with something Judaic." In paragraph 6 you gratuitously reference the Protocols, suggesting that calling Ahmadinijad "Monkey Boy" is in any way comparable to this most famous fraud. Paragraph 7 seems to contain the heart of your "analysis." You believe that Israel can possibly convince Europe and the US that it, Israel, is a shrieking baby, a poor oppressed David, and that this, if successful, would cause Europe and the US to run and defend Israel. Alas, a weak posture like this is (1) undignified, (2) if successful, destabilizing, as it weakens deterrence, and (3) unlikely to be achievable. You are also incorrect to say that "the world" loved Israel because it was a shrieking baby. No, Israel was respected by some countries, feared by others, and loved by many Americans when it showed that it was strong. You say: "Don't pontificate to me about the Jewish approach from a secular perspective or the safety of the distant diaspora." I will "pontificate" just as I please. For all your windy blather about discrete math, misojudaic preinclinations, and neuroses, you say almost nothing. I believe my approach is fully consistent with Jewish law ("If someone comes to kill you, kill him first" (Sanhedrin 72a). In fact, my approach turns out to be Feiglin's too, it seems. If you can suggest a different Torah-based approach succinctly, I am interested. If however, as I suspect, your purpose here is to posture, I will skip you in the future.
57. #46 (yakov)
sk ,   USA   (05.15.06)
Uh, Yakov, I thought our disagreement was regarding whether Mohammed ever set foot in Jerusalem. So, when you say "Was or was not in Jerusalem is irrelevant. It is deep in the minds of over a billion and still growing. Best wishes." I am puzzled. My impression was that, historically, this whole Temple Mount biz occurred well after Mohammed's death, and associating M's departing point with the Temple Mount was inserted into the Koran then. This doesn't mean that this is any less believed. After all, the nature of the Trinity wasn't developed until well after Jesus's death, and the Pope came later as well.
58. # 57 sk response
yakov shani ,   Israel   (05.15.06)
First off, we have no disagreement, on facts I never disagree,unlike our Pali pals. Dates, the big M 570- 632, the miraculous journey on Barak allegedly took place in 621, Dome of the Rock built in 690- 691, El Aktsa, The Farthest Mosque, 710. The Dome was built as a political statement and in that exact place in order to establish hegemony and obliterate any remnants of a temple or any remnants of a former deity, religion etc. i.e. you and I. The story was invented as you can deduce from the date 710 and El Aktsa was built in order to give substance to the fairy tale, skin bone and marrow substance, then inserted in the Koran and Jerusalem declared the third most holiest place in Islam. Once inserted in the Koran it became "fact", hence my statement, "was or was not". Of course he was not, but you, Mr. Infidel, go tell it to a billion Moslems, but before you do I advise you to don a very serious coat of armor. Permit me to add here my favourite mantra, given half a chance they will repeat this process at Westminster Abbey, Notre Dame de Paris, St. Patricks NY and declare them as the 4,5 and 6th most holy places of Islam . I am usually told in response that I am paranoid, neurotic, racist and a few other epithets to boot. I however stand by this opinion and can back it up with countless facts and utterances dating from Mr.M and up to this very day. I hope you at least will not issue any more titles to the existing ones. I hope all is now clear.
59. #58 Yakov
sk ,   USA   (05.16.06)
Yup, I understand now. All the aerial pictures of Jerusalem are wrecked by those horrible domes.
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