http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QJAjKFSDkk listen!

The author of this talk back wants the Arabs to stop blowing people up. I agree. But that attitute assumes the Israelis are innocent of all violence. That is not true. Thousands of houses have been blown up in the West Bank. Palestinian olive growers have had their crops stolen and vandalized by the settlers who claim to be righteous observant Jews. Other uglly things have happened under the occupation. We need to look at this and try to end it as much as we need to condemm the violence ON BOTH SIDES of the conflict.

Anyone you has read all the issues and references brought forward by the talkback writers to Hanani's last article (GOOD READS WORTH GOING BACK FOR) knows what is going on here. At first Ray even attacked writers by playing with their name and playing the "you are a hater" card so the issues did not have to be addressed. Some people think they are moderates and that that makes them better than thou. They sit so high up on a fence, that when they finally get knocked off, they have a very difficult time climbing back up. But, they do because it is safer than dealing with real issues and considering additional, widely admitted facts. Ray spent this whole column waxing philosophical trying to climb back up on that fence. To believe his logic is to believe that conservative or liberal are always wrong. Well, Chamberlin of Britain was a moderate, and he was definitely wrong. He apologized and backed Churchill when reality couldn't further hide. Sometimes moderates are so worried about being accepted by all and about looking successful that they fail to fight for a better cause or outcome. Moral equivalencey suites them fine regardless of the expense. To illustrate how ineffective a moderate can be, why not take a look at someone who some people think is a moderate, but doesn't fit the moderate mold at all AND IS VERY EFFECTIVE. I'm referring to Senetor Joeseph Liberman of Connecticut who is getting so much support from moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats that he is most likely to win reelection as an independent without the support of his party, the Democrats who dumped him. Joe is for school choice (conservative issue), supports the war in Iraq (conservative), but supports the liberal Democrats on 90% of the social issues. How can you be genuine and stand for anything if you don't make decissions on an issue by issue basis? Joe does this. Meanwhile, some like to cloak themselves in the safe, prideful description of a moderate -- as if the world responds to philosophy more than eventual action from trustworthy commitment. Liberal, moderate, conservative: history seems to indicate that the correct approach at the correct time has moved the future.

good on ya mate

Guess that's happened on BOTH side of this conflict ... as well as in the USA, Canada and Iran and so many other countries. How DO "good people" elect so many "bad governments?" Perhaps our electoral systems aren't very democratic or perhaps the voters are brainwashed by all the propaganda, but it sure has been puzzling me, especially after the "election" of Bush TWICE in the US and now Harper in Canada.

I liked your article Ray, but I think it's very important in this conflict to get a little more precise and give some "groundrules" for being an Israeli moderate or a Palestinian moderate. Otherwise, my relatives who support expanding the settlements can refer to themselves as "moderates," and Palestinians who support terror "occasionally" can keep calling themselves moderates. Among those groundrules we should include: 1. supporting a two-state solution roughly based on 1967 lines.....2. For Palestinians, rejecting ALL terror and violence without exception 3. For Israelis, supporting a real palestinian state that is contiguous, truly independent, and includes nearly the entire west bank 4. For Palestinians, recognizing Israel's right to exist unequivocally, just as most israelis support Palestine's right to exist... I'm sure we can add to this list.

Try, "Stupid is as stupid does." Or, "In a democracy the people get the government they deserve." Take some personal responsibility. These are democracies, they are inherently messy, BUT you can't fool all of the people, all of the time. Voters are NOT stupid. They vote their own economic interests. Americans were not stupid in electing Bush. You only think that if you ONLY listen to the BIASED, LIBERAL, main stream media. Things have not worked out as well as they could have though. Also, when it comes to communication, Bush is no Harry Truman or Ronald Regan.

Most Palestinians are not moderates and are not ready to accept Israel as a permanent Jewish neighbor. The fact is they elected Hammas, which does not recognize Israel’s right to exist with a Jewish majority. Most Israelis voted for a two state solution in the last election, but there is a large minority in Israel that denies Palestinian rights and they take advantage of extreme emotions. Moderates on both sides must continue transmitting their message during violent times or lulls. We need extreme passion for our beliefs. We cannot deviate from message when atrocities occur as Ray often does e.g. showing admiration for Hizbollah in the last column and Hammas before that. Ray, you are only a traitor to your people if you don’t speak your mind and support wrong decisions for patriotism’s sake. With that said, moderates will not solve the conflict alone. For peace to happen, wrong leaders must become enlightened and must be willing to risk their lives. Sharon made the transition and became sick. Rabin was murdered. Sadat and was murdered. King Abdullah changed knowing he had little life left and little to risk. Arafat signed agreements on paper but did not make peace in his heart. Today, Israel has a weak leader that must be replaced and moderate Palestinians have even more work than Israelis to enlighten their societies despite the continued violent reactions of the conflict. We need extreme moderates leaders quite desperately!

