While Rays latest opinion piece was interesting and thoughtful , my main objection is comparing Jewish extemists with Palestinian extremists . There is a world of difference . First the Palestinians target civilians , like pizza parlors , bus stops , schools and hospitals just to name a few . Now these are people who at the time of being murdered were hurting nobody , just going about activities of daily living i.e.... going to work , going to visit a friend , shopping and going to class . They were not a threat to Palestinians or anyone else . In contrast it is rare that a Jewish extremist ever does anything even remotely similar . Can anyone name even one Jewish suicide bomber ? Recently, I think sometime in last year , one Jewish settler went on a shootng spree and was killed by Palestinian bystanders . His village refused to except his body for burial . Because what he had done was considered a sin . Please don't bring up the settler who is considered a hero for a simalar shooting about a decade ago . I know about it , most Israelis rejected it , and one time in the last decade just proves my point . It's rare!! The Palestinians for instance in the 34 months before the fence began committed 73 large scale terrorist attacks ( suicide attacks/car bombs ) inside Israel , murdering 293 Israelis , wounding 1,950 . In the 28 months following the the fence being built ( and still under construction ) from August, 2003 - December , 2005 11 large scale attacks suceeded , murdering 54 and wounding 358 . That was a appox. a 80% drop ( the fence/ wall works ) . These murderers are considered heros in Palestinian society . Rewards ( paid in cash ) are given to the families $15,000.00 from Saudia Arabia and until Sadaams ousting $25,000.00 from Iraq; a total of at least $40,000.00 ( with the corruption in the PA it is doubtful wherther all the blood money ever reached the heros family ) , As recently as 2004; 592 bombs , 1231 mortars and 309 Kassam rocket fired in Israel , 2005; 199 bombs .848 mortars and 377 Kassam rockets fired ( 2005 was , Palestinians claim , a so called truce year ) . Israel does unfortunately kill Palestinian civilians when retailated against these daily attacks . Clearly it is unintended , but when your enemy hides among the civilian population , hides weapons in houses, hospitals and mosques , starts riots and then hides behind their rock throwing children , firing their handguns , rifles and throwing moltov cocktails at the soldiers . This forces the IDF to shoot back in self defense . Th leaders of the terrorist ( Hamas, PFLP, Al-Aska etc. ) groups travel with thier wives and children when they know they are on a hit list for planning terrorist attacks . Instead of shipping the woman and children to be safe they actuality put them in harms way for PR tools , to be used to create greater world sympathy . Some writers lament the Palestinians have no rights. Of course , it simply is not true . In Israel they can vote , own land , run for political office, in short they have the same rights as the Jews . Something denied to Jews living in Arab countries .

From Arjas piece, " I've been warned to be careful, as if some jewish hitmen would come after me for speaking out against Israel. " Your as phoney as a $3 bill, and a number of us have been hinting at it. I had someone write me wondering if you were RAY? Yes you better be carefull. You're only 3,549 down on the Mossad's hit list for those who speak out againt Israel. Watch the news every night to catch and count down the number of people wacked for speaking out against Israel. It's on the front page in all the newspapers in case you miss it on TV and loose count. I hear they are especially interested in wacko Canadians because they are the most dangerous. The country is just crawling with agents just waiting to put inocent, out spoken anti-Israeli Canadians in their sights and pull the triger. Yes, it's the Mosads secret plan to rid the world of wacko Canadians. I'd go out for a breath of fresh air now, but I don't want to step on any bodies. They just did a cleanup operation in my neighborhood so I wouldn't have to put up with it. ARJA, WHOEVER YOU REALLY ARE, YOUR'RE AS GENUINE AS GINGERALE IN A BOTTLE OF "MOOSEHEAD BEER". No disrespect to the Moosehead, or Canadians. It's really GOOD beer.

