Why you cling on to this pathetic argument when you yourself know that ... "Frankly it is not even relevant anymore for us, ,..." Who cares ....?... Let it go ... Palestinians are real and we have to deal with them... (and stop trying to tell me that jews were once called "Palestinians"... it is false plain and simple)

Then, Ray will find the justice and dignity that he seeks. Otherwise, he will continue in his spritual torment

Edan, you put to shame my University ( If you are UBG student) Edan, the only reason I answer your nonsense is because Ben Gurion University is a great institution but your ignorance make it look bad. As a graduate, I am ashamed of you. First, I said all I had to say about the issue in #11. You however bugged me in 17, 33, 50. I recommended you to go to great University library and read about the times prior to 1948. You refused, but still try to promote your ignorance. It is very easy to find answers in library or on line, but you for whatever reason don’t do it. This is not a sign of intelligent young man. In my times research and critical thinking was strongly encouraged. Anyway, I will give you quick reference, unfortunately I am busy, the rest please find for yourself. This is not the matter of opinion, Edan, we talking facts here. Please don’t embarrass my university anymore, Edan, please. Childish..? Thats the best you could come up with...?? Instead of calling you names I refuted your arguments each time... you can't come up with any substantial argument so "childish" is your attack..?? I will let outsiders reading our dialogue decide who is childish... The Mexicans are not parrallel to the Palestinians in any way shape or form. Period.>>>I gave you this example in # 37 to show that Palestinians prefer to live in Israel for the same reason Mexicans prefer America. That’s it. Please reread # 37 and be specific<<<< It is childish to compare apples to oranges. Jews were never called Palestinians. Period.>>> Yes, they were. Since you are lazy chap, I did some clicking for you. Is Michigan University is good enough reference or you prefer Al Smutz? Here is the link to follow . http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BYSsFNo6jz8J:www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/overview.html+Before+1948+Jews+from+the+area+called+themselves+Palestinian.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 Lazy Edan look at #5 Palestinians. Read :” BEFORE 1948 JEWS FROM THE AREA CALLED THEMSELVES PALESTINIAN” Copish??? I am not your PhD, please do your own research, genius.<<< It is childish not to admit that you are wrong. And it is very childish to be condescending (not sure you know what that means) to someone who you know nothing about, especially when it is because that someone has proven you wrong twice already.... >>>Edan, you are funny. So now I should expect your apology? You already apologized once and I accepted it. Don’t you think this is pathetic?<<<

I am a student, if you must know, 28 years old and I have been in Israel 12 years now (not including the first 4 years of my life). Served in a combat unit...You may have once lived in Israel, but you are far removed from it's present reality. And don't worry, I read plenty of books... Of course you are not here to argue with me- you are here to spread your propoganda... We've all heard it before, though, so do us all a favor and give it a rest...>>> Edan, you claimed recently that I am judging Israel without being here and doing the military service. You apologized once for this jumping to false conclusions.. You know, 28 years ago in 1978, the year you were born, I served in Lebanon fighting PLO ( Litany operation) If you would see what your friends, the Palestinians did to Lebanese civilians, you would think differently about them . They did what al Qaida in Iraq and worse. So this is not propaganda, but life experience, Edan. Wise up.<<< Why you cling on to this pathetic argument when you yourself know that ... "Frankly it is not even relevant anymore for us, ,..." Who cares ....?... Let it go ... Palestinians are real and we have to deal with them... (and stop trying to tell me that jews were once called "Palestinians"... it is false plain and simple)<<< Oh, yes, I forgot the link. Here it is under #5 Palestinians http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BYSsFNo6jz8J:www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/overview.html+Before+1948+Jews+from+the+area+called+themselves+Palestinian.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 Do you think BTW University of Michigan is good enough reference?<<< British mandate? Are you trying to tell me that the British reffered to the jews as "Palestinians"..>>> Yes, this is EXACTLY what I claim, genius.<<<.?..So I guess the Balfour Declaration (have you heard of that?) states that the "Palestinians" have a right to their own homeland in what is now Israel...right?? <<