You so far gone from your own people you not know what we think. No moderates in Gaza. We all want Jews gone, Israel gone, U.S. gone. Palestine from Jordan to Mediterranean. We not radical, just Palestinian. What are you, Ray?

Economic interests? Is THAT all that matters? Aren't there other issues to consider when voting for a party or a representative? There are for me at least. Mainstream media is liberal in the USA? Oh, guess you're talking about Canada.. WHEW! But I hate to break it to you, our media isn't all that liberal here either. Israel wasn't set up as a democracy to provide equal rights for all its inhabitants. In israel, if you're Jewish you have rights. If you're Palestinian you don't have the same rights. Israel wasn't a "good" government for the Palestinians right from its inception.

Bitterlemons.org is a website that presents Israeli and Palestinian viewpoints on prominent issues of concern. It focuses on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and peace process. It is produced, edited and partially written by Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian, and Yossi Alpher, an Israeli. Its goal is to contribute to mutual understanding through the open exchange of ideas. Bitterlemons.org aspires to impact the way Palestinians, Israelis and others worldwide think about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. A quote from one of the Palestinian articles: A different approach might be to make it sufficient to work with decision-makers, academics and community leaders on both sides to bring them to an understanding of each other's narratives. If achieved, this will no doubt help politicians to reach agreements on the issues at stake. It will help academics to develop new educational curricula that will include the other's narratives, and teachers to achieve an inclusive pedagogy. And it will help community leaders, including the sectorial leaders, to become actors for reconciliation rather than incitement and enmity. This is all built on understanding the narratives of the other--without necessarily having to agree with them. "As Israeli negotiator Elyakim Rubinstein said at Camp David in 2000, "the peace process shouldn't be the arena in which truth is pronounced." However, acknowledgement of the importance of one's own historical narrative to the legitimacy of the other side may be necessary before we can finally settle on the tangible issues."

It's too bad the Palestinians don't have a good one. Somone who would encourage them to simply move on and build their country into something they can be proud of.

a poem as lovely as the BEE, It flies from flower to flower and hymns a song so FREE. Scratch a moderate and you will find an extremist. They all hate bugs, they hate SPIDERS. Same G-D Ray. The people need to be armed and locked and ready. Give the people what they want.

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/genocide/index.htm

on my American Indian land? Are you going to be so understanding if the Choktaw hoards come to Cleveland and start blowing up your family members with bomb belts? If you aren't against terrorism you are a terrorist supporter.You fit the bill. Appeasing and enabling muslims to kill infidels over the same land you stole from the Jews 600 years ago. I can only imagine the outrage in Cleveland, if I as an American Indian ,committed the same atrocities against your family members, that you want everyone to accept over settlements built in Jerusalem. Muslims tow the Hypocrite line to the fullest. Do as I say--not as I do!

He would love for all of us to believe that. Be really, a moderate is defined by his views, and Rays views are anything but moderate. 1) Israel staged the kidnapping and planned out the whole war in lebanon . 2) Hezbollah are a "valiant militia". 3) Israels prisons are like russian "gulags". 4) Israel is solely responsible for the palestinian refugees. Are these the views of a moderate?? You decide.

"Seeds of Peace is the only place where Israelis and Palestinians are treating each other as human beings." Quote by a Palestinian participant in the programme. Perhaps the graduates can become models for others. www.seedsofpeace.org But why is it so hard for us to treat each other as "human beings" first? When I need to try to "un-demonize" someone (like some horrific criminal), I try to superimpose the face of a child over their face and it helps me connect with this person at a more human level. it helps me get deeper behind the hate/anger to locate the fear beneath it all. Some say that fear, not hate, is the opposite of love. Israelis are justifiably fearful being surrounded by so many peoples who say they don't exist or shouldn't exist or who see them as enemies. Palestinians are justifiably fearful being surrounded by so many people who say they don't exist or shouldn't exist or who see them as enemies. The Palestinians and Israelis have a lot in common with their fears. The Israelis might say, BUT Palestine has lots of Arabs around to help them, but do they really? Who has helped them? Now Israel has a superpower to help them, but yes, they are far away. So much fear, so much pain ..... Like the Seeds of Peace site says, "Treaties are negotiated by governments. Peace is made by PEOPLE"

sience say about the beekingdom .and sience say about the spider home not kingdom //sure the quran is before the science facts ,but sure the quran is the base of all facts but the importants first to believe in quran to explain the facts or not ..sience may changed or developed but quran will not ..just to believe or not it is the problem of the special person ..i know moses said to his people if you believe or not it is the problem of yourselfe not god he will do nothing with your believe butyours believe will help you and also god will