Clearly, the haters here have not cornered the market on hatred. The pro-Hamas newspaper in New Jersey that slams me for my Jew agenda because I write for Yedioth Ahronoth's YnetNews. And all this time I thought they forgot me. Stewrat, Edamn and the rest can find some comfort in the Hamas writings. I wonder if we can put the Israeli fanatics in the same room with the Palestinian fanatics and let them duel it out? Or, maybe they are really both cowards and can only toss mud from behind their own mental berqas? Ray Hanania www.hanania.com

Very well put. I need a vacation. As Larry Elder would say, "pass the Advil, I got a headache." PS I'm not sure Hanani's piece is thoughtful in the way you may be refering to it. Just look at everything people have pointed out about it here and in previous columns. In my opinion, they seem to start out that way. Then they attempt to suck the reader in, lulling them into a false sense of sympathy. Out come the partial truths and covert overgeneralizations. I wonder how many actually read these talkbacks? There are some very knowledgeable and talented people responding.

is Ynet considered a major player in the Israel media? I have found Ynet very informative, but having Ray Hannania as a regular columnist makes it seem kind of like a Mickey Mouse organization, especially when the columnist enters into the Jerry Springer-like talkback frenzy.

your moderate like the one dance on halfe the stair ..the above do not see him ..the down do not hear him poor ray ..but i want to aske did you have a fund for your article ..or like me spend times without any fund and no one hear or see

I would say Ray is loosing it, but this is his usual response, NAME CALLING. "Stew *rat*? How sick can one get. Can't address issues or carry on a civil conversation without NAME CALLING LIKE A 5 YEAR OLD. Everyone is a "hater " if they do not agree with him? THIS IS AN ADULT? A REPRESENTATION OF PALESTINIAN MODERATION? IS IT ANY WONDER WE CAN'T LIVE WITH THESE KIND OF PEOPLE? MOST OF THE RATIONAL PALESTINIANS LEFT THE MIDEAST. Thats how I got such a good aquaintence from Jordan that I have refered to. It speaks volumes to see this man, Hanani, errupt with such vile and imature name twisting and name calling. I guess we all get to see what the other half of the Palestinians are all about even when given an opportunity for civil discussion. Hanani squanders it with slanders and name calling. How can we have any dialouge with people like this? As slyly as he tries to portray himself in the columns, the real Hanania spills out here in his own words, name calling and other imature behavior. Count on Ray, never a mature discussion! Doesn't that sound like, "count on the radical Arabs (Iranian's ect.) to never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?" I would never waste my time writing for Hanania or Arja whoever that really is. It is for other readers. Thanks to the other talkback writers who know so much more. Readers have really gotten an education. That is all we can hope for, but it is pretty good.

Ray was right in the column he wrote on needing to maintain one's sense of humour!

The state of Israel is OCCUPYING the land of another people. What is the moral equivalent for that crime? The government of Israel is using brutal force to maintain ttheir control of the occupied peoples? What is the moral equivalent for that crime?

Arja, you ask what is the equivalent crime to occupation? Well, it's CERTAINLY not equivalent to suicide bombings and civilian-targeted tactics. It's much less severe, since land is less precious than life. You ask what is the equivalent crime to IDF's 'brutal force'? It's once again NOT morally equivalent, considering that, once again, Palestinian suicide bombers and rocket launchers deliberately target civilian areas, while the IDF uses non-lethal weapons as much as possible. If Israel were really using brutal force, explain their success rate at CAPTURING (not killing) a number of attempted terrorists. This capability, which focuses on reducing casualties, is lauded among defense establishments around the world. I am amazed in your continuous calls for morality on these talkbacks that you constantly neglect to censure or even mention suicide bombings or calls for Israel's annihilation. I am disgusted that your version of morality uses occupation to justify all Palestinian-caused deaths. I agree, Palestinian deaths should be avoided and, if caused, then investigated. However, recognize that many of those killed are terrorists plotting against Israel. I am condemning Palestinian TARGETING of civilians, not gunmen shooting at IDF forces. You, however, condemn neither, and seem unable to distinguish between Israeli soldiers and Israeli civilians. If you censure even accidental Palestinian deaths caused by the IDF because of the pain it causes the Palestinian people, how can you not condemn deliberate killing by Palestinian terrorists? There is no moral equivalence in the intention: Israel's intention is to stop terror. Palestinian terrorists' intention is to harm Israelis. Don't believe me? Read Hamas' charter or any of the statements made by Tanzim, Islamic Jihad, etc. (Also, please notice that I distinguished between Palestinians in general and Palestinian terrorists, a reciprocal distinction that, as aforementioned, is jarringly absent from all of your posts).