new comment

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

Edan, you put to shame my University ( If you are UBG student) Edan, the only reason I answer your nonsense is because Ben Gurion University is a great institution but your ignorance make it look bad. As a graduate, I am ashamed of you. First, I said all I had to say about the issue in #11. You however bugged me in 17, 33, 50. I recommended you to go to great University library and read about the times prior to 1948. You refused, but still try to promote your ignorance. It is very easy to find answers in library or on line, but you for whatever reason don’t do it. This is not a sign of intelligent young man. In my times research and critical thinking was strongly encouraged. Anyway, I will give you quick reference, unfortunately I am busy, the rest please find for yourself. This is not the matter of opinion, Edan, we talking facts here. Please don’t embarrass my university anymore, Edan, please. Childish..? Thats the best you could come up with...?? Instead of calling you names I refuted your arguments each time... you can't come up with any substantial argument so "childish" is your attack..?? I will let outsiders reading our dialogue decide who is childish... The Mexicans are not parrallel to the Palestinians in any way shape or form. Period.>>>I gave you this example in # 37 to show that Palestinians prefer to live in Israel for the same reason Mexicans prefer America. That’s it. Please reread # 37 and be specific<<<< It is childish to compare apples to oranges. Jews were never called Palestinians. Period.>>> Yes, they were. Since you are lazy chap, I did some clicking for you. Is Michigan University is good enough reference or you prefer Al Smutz? Here is the link to follow . http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BYSsFNo6jz8J:www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/overview.html+Before+1948+Jews+from+the+area+called+themselves+Palestinian.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 Lazy Edan look at #5 Palestinians. Read :” BEFORE 1948 JEWS FROM THE AREA CALLED THEMSELVES PALESTINIAN” Copish??? I am not your PhD, please do your own research, genius.<<< It is childish not to admit that you are wrong. And it is very childish to be condescending (not sure you know what that means) to someone who you know nothing about, especially when it is because that someone has

I am a student, if you must know, 28 years old and I have been in Israel 12 years now (not including the first 4 years of my life). Served in a combat unit...You may have once lived in Israel, but you are far removed from it's present reality. And don't worry, I read plenty of books... Of course you are not here to argue with me- you are here to spread your propoganda... We've all heard it before, though, so do us all a favor and give it a rest...>>> Edan, you claimed recently that I am judging Israel without being here and doing the military service. You apologized once for this jumping to false conclusions.. You know, 28 years ago in 1978, the year you were born, I served in Lebanon fighting PLO ( Litany operation) If you would see what your friends, the Palestinians did to Lebanese civilians, you would think differently about them . They did what al Qaida in Iraq and worse. So this is not propaganda, but life experience, Edan. Wise up.<<< Why you cling on to this pathetic argument when you yourself know that ... "Frankly it is not even relevant anymore for us, ,..." Who cares ....?... Let it go ... Palestinians are real and we have to deal with them... (and stop trying to tell me that jews were once called "Palestinians"... it is false plain and simple)<<< Oh, yes, I forgot the link. Here it is under #5 Palestinians http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BYSsFNo6jz8J:www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/overview.html+Before+1948+Jews+from+the+area+called+themselves+Palestinian.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 Do you think BTW University of Michigan is good enough reference?<<< British mandate? Are you trying to tell me that the British reffered to the jews as "Palestinians"..>>> Yes, this is EXACTLY what I claim, genius.<<<.?..So I guess the Balfour Declaration (have you heard of that?) states that the "Palestinians" have a right to their own homeland in what is now Israel...right?? <<