I am also a moderate -which means I get flak from both ends. While I frequently disagree with Ray I do appreciate that he's trying to do something constructive - not just rant because anger causes such a nice adrenaline high. Now the practical question - how to energize and organize moderates? Remember the old quote - "For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing." Now how do moderates start doing the something that will overcome the extremists?

Langauge is very important in determining how we react to things. I am continually confused by the use of the phrase "fight for peace." Isn't fighting what we're trying to eliminate? Maybe we should use the term "work for peace" instead. It gives the right picture of hard, unrelenting effort which might not be immediately rewarded with success or glory, but eventually gets the job done. Besides, moderates don't like aggression - that's why we're moderates. "Work for peace" has friendlier and positive associations.

1571- 1878 AD OTTOMAN PERIOD: In 1570 troops attack Cyprus, capture Nicosia, slaughter the population (20,000) and lay siege to Famagusta for a year. After a brave defense by Venetian commander Marc Antonio Bragadin, Famagusta capitulates to the Ottoman commander Lala Mustafa, who first gives free passage to the besieged but when he sees how few they are, orders the flaying, drawing and quartering of Bragadin and puts the others to death. On annexation to the Ottoman Empire, the Latin hierarchy are expelled or converted to Islam and the Greek Orthodox faith restored; in time, the Archibishop as leader of the Greek Orthodox, becomes their representative to the Porte. When the Greek War of Independence breaks out in 1821, the Archibishop of Cyprus, Kyprianos, three bishops and hundreds of civic leaders are executed. 1878-1960 BRITISH PERIOD: Under the 1878 Cyprus Convention, Britain assumes administration of the island, which remains formally part of the Ottoman Empire until 1914 when Britain annexes Cyprus, after the Ottoman Empire enters the First World War on the side of Germany. In 1923 under the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey renounces any claim to Cyprus. In 1925 Cyprus is declared a Crown colony. In 1940 Cypriot volunteers serve in various branches of the British Armed Forces throughout the Second World War. Hopes for self-determination now being granted to other countries in the post-war period are shattered by the British who consider the island vitally strategic. An Armed Liberation Struggle, after all means of peaceful settling of the problem are exchausted, breaks out in 1955 which last until 1959. 1960 REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS: According to the Zurich-London Treaty, Cyprus becomes an independent republic on 16th August 1960. It is a member of the United Nations, the Council of Europe and the Commonwealth as well as the Non-Aligned Movement. According to the above Treaty, Britain retains in the island two Sovereign Bases, (158.5 sq km) at Dhekelia and Akrotiri-Episkopi. The 1960 Constitution of the Cyprus Republic proves unworkable in many of its provisions, and this made impossible its smooth implementation. When in 1963, the President of the Republic, Archbishop Makarios, proposed some amendments to facilitate the functioning of the state, the Turkish community responded with rebellion (Dec. 1963), the Turkish ministers withdrew from the Cabinet and the Turkish civil servants ceased attending their offices while Turkey threatened to invade Cyprus. Ever since then, the aim of the Turkish Cypriot leadership, acting on instructions from the Turkish Government, has been the partitioning of Cyprus and annexation by Turkey. In July 1974, a coup is staged in Cyprus by the Military junta, then in power in Athens, for the overthrow of President Makarios. On 20 July 1974, Turkey launched an invasion with 40,000 troops against defenseless Cyprus. Since 1974, 37% of the island is under Turkish military occupation and 200,000 Greek Cypriots, 40% of the total Greek Cypriot population, were forced to leave their homes in the occupied area and were turned into refugees. The invasion of Turkey and the occupation of 37% of the island's territory as well as the continuing violation of the fundamental human rights of the people of Cyprus have been condemned by international bodies, such as the UN General Assembly, the Non-aligned Movement, the Commonwealth and the Council of Europe.

Sadly to say, I had (about 2 months ago) an afternoon long email dialogue with Ray Hanania. While he talks and/or writes a good game, and professes to be a MODERATE, when confronted with the HARD truch and REAL facts (in place of the stanged, contrived and false evidence so prevalent in the biased media) he eventually descended into the typical name calling and denial behaviors of those who would deceive the less informed public. He is, as the saying goes, a wolf in sheeps clothing. If you doubt my claim, do as I did, and try a dialogue with him and present the REAL facts and the HARD evidence. See how long it takes.

