Since you are a teacher at HUC, I am quite surprised at the weakness of your argument. Whilst I agree with that the Kibbutz should have chosen a liberal form of shul to match it philosophy, I have to agree with #11 that you gave no reason to choose Reform. Negating orthodoxy does not equal and argument for Reform. If anything, it equals an argument for the Conservative Movement otherwise known as Masorti. Masorti respects the demands of modernity whilst simultaneously trying to Conserve traditional Judaism. Masorti/Conservative was the ONLY religious movement which supported Zionism from the outset. Masorti has its own kibbutzim both in the Arava and Galil. Their success is based on their embracement of the kibbutz philosophy and Masorti ideology, NOT on the negation of anyone elses philosophy or ideology.

Enough with your nonsense Allen. Your lengthy responses are all waffle. Cut to chase. Either you accept that The Torah, The Talmud and The Halacha are the true basis of Judism or not. If you do then fine and the Guardians of this Masora are only the Orthodox as the reform and variants don't accept this. If not, then frankly speaking it makes no difference whether you pray with the Reform or the Buddhists. And good luck to you , but I hope you find your way back to the true path of your fathers.

I really don't give a shit. Let anybody who wants to connect with the Almighty do it in a way that suits them and is meaningful to them.

RW, I don't have children and at this point in my life I won't, so it doesn't matter to me. Judaism survived for millenia and will continue to survive with or without orthodoxy because it is strong and because jews of all stripes will ensure its survival. This assimilation bull is nothing more than a pretext to cram a certain dogma down peoples throats in order to control their lives. Bottom line is, don't force your dogma on those that don't care for it. I don't recall ever learning that Talmud and Halacha were given at Sinai. You said "it is Torah Sh'bal Pe" which means it was an oral tradition that was passed down and was eventually written down. I don't consider them an integral part of my jewishness. Simply because I don't consider them important to me doesn't mean I am deviating from anything. I don't blindly accept any position that says things ought to stay the way they are simply because that's the way they have always been. I am perfefctly comfortable being secular and don't feel any less jewish than you do. Your orthodoxy does not make you any more righteous than me. In the end we will both be judge on our merits and the mitzvots we performed.

Either you don't read or you don't understand and worse your views are the views of failure. We are Jewish today because our ancestors ( and yours Allen ) , believed in the Torah, The Talmud and The Halacha. Through times of decimations, persecution and worse, they kept going because of this belief. This is the belief of the Orthodox. Then along come some variants and say,you got it wrong ,lets change it cause its to onerous for us who want to live a more secular and goyisha life. You are welcome to do that Allen but don't you dare come around and say to us that this is correct. Answer the Question Allen, who gave these variants the right and authority to change the rules and standards given to us by the Almighty?

Three cheers for Rabbi Dr. Dalia Sara Marx! She has said what needed to be said about establishing an orthodox synagogue on the kibbutz. Orthodoxy in Israel is largely associated with bigotry, racism and erosion of human rights. It has become doctrinaire, intolerant and political. Every Jewish festival has become a burden and is filled with rituals of what one may do or may not do. Orthodoxy has estranged many Jews. The Reform approach is more liberal and can attract those Jews who have become estranged from the intolerant and macabre-style orthodoxy that has influenced important political decisions. The kibbutz movement, whose ideology is progressive, is not compatible with bigoted Orthodoxy that unfortunately denies religious freedom to other Judaism streams to marry couples that wish to marry in a reform ceremony and practice their Judaism freely. What about the Orthodox attitude towards mixed marriages, which has caused much suffering? I sometimes wonder whether rabbis of the Orthodox Judaism are not sliding back into the Middle Ages? Does Degania deserve that?

This is my last post on this topic because we will never see eye to eye on the subject. Go on and live your lives as suits you. I wish you nothing but the best. But, pleasse, don't force me to accept something I don't care to accept. The difference between us is that I don't insist that you become secular whereas from your comments it is evident that you attempted to convince me that orthodoxy is the true way and that I should abandon my way of life. Your arguments that orhodoxy is the only way because that's the way it has always been and that Talmud and Halacha were given at Sinai may be valid for you but not for me. I do not agree with those arguments. I am perfectly happy being secular and will continue to practice my faith in ways that have spirituality and meaning to me. Good luck to you both and may the Almighty shine his light upon you.