new comment

Edan, you put to shame my University ( If you are UBG student) Edan, the only reason I answer your nonsense is because Ben Gurion University is a great institution but your ignorance make it look bad. As a graduate, I am ashamed of you. First, I said all I had to say about the issue in #11. You however bugged me in 17, 33, 50. I recommended you to go to great University library and read about the times prior to 1948. You refused, but still try to promote your ignorance. It is very easy to find answers in library or on line, but you for whatever reason don’t do it. This is not a sign of intelligent young man. In my times research and critical thinking was strongly encouraged. Anyway, I will give you quick reference, unfortunately I am busy, the rest please find for yourself. This is not the matter of opinion, Edan, we talking facts here. Please don’t embarrass my university anymore, Edan, please. Childish..? Thats the best you could come up with...?? Instead of calling you names I refuted your arguments each time... you can't come up with any substantial argument so "childish" is your attack.. ?? I will let outsiders reading our dialogue decide who is childish... The Mexicans are not parrallel to the Palestinians in any way shape or form. Period.>>>I gave you this example in # 37 to show that Palestinians prefer to live in Israel for the same reason Mexicans prefer America. That’s it. Please reread # 37 and be specific<<<< It is childish to compare apples to oranges. Jews were never called Palestinians. Period.>>> Yes, they were. Since you are lazy chap, I did some clicking for you. Is Michigan University is good enough reference or you prefer Al Smutz? Here is the link to follow . http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:BYSsFNo6jz8J:www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/overview.html+Before+1948+Jews+from+the+area+called+themselves+Palestinian.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 Lazy Edan look at #5 Palestinians. Read :” BEFORE 1948 JEWS FROM THE AREA CALLED THEMSELVES PALESTINIAN” Copish??? I am not your PhD, please do your own research, genius.<<< It is childish not to admit that you are wrong. And it is very childish to be condescending (not sure you know what that means) to someone who you know nothing about, especially when it is because that someone has proven you wrong twice already.... >>>Edan, you are funny. So now I should expect your apology? You already apologized once and I accepted it. Don’t you think this is pathetic?<<<

calm down, youre getting obsessive

I could sit here and prove to you why your link is a crock of but I won't waste my time... You served in the military...lived in Israel... Great...!! You still don't know jack ... You have already made a big enough fool of yourself... there is nothing more to add And for #71 -the idiot that hides behind "Palestiniansaremyth" moniker - ....

...is from home. Ron you are a loser..>>>name calling is not an argument. This is a sign of immaturity. Grow up, Edan<<<.And #71 is just plain retarded... I could sit here and prove to you why your link is a crock of but I won't waste my time... >>> Interesting excuse. I know is humiliating to be exposed as ignorant, but this excuse....very fanny. Does is mean you will come up with an answer when you have time? No rush. I ‘ll wait...ha,ha,ha <<< You served in the military...lived in Israel... Great...!! You still don't know jack ...>>> Name calling is not an argument but admission of defeat in argument<<< You have already made a big enough fool of yourself... there is nothing more to add >>> once again name calling. Any kid from North Hollywood can do it. No University diploma needed<<< And for #71 -the idiot that hides behind "Palestiniansaremyth" moniker - .... >>> name calling again, since you don’t have anything else to say...pathetic<<< Edan , Beer Sheva (06.20.06) >>> To cap, you provided in ONE POST: 1. Excuse ( no time to answer) Funny 2. Called names: loser, don’t know jack, made a big enough fool of yourself, idiot, moniker, retarded. Apparently, you can study in great university, but culture is from home. In Israel we call it shiah-shiah

Joy, thank you for your concern. Unfortunately I couldn't get my message inside the talkback box. I still don't know if it is my computer, or Ynet, but if you examine my previous post it is cut off for some reason. If you are techi, I would like you to advice on this issue. If you don't have anything to say, why bother? We all see your profound wisdom and PROGRESSIVENESS. Sorry I am not "progressive" enough for your "wisdom"

Just learn from Jewlicious, Edan. He (or she) asked very legitimate and intelligent question about Palestinians in #12. Instead of name-calling. I answered him respectfully in #14. I hope he understood the answer or at least considered it. Most likely he agreed with me. He didn’t call names. No need to insult. Nobody has a monopoly on truth. The whole idea of talkback is to exchange ideas and opinions, not to insult. This is not popularity contest, Edan. I personally for Palestinian state. They have a very good case for the state, why Edan and others need to invent “ Palestinian nation?” And if you think they are a nation, why you can’t slowly explain why? When was the birth of this nation? ( As I asked in #14)Edan didn’t provide answers, but insults, instead. If you say it happened in the last 40-60 years, you have a case. Nobody sane would suggest that they would like to create their own state if Israel would not exist. The fact is they never asked for their own state before 1967, just Israel destruction.

