I am happy you know some religious reform Jew and some devoted reform "converts". By the way according to the last jewish census in USA, only 4% of reform Jews define themselves as religious (even according to their own leniant standards) contrary to 80% of orthodox Jews A recent study also showed that more than 70% of reform and conservative "converts" are NOT AT ALL attached to Judaism. My personal experience in Montreal is : - reform conversion : one month - no jewish commitment - conservative conversion : three months - intermediate commitment - orthodox conversion : more than two years - total commitment

Rachel, I have lived part of the time in London and part of the time in Israel for the last 35 years, so have probably lived in Israel about as long as the average Israeli.

In your reply you evade the issue. I did not refer specifically to the mikvah but rather to your general statement regarding "orthodox bashing". I see things in exactly the same way as you do, only from the other side of the "homa" which has unfortunately sprung into existence between us, rotze lomar, "secular bashing". The mikvah is not an issue. Please believe me Kyle, Torah, our history and our traditions are of prime importance to me. There are certain customs which I have observed all my life, kashrut for one. I can not accept certain others which are forced upon me. I shall give you one instance which to you may seem of minor importance and even trivial and not worth discussing. To me it is a major problem. I wish to visit the Kotel whenever I am in Yerushalayim, it is for me very important, I wish to do this with my wife standing beside me, she is for me my flesh and my blood, we have been together for 45 years, I can not do this as you well know, why ? Does the Kotel not belong to me ? Did I not play my part in three wars, thus ensuring it's return to it's rightful owners ? Kyle. I was witness in 1967, a few days after the war to the following scene, after the Rabbanim had established hegemony over the Kotel. A friend of mine, a paratrooper who had actually fought the Legionaires in hand to hand fighting, entered shaar haarayot and fought to liberate the Kotel, saw his comrades die by his side, for the Kotel, was refused kirva el hakotel by the Rabbanim until he divested himself of his rifle and put a cover on his head and agreed to go to the kotel without his wife ( at the time ezrat nashim had not yet been set up ). He did not want to do any of these things but he agreed because his emotions were stronger. Is this right ? I think not. This is what I am referring to when I talk of things being forced upon me.

"I view this as an "attack" on myself and others of my disposition. to paraphrase you Kyle, no day complete without restricting my liberties." Funny... now you know how the Chareidim felt when the secular Zionist started to come into Eretz Yisroel attacking them whenever they could...

Drugs, suicide, speeding and in fact law breaking are alien to me, totally alien. I am far from being ignorant of Jewish tradition. Judaism is real and has never been a question for me. Interpretation is the issue. There are things which I can not accept, but more than not accepting them I can not accept the fact that they are forced on me. If you read my reply to Kyle in re the Kotel you will understand.

funding in Israel, then what gives the Orthodox the right to have a monopoly over them?

Why is the Kotel holy? Because it is all that we have left of the Beit Hamikdash. During the time of the Beit Hamikdash there were separate areas for men and women, and also special areas for Leviim and Cohanim. There was no place in the Beit Hamikdash where men and women mixed together. Today out of respect for the original configuration of the Beit Hamikdash we keep separate areas for men and women. The "egalitarians" have the Robinson Arch to hold their mixed ceremonies, but Reform rabbis have stated that there is nothing holy about the Kotel or the Beit Hamikdash. "Berlin is the new Jerusalem" -- who said that?

I will not get drawn into a diatribe with you, mainly because I respect every Jew beasher hu. I do find your statement disrespectful and distressing and very stupid. If I tell you that my ten grandchildren are sixth generation Israelis all from a family of anshei adama, you may understand my revulsion at your statement.