Nice try, trying to divert readers away from the issue. Still can't handle anything without pointing a finger. The only humor going on here is the humoring of Ray/Arja.

Israeli collective punishments kill and injure innocent Palestinians. What is the moral equivalent? Also, " Israel was the only country in the world, in 1997, which legalized hostage-taking. The liberal head of the Israeli High Court, Aharon Barak, he said it's legal, legitimate, under international law to take what he called bargaining chips in order to get prisoners, Israeli prisoners being held by the Lebanese. The decision was reversed in 2000, but Israel continued to hold Lebanese hostages until 2004. So, at worst, Hamas is being accused of what Israel legalized and routinely does (Norman Finelstein}."

Firstly, hostage-taking was legalized instead of prisoner taking as a semantic method only bc you technically can't militants 'prisoner' since they're not soldiers, and thus taking hostages who were militants is a way to fight asymmetric guerilla tactics. Even if we ignore this, as Arja herself states, the law was revoked in 2000...prisoners returned in 2004. In other words, Israel has demonstrated change and adaptation. Again, recall that the largest land for peace deal was made by right-winger Menachem Begin in 1979. Ariel Sharon, who originally championed the settlements was the one who agreed to pull out. On the Palestinian side, arafat later called the Oslo Accords 'a red herring' and Hamas leaders have repeatedly stated that they would only agree to a deal based on 1967 borders as a first step (in their overt quest to remove Israeli presence from Jordan to the sea). I have repeatedly asked for even one example of such a hawk-to-dove transition on the part of Palestinian leaders and Arja has yet to give me any substantiated examples, preferring, instead, to repeat the word 'occupation' in order to justify any action taken by Palestinians, including suicide bombings.

Like Israel who gives with one hand but takes back more with the other. All I see is more hawk on ALL sides. Of course, I don't like the violent methods of the Palestinians, but I can almost understand it. And of course, I harp on the occupation by Israel because it's a major reason for the misery Palestinians experience in their daily life., and now I'll mention the illegal settlements and the demolition of Palestinain homes, the "regrettable" murder of inncent Palestinians, the immoral collective punishments, the prisoners held without charges and trials in Israeli jails ... the crimes against Israel are long. I don't see any move from hawk to dove there at all.

Yes, I mean the way that, despite the right wing, the Israeli GOVERNMENT is attempting to curtail the expansion of the settlements of which you speak. The way that Manny Mazuz (attorney-general) made it more difficult to get tenders to build new settlements. Unlike the unlawfulness and lack of willingness to deal with military elements, the IDF is dealing with settlers that try to undermine government policy (example: Nadia Matar). Meanwhile, Palestinian terrorists are not only not dealt with, but rather lauded by the Palestinian leadership. You also mention demolition of Palestinian homes. Did you know that Palestinians occasionally receive compensation for this? Also, did you know that many of the homes are demolished because they have access to underground tunnels used for arms smuggling and other illegal operations (openings often hidden under baby cribs, btw)? So, yes, I do call that hawk to dove. And, as usual, any similar demonstration of Palestinian shifts towards peace were not provided. Perhaps because there aren't any...Don't bother mentioning the unity government, as Hamas clearly stated that it still doesn't recognize Israel and tacitly admitted joining the unity government in order to once again get international aid, as thus this does not qualify as an example.

According to the United Nations, $30m-worth of damage has been inflicted on Gaza since this operation began. In July and August, some 251 Palestinians were killed by Israeli military action, half of them civilians. The dead have included women, children and the elderly. Hundreds more have been wounded. The methods Israel used have been grossly disproportionate. Five Israelis have been killed by Kassams in the past six years. How do the kidnapping of Corporal Shalit and the rockets justify such a lethal response in Gaza?