Hi #58 ... it's true, Arabs do not pronounce the "P" sound ... I did a comedy show in "Mizzoura" (Missouri) and some of the Arab Muslims there did a comedy padoy of the FOX show "Cops" called "Cobs." It was very good. In Arabic, the proper term is Filasteen, you are correct. Thanks goes out to TM and others for the courtesy and dialogue. We can believe what we eachw ant to believe about the past, but we should all agree on the future. Ray hanania www.hanania.com

Glad to see you're still doing that thing you do! Sorry to say I disagree with you, but it's a pleasure to do so. There were actually a number of Palestinian armies running amok in Palestine before the so called Arab intervention. There was the Arab Liberation army of about 6000 men founded by the Arab league and lead by Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. It was busy strangling Jewish settlements and massacring Jewish convoys. There was the Holy War Army (sounds familier in a way), lead by Hasan Salama and Abd al Qadir al-Husayni which was laying siege on Jerusalem. This was the army of ex-Waffen SS recruiter Haj Amin al-Husseini. Who after his activities in Nazi occupied Europe had returned to Palestine to continue doing whatever it was that the 13th Waffen SS mountain division had been doing in Europe. He was very proficiant at killing his own. This army was supported by a number of veterans of the British army but collapsed after the death of Abdl Qadr. Maybe that's how we got started on that targeted execution thing. I know it is supposed to be civilized to let the grunts slug it out while the commanders zip tea and chat to the ladies. But that sounds to me a lot less civilized than killing the leaders and letting the soldiers go home...Oh well it's just a thought. There were also a lot of local militia groups, the National guard, which appeared in towns and cities. No numbers available on them. According to Wikipeda there were number of Palestinian paramilitary youth organisations. Their numbers change from source to source. Some say 3000, others 10.000. Anyway, that's in the past. We won, you lost. Let's make up and be friends.

I had no desire to do another round because we differ on many points. I did feel you answered me sincerely and politely, but I disagreed with many of your points. I will say one thing: it is not our place to decide whether there is a Palestinian nation or not. Just as they have no say in my right to self-determination and just as we clearly reject what many Palestinians say about our right to nationhood, our history, etc., I believe it is wrong of us to deligitimize them in the same way. As Jews, we have a right to self-determination and as Palestinians, they have a right to theirs, even if they decided on this three hours ago. By the way, while it's true that Palestinian nationalism did not influence a majority of Palestinians until about 40 years ago, let's not be too self-righteous about this. There were Palestinian nationalists around 1915 and in the mid-30s there were definitely sparks of nationalism among certain members of the Palestinian elites. Also, to remind you, Zionism was far from a popular movement in the international Jewish communities even as recently as the 1930s. Israel exists and it is the Jewish state. Just as we do not question that and refuse to allow others to question us about it in the same way a Mexican or Canadian would refuse to justify their existence or nationhood, it is not our place and we do not have the right to dictate to the Palestinians what they are or are not.

I had no desire to do another round because we differ on many points. I did feel you answered me sincerely and politely, but I disagreed with many of your points. >>> I don’t have a problem with your desire. This talkback is optional. No need to reply<<< I will say one thing: it is not our place to decide whether there is a Palestinian nation or not. Just as they have no say in my right to self-determination and just as we clearly reject what many Palestinians say about our right to nationhood, our history, etc., I believe it is wrong of us to deligitimize them in the same way. >>> This is NOT the point. This is of course worthless from practical point of view. The importance is in following: Their purpose is to convince the world that they are “native” people, who had a title on the land previously in history. The fact is they NEVER had any national structure ( unfortunately you don’t read my posts carefully and therefore simply ignore facts). Your opinions are fine, but they have nothing to do with reality. (read my post #11 CAREFULLY). I provided many FACTS. I NEVER base my posts of merely opinions, without facts, like you are.<<< As Jews, we have a right to self-determination and as Palestinians, they have a right to theirs, even if they decided on this three hours ago. By the way, while it's true that Palestinian nationalism did not influence a majority of Palestinians until about 40 years ago, let's not be too self-righteous about this. There were Palestinian nationalists around 1915 and in the mid-30s there were definitely sparks of nationalism among certain members of the Palestinian elites. >>> Nationalism is one thing, nation is another, but I don’t disagree on this <<< Also, to remind you, Zionism was far from a popular movement in the international Jewish communities even as recently as the 1930s. >>> This has nothing to do with our discussion. We are not compare nationalist movements. here. The question was if Palestinians are a nation, not if they are nationalistic. This is a big difference. <<< Israel exists and it is the Jewish state. Just as we do not question that and refuse to allow others to question us about it in the same way a Mexican or Canadian would refuse to justify their existence or nationhood, it is not our place and we do not have the right to dictate to the Palestinians what they are or are not. >>> Once again you are confused here. This is NOT a question of political correctness. What kind of logic is that? Just because Israel exist as a Jewish state, Palestinians are a nation? This is NOT about “balance” and “fairness” we are talking about. TM. You asked questions which I answered. You however don’t have ANYTHING to say to my post #11. I respect your OPINIONS, however you don’t base your opinions on SOLID FACTS. Just because something you say SOUNDS right doesn’t mean it is FACTUALLY right. As Albert Einstein said: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.... And TM, you don’t have to answer me if you have nothing to say...<<<