Tolerence & Unity are far more important than anything else. The more powerful the super orthodox become the more they seem to discriminate against any Jew that doesn't meet their criterias and standards. BARRING OTHER JEWS FROM A MIKVAH WILL NOT STOP THEM FROM DOING WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. So If they really care they would try to engage in meaningful dialogue. I personally don't believe they really care, they just want to be RIGHT. Instead they discriminate against the future convert despite the fact that we are commanded by the Torah to embrace and respect them. They engage in this behavior despite the fact that this person may be extremely sincere and in fact a truly righteous person...Or can a truly righteous person ONLY have a beard, wear black suits or wigs? Disunity and Intolerance are the #1&2 spiritually destructive forces in Jewish history. The super orthodox contribute heavily to both when they engage in this kind of behavior. Of course this is happening in Israel whose inhabitants have become extremely calloused by so many factors. If Jews, especially self righteous ones, don't change their behavior, all the shukling in the world and Torah study will not alter the fate of the Jew to repeat his dark history over and over again. And we are commanded never to rely on miracles so despite the Jews return to Israel, and despite all the miracles that have happened in the last 58 years, anything can happen in Israel and to anyone. . In other words, no Jew, despite his or her religious affiliation, is immune from disaster, terror or annihilation It is said that Rav Kaduri, before he died, stated that the super orthodox will be the last to accept the Mashiach upon his arrival. I wonder why he said that? I guess he understood the 2nd nature of the super othodox. The true nature of the Jew is to love, embrace and tolerate his fellow Jew and to deal with all sincere people in an open and respectul way. That is the way of the Mashiach.

why conservative, reform, or any other non-orthodox Jews cannot dip in an [orthodox] mikveh? I am trying to understand what exactly is the problem here.

Secular Jews founded, defended, and made Israel what it is today. If it were up to the Orthodox Jews Israel wouldn't be a Jewish state it would be part of Syria or Jordan. Reform and Conservative Jews are just as 'worthy' as Orthodox Jews. You people think you're so holy its ridiculous. Were living in the 21st century people.

"Status Quo" gives the right for the Orthodox Rabbi's to control them.

I hate to say it but I too think that Reform and Conservative doth protest too much. Why in the heck do they require a mikveh? It is a ritual which has no meaning to these non-Torah observant persons. They are just trying to make problems in the community. I too am sick of the anti-Religious articles which Ynet posts and have seriously restricted my reading of this vulgar publication. My life has turned for the better because I don't get upset and angry at those who seek to anger the people who follow Hashems laws. This is nothing but provokation, more of the same from groups who seek to destroy Torah law. Maybe there are some fine reform or conservative jews out there, but there is room for them to join the observant. I pray for their return every day...

The use of publicly funded facilities (mikvehs or Post Offices) to enhance the power of the ultra-orthodox segment of the population is beginning to read like a chapter out of Alice In Wonderland! The hours of the Beit Shemesh Post Officde have now been changed to accomodate separate times for men and women. So - are women allowed to lick and glue a stamp with a male image? A high percentage of the sea is polluted - so the non-Orthodox have a choice of disease or winter drowning. That sounds like a cleverer solution than the apparatus of the Spanish Inquisition. God bless the Jews - if there ain't no trouble, they invent it!

a clear picture I recommend you: #2 #5 #6 #7 #19

Mikvehs should be non-government institutions. In the meantime, let the conservative and reform movements cooperate to built their own private mikveh, single or double pool.

And has NOTHING to do with gaining power. Read my previous posts and you'll get why. #2 #17 Good people like you, fall prey of media hatred, against jews in general and orthodox in particular. The way they write an article (YNET e.g) ; is so loaded with incorrect data, and important omissions, that I would hardly blame an innocent - and may be not so religious - reader, of expressing some degree of disgust against orthodoxs. Media writers ARE well versed most times in the particular topic they choose, and unfortunately take advantage of this to move on their own agendas. I would suggest that in general you (and everybody else) do not "learn" about religion through the media, never ever. There are wonderful people out there willing to talk to you, and wonderful classes open for everyone in each place, and a host of awesome books. Use them all, these are trully public! GOOD LUCK PENINA!