I've been trying to spread the word about this guy because the same exact thing happened top me. A moderate is defined by his views and once you get to actually hear Hananias real views it is quite a shock and extremely frustrating because he never gets into specifics, always generalizing to prove his point. He usually has none other than to try and make Israelis feel more apologetic than they already do.

to prove he is a true moderate? Remind me guys in the army who try to show their success with girls... They were proven false of course... Don Juan doesn't need to prove he is Don Juan... The same applies to Hanania. Hanania is extreme Falashtinian nationalist who tries to prove otherwise. If he had a talent he would be "dangerous". He is a joke though, he is a failure as a " comedian" s well as " writer".

The greatest Hebrew poetry is the psalms, which have every emotion, including rage and hate.

"Economic inerests? Is THAT all that matter?" You really have problems with reality. Many studies indicate that people vote their encomomic interests. In dictatorships they just try to curry favor with the authority who will benefit their economic interests. Hey, I don't tell people what to do. That's what they tend to do. Go on out there and change their minds if you don't like it. See how far you get. NOW, it just so happens that when people's economic interests are met in a democracy or even a dictatorship, the country is much more peaceful. IT IS THE ECONOMY THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO FEED AND CLOTHS THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHILDREN, PUT A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS, LIVE IN RELATIVE SAFETY, AND BE SO BUSY WORKING OR OTHERWIZE HAVING FUN THAT THEY HAVEN'T THE MOTIVATION FOR TERRORISM AND UNREST. AND, IN A DEMOCRACY, THEY ARE PRETTY MUCH FREE TO DO THEIR OWN THING AND FIND A PLACE TO DO IT. What are you? Some type of school girls or school boy that you don't understand the basics of society and human behavior. Hamas and Hizbo does everything to disturb this so people can achieve it on their own and must come to them and then they control. Israel was set up as a Jewish state with secular rights for all of its citizens. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT/ Go live in one off the many Islamo states. They are set up to give the Muslims the type of society they want. DON'T pull that "pseudo democracy" CRAP on me or us. The reason there are different nations is so people can live the particular way they want in those nations. The reason the US has 50 states with states rights is so they can live differently given the wish of their electorates provide they do not violate the Federal constitutional pact they entered in to. Arja, or whoever you are You are so full of it. You think everyone is as dumb and ignorant as you pertend to be. We'll, they are not. Those that fall for your and Ray's balongna, deserve to be where they are. The rest wize up in time. Oh, and Ray's claim that his editor told him that only the negative people write to him. Gee wiz, I wonder why there are to many other writers and talk show hosts who get tons of acolades along with the rest. Do you really think we believe your editors patronizing remarks. Probably couldn't find another Arab to write a column like this out side of the Arab press for fear they would be shot. Sure keeps those click throughs going for YNet though.

I think you are really talking about middle of the roaders. True moderates actually take positions on issues. Then they look like pragmatist or principaled people depending. Other moderates our to bust trying to be liked and trying to appease to have any energy left to energize. They also wallo in moral relativism. You can't be a oderate for long. You have to stand for something otherwize you stand for nothing. Someone better than I said that.

I had the same experience with Ray. He even went so far as to refer to me as StewRAT and "hater" in his talk backs. Kind of sick. THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT TALKBACKS, BOTH SPEAKING UP, THE GREAT SUPPORTED HISTORY LESSONS, AND THE WELL REFERENCE DWRITING. More than I can do. PS I need a vaction.

I actually thought Ray's piece was rather innocuous, almost a "motherhood" kind of column on peace. But I did agree with the person who suggested using 'working for" rather than "fighting for" peace. Stewart, I actually vote according to values that are important to me - green socialist kind of thing.: I examine the party's policies in various areas, e.g. environment, foreign policy, education, employment and budget. But maybe, that's a Canadian thing to do. We do have a bit more of a real choice because in addition to the two big business political parties, we have parties who put people ahead of their pocketbooks. Yet, there is talk about making our government more democratic by finding a way to have representational voting which would reflect more what the people want. We live in a very repressive, paranoid time. I've been warned to be careful, as if some jewish hitmen would come after me for speaking out against Israel. But fortunately, I'm a nobody. I've heard some people havent' been so lucky. Yep, there are extremists on both the Muslim and Jewish sides.