I agree with much of what you write TM and think you hit the nail on the head on some issues. Unfortunately, here, the nail is badly bent out of shape. But at least we can agree and disagree respectfully. That leads to solutions and reinforces hope. For a few (1) others: My father came to the US in 1926 on a Provisional Palestinian Nationality Document. Hanania, by the way, is a Hebrew name which means we converted from Judaism. So what does that make Palestinian Christians and Muslims who converted from Judaism in terms of "a claim to the land"? The very same assertions against Palestinian rights can be made against Jewish national rights in Palestine. But what's the point? Well, some on this list love to listen to themselves and compare themselves to Einstein. The only reason these issues are brought up is to provoke conflict, not discussion. It's a part of a hate-pattern by some. They are not interested in discussion, just dictates. There own. The rest of us schleppers have to live in the real world. The best way to deal with the "yadda, yadda, yadda" is to ignore it, and know that there are many good people out there who won't be bullied by a handful of loudmouths who post, what, 27 times in one talkbalk string? That's funny. I think someone really needs some attention :) Ray Hanania www.hanania.com

I agree with much of what you write TM and think you hit the nail on the head on some issues. Unfortunately, here, the nail is badly bent out of shape. But at least we can agree and disagree respectfully. That leads to solutions and reinforces hope. >>> Agree with whom you want. It doesn’t make it true<<< For a few (1) others: My father came to the US in 1926 on a Provisional Palestinian Nationality Document. Hanania, by the way, is a Hebrew name which means we converted rom Judaism. So what does that make Palestinian Christians and Muslims who converted from Judaism in terms of "a claim to the land"? >>> Funny hypothesis . It means that Russian or German Jew with respectfully Russian and German last names converted from Eastern Orthodox or Lutheran branches of Christianity? Nonsense. There is a language called Aramaic. This language was as popular as English during times of Jesus. If you read texts in Aramaic you can see how those two languages are similar with Hebrew. I learned this language a bit when I wanted to read Zohar in original. ( Zohar is the main body of works in Kabbalah written in Arameic) Just because you name have meaning in Hebrew doesn’t mean a thing. It only shows your level of ignorance.<<< The very same assertions against Palestinian rights can be made against Jewish national rights in Palestine. But what's the point? Well, some on this list love to listen to themselves and compare themselves to Einstein. >>> The importance here is simple.( I will explain again, since you didn’t get it) This premise gives you Falisteenians a PEDIGREE as a “ natives” Not very knowledgeable people base their opinion on this hypothesis. The same way Christian justification for their religion is that they are “ the new Jews”. The same way here; there is no Palestinian if there is no Israel. Just “Arab” remains” Even you know it deep down... The only reason these issues are brought up is to provoke conflict, not discussion. It's a part of a hate-pattern by some. They are not interested in discussion, just dictates. There own. >>>> Hate, hate, hate . Typical Hanania. Nobody hates you , shcwantz. We Jews are too smart to hate. Look what hate did to your brothers...Discussions bring true knowledge. True knowledge brings understanding. True understanding brings solutions. Your ignorance brings dead end. You want to be right, not to get to the truth. Then you thank those who agrees with you. Those who disagree are “haters” Pathetic Ray...<<< The rest of us schleppers have to live in the real world. The best way to deal with the "yadda, yadda, yadda" is to ignore it, and know that there are many good people out there who won't be bullied by a handful of loudmouths who post, what, 27 times in one talkback string? >>> We cannot ignore your "yadda, yadda, yadda", because you write for important paper, unfortunately. Your ignorance must be confronted for this reason only. Otherwise I agree. Your “articles” are worthless as many posts show...<<< That's funny. I think someone really needs some attention :) >>> The whole purpose of talkbacks is to get attention for ones opinions and ideas. Nothing wrong about it. I wonder why you write so many “ articles”, just for self promotion? Not to get “ some attention”? Why you approached Ynet with your “articles” in the first place? When you lack intellect and integrity, pitiful EGO feeding remains the only purpose of your activity...<<<