The overwhelming secular majority of citizens in the State of Israel have abrogated their responsibility for all religious issues to the Orthodox and now the ultra Orthodox rabbis. The issue of Mikvas is just one in a long line of power struggles where, quite simply, the ultra Orthodox rabbis want to show who is boss. This was apparent even 20 years ago when the first leader of Shas was Minister of the Interior and in the battles of the institution of summer time admitted that even if summer was of advantage to everyone, including his Ultra Orthodox constituents, it was important to show the secular "from where the fish peed" and who was boss. This is a continuation of the "who is a Jew" farce. The question is not "who is a Jew" but "who is a rabbi". The American Orthodox are now feeling the same discrimination that the Conservative and Reform Jews have felt here forever. Their rabbis are not good enough either. Can anyone be surprised that their disgusting behavior and the record of the "rabbinic world" here in Israel will not lead to an explosion. Historically, this is how we Jews have always worked. Remember who we are dealing with: Metzger the corrupt liar, Amar the producer of exemplary children (his son is jail for violence), Gafni the accused rapist, the Shas serial corruption portfolio club, the Dayanim of the Beit Din who all happen to be related to one another (perhaps they should go and work at the Airports Authority and the Electric Company where family connections are a must) etc. etc.

me a clear picture as to why a non-orthodox person cannot use these mikvehs. Someone, please give me a clear explanation - based on halacha or something more concrete than the talkbacks you have refered me to.

My wedding preparations were a misery due to rabbis who didn't recognize my shul in Montreal ( orthodox!!!) nor my husbands in England, and forced me to go to the mikve, which I regard as a filthy pot of water. The woman there touched me in an intrusive way but didn't find the magic secret, I was not clean because I timed it not to get pregnant during my honeymoon. This is what I was reduced to, (and do you think I am the only one)playing games with people who think THEY invented Judaism. Everyone can worship in their own way.

If you think keeping kosher is out of date and driving on Shabbos doesn't matter then what the hell is all the fuss about a mikveh other than to provoke the Orthodox and make them angry? There is no law in Israel prohibiting the Reform and Conservative from raising funds or obtaining state funds to buil a mikveh. Moaners, groaners, whiners and complainers just annoy others for no good reason.

Non orthodox jews can use these mikvehs and they do it all the time. So this is not the isse here. Reforms claim that they are not let into a mikve TO CONVERT A PROSELITE. This is the issue, and not their general use by all the public So why do orthodox rabbis stop reforms from doing so? Very simple: reforms cannot be awarded any sort of " halachic passive approval" of a TOTALLY non- halachic convertion. Explanation: A non jew who wants to join the jewish religion should 1) Like the jewish religion in her integrity. Not the way reforms treat our religion: "this I like , that I don't so who needs to keep it?" 2) Inmmerse him/herself in jewish Torah, law, jewish history etc. for her to understand fully what she will have to live up to for the rest of her days. This can take, when responsibly done, about a year or so. 3)Take the standard examination in the local rabbinal court 4) and finally, inmmersing himself in a mikveh. What reforms would like their converts to do is just to dip in a Mikveh, and opus copus you emerge Jewish. Since reforms themselves dont keep Torah and mitzvoth, not even vaguely, their converts are equally shaped after this philosophy. In short they are not Jewish. Because they never took 1) 2) and 3). And as for 4) they seem to be willing, probably because it's so quick and does not need long comitment. And here the core. Because 4) is the final formal ritual deciding step for convertion. Remember that taking 1) 2) and 3) does NOT make you Jewish, without inmersion. So here comes the problem. By taking upon themselves the only formal ritual these "converts" might get their convesion approved (they think). And this is dowright hypocrital, false and manipulative. Mainstream judaism cannot take these people as Jews when they only "converted" to marry their jewish espouse. And didn'd even take 1) 2) and 3) Any one can convert out of love for G-d. So any honest person won't even think of cheating on G-d in the fist place. If they so much like judaism, they are willing to take 613 mitzvoths. Not ONLY the few they like, if And dont get confused. Many secular jewish people identify themselves, if they had a choice, with reforms rather than with orthodoxs. Big mistake, secular Jews are still JEWS IN EVERY RESPECT. A pity media works so hard in stripping their soul out. Reforms have a religion onto their own - BE CAREFUL VERY CAREFUL