What a load of bunkum. Othordoxy is the only growth sector in Judisim. It's people like you who feed on the errors, fault, stupidy of a few and try to make it out to be Mt Hermon when it is a pebble, that are the real problem. Go clean up your own houses first before throwing stones at others. How come you can barely find a Sephardi in your midst. Even the most non observant expect their Rabbi's will not be driving cars on Shabbath and eating Non Kosher. Nor do they expect to have coffee breaks on Yom Kippur. And just who gave these Variants that you praise the authority to change the Almight's gift to us?

I agree with you 100%. The way things are going Israel, it will soon become Talibanisrael. It is high time for Israel to follow the American model of separation of church and state. Theology has no place in political discourse because of the risks of becoming a theocracy ala Iran.

People should have a choice in choosing the stream of Judaism with which they feel most comfortable. The problem is that Orthodox Judaism holds the monopoly on Judaism in Israel and exercises immense power in deny ing other Judaism streams to practice their faith according to their conscience. This is because there is no separation between state and orthodox synagogue forcing people into religious situations against their will from the cradle to the grave! Reform does NOT propagate eating non-kosher or driving on Shabbat. It is left to their adherents to choose their own lifestyle. There are Sephardim who are members of the Reform Movement even in Israel. Many secular Jews who support Orthodoxy do drive to synagogue on Shabbat but park their cars at a distance from the synagogue so that others do not see them. They expect observants of the Orthodox persuasion not to drive on Shabbat if that is what you meant.This is hypocrisy!

"Reform does NOT propagate eating non-kosher or driving on Shabbat. It is left to their adherents to choose their own lifestyle." Unless you pick an Orthodox shul, as this article attests to. " People should have a choice in choosing the stream of Judaism with which they feel most comfortable." Would you wish to give this same power to Messianic Judaism? Should they also be legitimized?

"Would you wish to give this same power to Messianic Judaism? Should they also be legitimized?" Yes, as another branch of Christianity because of the belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah that distuinguishes it from all streams of Judaism. Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity. It should be viewed in the same light as other religions which are not part of the Jewish faith. It should have autonomy as other religions have for their observers. Reform Judaism is not Christianity, it is Judaism no less than orthodoxy.

"Reform does NOT propagate eating non-kosher or driving on Shabbat or have coffee breaks on Yom Kippur. It is left to their adherents to choose their own lifestyle." "Unless you pick an Orthodox shul, as this article attests to". This is NOT what I meant at all. This was mentioned in #69 and I was referring to a statement where the writer had hinted that Reform rabbis eat non-kosher food and drive to the synagogue on Shabbat. The writer of #72 did not read #69 and was quoting me out of context entirely.

"Yes, as another branch of Christianity because of the belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah that distuinguishes it from all streams of Judaism." Messianic Jews would certainly disagree with you. Then they can, with good reason ask, who are you to tell them what they believe is not Jewish? After all, that's exactly what Reform asks traditional Judaism...

And I suppose Dalia Marx would accept that we lower the standards of all doctors when those from countries with lower standards come to a country with higher standards? Or should we lower the qualifications for such as police or fire fighters because someone who can't (or won't) meet the standards wants to serve? I suggest that the standards be kept at the HIGHEST level so that ALL may attend and not violate the standards that have served Jews world-wide for so many generations. Perhaps it is SHE who needs to change HER standards, and not expect others to lower theirs to accomodate her.

If Messianic Jews disagree that does not make them Jewish. Belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah is not Judaism. Adherents may be of Jewish descent but religiously they are not practicing Judaism. You are tainting Messianic Jews and Reform Jews with the same brush and this is false. Reform Jews, like Orthodox Jews do NOT believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Belief in Jesus Christ is Christian and this puts Messianic Jews in that category.

Leave the poor Rabbi Marx alone, poor woman probably married a shiksa!

"Belief in Jesus Christ is Christian and this puts Messianic Jews in that category. " So what is Jewish belief and what is Christian belief? The Reform Movement doesn't even believe in Moshiach for example. They believe in 'messianic times' brought on by social justice, etc... At least Messianic Judaism believes in Moshiach, albeit the wrong guy. They don't believe in keeping Shabbos, Kashrus, etc... according to Jewish law that has been practiced for 3300 years. Judaism isn't defined solely on who Moshiach is. Even if it was, Reform is out of the box for not believing in him. My point is, Reform came along around 150 years ago and made some VERY drastic changes in their beliefs and laws which are in complete disagreement with how Judaism has been since Sinai.

It hurts to read things like these. You call yoursefl a rabbi, but tell people to break Hashem's divine laws. You people are pathetic.