Ron, You seem to agree that the Palestinians have nationalism but then you claim they are not a nation. Here's a decent article at wikipedia that should help sort out some issues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Principles_of_Nationalism If you want to make the claim that their nation is not a nation because there was never a sovereign Palestine, I won't dispute that point because it's clearly accurate. However, as the Wikipedia article shows, that does not preclude the Palestinians from having nationalism, being a nation or DEVELOPING into a nation. I believe their collective experience within the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict is a predominant factor in their developing nationalism and their self-identification as a nation. Think about it this way: does a Saudi or an Iraqi relate to the land inside the Green Line or to Jerusalem in the same way as does a Palestinian? Of course not. For the Arab, even the staunch Pan-Arabist or the devout Muslim, these may be Arab lands but are no different than the lands in Lebanon or Kuwait. However, for the Palestinian the sense of belonging is a personal and family-oriented one and is inherently different than, say, the Pan-Arabist's view in that it emphasizes the land of what they wish would be their country and which currently comprises Israel, Gaza and Judea and Samaria (as well as Jordan, I believe, and as recent Hamas actions indicate).

You seem to agree that the Palestinians have nationalism but then you claim they are not a nation. Here's a decent article at wikipedia that should help sort out some issues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Principles_of_Nationalism If you want to make the claim that their nation is not a nation because there was never a sovereign Palestine, I won't dispute that point because it's clearly accurate. However, as the Wikipedia article shows, that does not preclude the Palestinians from having nationalism, being a nation or DEVELOPING into a nation. I believe their collective experience within the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict is a predominant factor in their developing nationalism and their self-identification as a nation. >>>Happy to say I totally agree with you. I said the same thing. Reread my posts. The key term here is DEVELOPING. I have red wikipedia article previously and it makes sense. However, it DOESN’T apply totally to “Palestinians”. The article talks about “ shared language, culture, and/or shared values”. Palestinians don’t have a distinctive language, no distinctive culture or any cultural “ values” ( unless you count suicide bombings) that makes them different from say Jordanians or Syrians. ( Please see my previous posts for details). We basically agree here. This is DEVELOPING nation 40- 60 years old. As you might know Philistines were non Semitic people of Greek origin who don’t have anything to do with “ Palestinians”, (or Filasteenians as Hanania will say) Since Hanania is very “knowlegeble” in languages ( He speaks “Chineese”,but not Arabic) he will tell you Philistines come from word “Plishtim” in Hebrew, meaning “invaders” .Those Greek people invaded the land from the sea. Those people were dispersed long time ago. Even Hanania don’t claim they are relatives...<<< Think about it this way: does a Saudi or an Iraqi relate to the land inside the Green Line or to Jerusalem in the same way as does a Palestinian? Of course not. For the Arab, even the staunch Pan-Arabist or the devout Muslim, these may be Arab lands but are no different than the lands in Lebanon or Kuwait. However, for the Palestinian the sense of belonging is a personal and family-oriented one and is inherently different than, say, the Pan-Arabist's view in that it emphasizes the land of what they wish would be their country and which currently comprises Israel, Gaza and Judea and Samaria (as well as Jordan, I believe, and as recent Hamas actions indicate). >>> Agree again. However your “the same way “may be misleading to some uninformed... All Arabs and Muslims ( at least the vast majority) want Israel to go to hell. In this Ahmadejehad, Hnaniye and Nassrallah are totally in agreement ( I personally think Abbas think the same, but he is practical) If you claim Palestinians feel “ the same way” about their villages towns and clans, you are correct. This is their home after all, so this is natural... Texans feel different about Texas, Californians ridicule New Yorkers and vise versa, but it still doesn’t make them a separate nation. TM, after all we agree. I enjoy your posts. We can respectfully disagree sometimes. What important is the truth and facts, not closed mindedness like in Hanania case. He agrees only with his handful supporters and claims others are “haters.” This is NOT intelligent exchange of ideas, but worthless time wasting...<<<