Hey guys do you really want us to believe that you observe all the 613 mitzvot? Do you really expect us to believe that you exactly know what Hashem wants? The Torah is not just law, it also has a "spirit" which should first of all make us better, a light among the nations, goy kadosh ve mamlechet kohanim. Halakha is beautiful but judaism survives with such a strength also because it evolved through the centuries, or should we still kill those who work on shabat by lapidation as Moshe told us? You wanna please Hashem? Don't be so quick judging and blaming the others yehudim just because they don't observe some of the 613 mitzvot.

Ultimately, souls do not convert souls or selves. GOD converts souls. The human body is mostly water and a Mikveh is a convention used to ritually symbolize the difference between a spiritually dehydrated conscience and a revived soul. Nobody walks on water without confidence and that means faith in one's conscience. There is nothing unorthodaox about the ambition of Conservative and Progressive Judaism. They seek to make a temple of the body as well as a temple of the mind and the body they are seeking is a nation triumphant. Let the doors open to anyone who seeks to add his or her corporeal will to the Divine Will and let peace irrigate the lives of all who pray for harmony. But do not confuse politics with religion before this can happen. Israel is a secular State. Hypocrites take a bath in mythology and tears. The faithful to the living GOD are immersed in the living GOD. Not one human being can create one molecule of H20. Nobody walks on water. Nobody should be denied a Mikveh who does not deny the Living GOD who created it. AMEN.

1) thanks for thinking we are perfect, couln't agree any more on that, so we already started on the right foot 2) "taking upon oneself 613" is the standard expression for someone who trully embraces judaism in its totality. Clearly , albeit not to you, no one can, or should keep all them. Simply because some pertain only to cohanim, some only to men, some only to women, some only to judges and the list goes on. No one here spoke about stoning to death others, so you better retract on your words. But I guess you spoke out of pure ignorance, since may this topic isn't clear for you. We Jews believe in Torah , written and oral, and that include the teachings and rulings of our sages. That's why, thanks to these rabbis we couldnt stone you to death. They decreed that certain laws are unapplicable as long as there's no sanhedrin. Life and death is one of those. There are a myriad of other examples on how Halacha developed over the centuries. GOT IT????? AS for Jewish "spirit" , I couldn't agree with you anymore either. The thing is that when dealing with an halachic issue, as conversion, halacha (which in Hebrew means law) is exactly what we need to talk about. So forget about getting people stonned and placing judaism in some spiritual realm devoid of body and law Thanks for your time anyways. you've asked legitimate questions GOOD LUCK IN WHATEVER YOU DO

Hardly ever heard so much BS

TO Gabriela ben Ari- All comments are precise and pertinents. I am not a ultra-ortodox or ortodox, and sometimes I go to a Mikveh. Everytime is a grateful experience, both physically and spiritually, but it is basically a personal experience., I feel now that I have to go more frequently there. A very good book about this subject i s THE WATERS OF EDEN by ARIEH KAPLAN. To Reuven Brauner --- I never had the oportunity to talk with you, but I have tenths of your publications about every important facet of Judaism ( excelents monographs .compiled, translated and published by you). I am sure that your presence in the talkbacks will enrich this site.

thanks for your answer, even though i don't need a translation of the word halacha, since i was born and raised in a jewish family. the issue of the mikveh is, as i see it, not only an issue of respecting halacha or not, but also an issue of religious freedom in medinat israel, where, in my opinion all the Jews should have the same rights, orthodox or not. Anyway, thanks and good luck