......all this scholar, scholar, scholar, scholar stuff. I know loads of scholars. Hundreds even. Their wives cook their meals, or their mothers do, they use slip-on shoes or velcro trainers and wear old style "sports" jackets with denims. At best. (Ray you better post this 'cos this just some GRRRRRRRRReat material) YNET; The Saturday night live of politics, (showbiz melody) "here we come!, razzle-dazzle-ronnelle-them. Tonights the night, we gonna make our point..................... tonight..........!" ----------------------------------------- Knowledge is nothing without wisdom. ---------------------------------------- Morality is the life blood of humanity. Im not saying i get it right, but you should consider the extent of your expression. Before you ANSWER me back something to the tune of "I'm better than them". SHOW it to me. I want to see sensitivity. Yes; we've all lost relatives, this sh*t is real, its a life and death situation, the future of all of us is upon us, it a bad situation, mercy-mercy-mercy, theres too many of our brothers dying and weve got to find a way to bring some lovin in here today, if not today then tomorrow, until we all reach higher ground And If you feel that lifes too hard, just go and have a talk with God. Just woah your horses. Its late ive had A drink and im off to bed. ( I have no tolernace) Lilatov ahi. (keep the noise down i want to get some sleep)

I'm glad you agree with me, Ron. ;-) Indeed, these days the Palestinians are a nation, even if a young one. When I wrote "developing," I didn't mean only that it is happening currently. If you re-read what I wrote, I do include the past. And my earlier point stands: even if they deem themselves a nation for simply the past 3 hours, that is their right and it is not up to us to deny them the right to self-detemination (not that it matters if we did). In this case, we are talking about 40 to 60 years, but you will admit they have been a very intense and intensive 40 to 60 years and are at least 2 generations deep for many Palestinians. "Palestinians don’t have a distinctive language, no distinctive culture or any cultural “ values”" They have a distinctive dialect, and even if Mr. Hanania doesn't speak the language, don't forget there are many Jews outside of Israel who don't speak Hebrew or any key Jewish dialect. Living far away in the diaspora does this to a person. As for a distinctive culture or values, I'm afraid that the Israelis and before that the Yishuv have given them one. This goes back to my point about how an Arab from Saudi or Iraq would relate to this land. You dismiss this point by saying, "If you claim Palestinians feel “ the same way” about their villages towns and clans, you are correct. This is their home after all, so this is natural... Texans feel different about Texas, Californians ridicule New Yorkers and vise versa, but it still doesn’t make them a separate nation. " But you are missing the importance of the land to our conflict and to the sense of identification of both sides in the conflict with respect to this land. It is not accidental that one finds images of the Dome of the Rock gracing the homes and businesses of many Palestinians who live inside and outside Israel. I, like you, reject the silly attempts to re-create biblical history by having the Palestinians take on Philistine or Caananite history without any evidence save for their desire to compete with Israelite history, but I have to acknowledge modern history. If you combine the ideas of the Wikipedia article - which essentially compiles some social and poli sci studies' foundations about nationalism and national identity - there is one element which is crucial in rounding off the sense of national identity and that is the self-perception of being part of a nation. The fact is that most Palestinians feel this sense of self-identification. It is also interesting to note that Arab-Israelis say in poll after poll that they would not wish to move to a newly created state of Palestine or even if the land was transferred to a newly created state and they remained in place, they would not seek to be part of that state but would prefer to remain in Israel. They, of course, did not experience the same losses or circumstances of the Palestinians who live outside of what is now the Green Line and therefore cannot identify with their cousins'...unique and distinctive culture. As for constructive dialogue, I believe that all sides here just need to be able to speak without attacking persons. Let's attack concepts, ideas and history. In this case you have an advantage over Ray Hanania since he is openly writing as himself. You know his writings, you know a lot about his life, you know his work and it's easy to research him. As such, he is much more vulnerable to personal attacks even when he is merely posting ideas and topics for discussion. He is posting a personal point of view when he writes, but he is tackling a much larger subject. Also, as a Palestinian abroad, he provides a window to another culture and we are well served to listen and learn, and yes, debate. I think these discussions would be better served if we kept the personal comments away and dealt with the issues at hand. There's certainly enough here to discuss. I'm done here. Peace to all.

Ron, tell me - who started with the personal attacks..? I called your ARGUMENT silly and you proceeded to mock my knowledge of Hebrew. I think we can now both agree that my language skills are not the issue at hand. Your condescending tone and attitude backfired on your ass when you realized i'm not just some loudmouth, uneducated, punk kid. As for your trusty source of information, that article goes on to say that some jews in the region STILL refer to themselves as Palestinians...... REALLY??? I sure didn't know that. It also says that the Palestinians consider themselves descendants of the ancient Philistines..... REALLY??? Cause the Palestinian muslims that I've talked to don't seem to believe that at all. (BTW the Philistines were NOT of Greek origin, although they sailed off for the greek islands apparently. Look up the Museum of the Philistines in Ashdod. I was there Ron). And Ronald R. Stockton...?? This is your Guru for political knowledge...?? Come on Ron, you can do better than THAT.. I try to base my opinions on facts as well as personal experience. For the latter of the two you must interact with the other side as well as your own. I doubt that you have done that. No jew was ever a Palestinian. The British always made it clear that there were Arabs and Jews, not Palestinians and Arabs. In any case I believe that Ray is correct 100% when he says that people who cling to this argument only promote hate instead of understanding and dialogue. And that is just what you are doing Ron. Think about it, if you were somehow miraculously able to convince all jews and Israelis that there is no Palestinian nation, would that increase the chances of peace and permanent solution...?? I think not. And besides, what does it matter if they fit neatly into the definition of "nation" or not ? Have they not been living where they are living for generations upon generations..? It seems to me, Ron, that you favor conflict over normalization. If this is not the case than you are sure doing a good job of confusing the hell out of people. (BTW moniker means nickname) Ray - I apologize for calling your cousin a liar.... It just doesn't seem logical at all and even though I value your opinions, I know there are many ways to present facts and figures. The figures which you presented in this article seem a little fishy, thats all...

Ron, glad you agree they're a nation >> DEVELOPING nation . Big difference<<< I'm glad you agree with me, Ron. ;-) >>> Just with the latest, not necessarily with ALL your opinions<<< Indeed, these days the Palestinians are a nation, even if a young one. When I wrote "developing," I didn't mean only that it is happening currently. If you re-read what I wrote, I do include the past. And my earlier point stands: even if they deem themselves a nation for simply the past 3 hours, that is their right and it is not up to us to deny them the right to self-detemination (not that it matters if we did). In this case, we are talking about 40 to 60 years, but you will admit they have been a very intense and intensive 40 to 60 years and are at least 2 generations deep for many Palestinians. >>> I wonder why you are trying to be more Catholic than a Pope. 1,2,3 generations is a matter of opinion. You however don’t have ANY answer to my questions in #11. Why not try to answer my questions instead of engaging in worthless debate? Fact- NOT opinions are important. Leftists don’t care about facts, just their doctrine. This is cowardice, TM.<<< "Palestinians don’t have a distinctive language, no distinctive culture or any cultural “ values”" They have a distinctive dialect, and even if Mr. Hanania doesn't speak the language, don't forget there are many Jews outside of Israel who don't speak Hebrew or any key Jewish dialect. Living far away in the diaspora does this to a person. As for a distinctive culture or values, I'm afraid that the Israelis and before that the Yishuv have given them one. This goes back to my point about how an Arab from Saudi or Iraq would relate to this land. You dismiss this point by saying, >>> As I pointed before we are talking about “ Palestinians” here and not about comparisons between Palestinian and Israeli. This is not about PC. Reread my previous post about it. I’ll be happy to discuss the comparison, but it is a separate issue. Don’t mix. BTW there is BIGGER difference between Texan and New Yorker’s “ dialect” then between “ Palestinian and Syrian” There is NO ( I mean NO) difference between Jordanian and “Palestinian dialect in ANY way especially dialect. For some reason I thought you are an American Jew with NO good knowledge of Hebrew or Arabic, but I might be mistaken”, please advice...<<< "If you claim Palestinians feel “the same way” about their villages towns and clans, you are correct. This is their home after all, so this is natural... Texans feel different about Texas, Californians ridicule New Yorkers and vise versa, but it still doesn’t make them a separate nation. " But you are missing the importance of the land to our conflict and to the sense of identification of both sides in the conflict with respect to this land. >>> No, I acknowledged they care about their land. Read my previous post. Palestinians historically care about their CLANS and expanded families. The idea of nationalism as we understand is foreign to them. In Islam there is only one nation, Islamic Umma