The buzz word " occupation " it has been pointed out , correctly , is used by defenders of the Palestinians for an excuse for all atrocities committed by the Palestinians . All the apologists and the Palestinians themselves equate the building ( or expansion ) of settlements with terrorism . As silly as it sounds Arabs consider building houses on empty land the same as their murdering people at bus stops and cafe's . So it is hard to negotiate with people who beleive in such comparsions . Yet that is the situation Israel finds itself in . We can never hope to change these people or how they think . So the best we can do is respond to the half truths and lies so other people reading these arguments at least see both sides before they make up their minds . Are Palestinian attacks on civilians part of a legitimate struggle ? Therefore are not terrorism ? The answer is NO they are not legitimate , they are murder . As A mnesty International has stated " attacks on civilians are not permitted under any international recognized standard of law , whether they are committed in the context of a struggle against military occupation or any other context . Not only are they considered murder under general principles of law in every national legal system , they are contrary to fundamental principles of humanity.... the manner in which they are being committed in Israel ...they also amount to crimes against humanity " . So we see Palestinian suicide bombings , shootings , car bombs and rocket attacks to name a few are NOT the same as Israel building houses on empty land for security needs . First the violence must stop then Israel i'm sure would sit down and talk , they have already proved a willingness to do so with Jordan and Egypt . When the Palestinians when given the same opportunity in Gaza chose not to ( with 1000 rocket attacks and the kidnaping of IDF soldiers ) .

Here's a quote from someone I consider a moderate Jew, Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun Magazine: "As a rabbi I've been faced with countless young people who tell me that they want no part in Judaism if, as they constantly hear from sections of the organized Jewish community, the requirement of being a loyal Jew is to support the current policies of the State of Israel. I try to explain to them that this equation of Judaism with support for a particular national state, even a state with a majority of Jews, is pure idolatry and a perversion of Jewish values (there's nothing in our Torah that teaches that loyalty to a particular state, and indeed our prophets central message was that both the nation and the religion were being perverted by the national leaders and religious leaders who had allowed their commitments to the ancient Jewish state to over-ride their commitment to justice, peace and generosity to the powerless). For saying these ideas I'm sometimes told that I, too, am an enemy of the Jewish people. So it's not only the oppression of the Palestinians and the destruction of Lebanon for which much of the Jewish community, having been cheerleaders for the war this summer, need to atone, but for the discrediting of Judaism in the eyes of its most ethically sensitive youth."

I nominate Ziad Asali as a moderate Palestinian. He is founder of ATFP or American Task Force on Palestine. In an article in July 2006, he wrote: Groups like Hamas and Hizbollah have used the combination of services and liberationist rhetoric to advance their standing with the disenfranchised and the destitute. If they are to be brought under the control of central governments, disarmed and transformed into peaceful political parties, then those governments need to be immediately, consistently and thoroughly strengthened by the international community for several years to come. Arab states have both a moral obligation and a powerful vested interest in helping constructive actors like Abbas and Siniora acquire the means to provide strong central governance and solid social services. If they are concerned about countering the growing influence of Iran in the region, they need to make sure that their allies and partners are more robust and well funded than those which receive support and funding from Tehran. There has been much talk in recent years about the need to win hearts and minds in the Middle East, but most American public diplomacy efforts in the region have borne little fruit. A major humanitarian relief effort coordinated by the United States at this time, aimed at Lebanon and the Palestinians, would do far more to boost the image of our country among the Arab peoples than all the TV and radio stations that money can buy. If politics is about influencing others with carrots and sticks, the reality is that most Arab people have mostly seen the stick from the United States, Israel and their own rulers. No wonder, then, that they are proving hard to win over. It is high time we moved, and moved quickly, to start showing the Arab people some carrots. www.americantaskforce.org/press_releases/ziadmoderates62306.html

I have to admit I have no idea how big a following Etiam has in Israel, but I don't suppose he's alone. At least, he seems to have support at the Feedback section of the YNETnews article by Weiss : "Eitam is a real patriot" "Eitam for Prime Minister. Immediate Replacement" "Israel is FOR THE JEWS" "Eitam: True Israeli Patriot deserves Medal of Honor" And yes, there were some moderates in there too and they then got attacked for their moderate views. Quote from Haaretz (Israel) September 11, 2006 by Jack Khoury "It was the first time that Eitam, who heads the Religious Zionism faction within the National Union, has publicly supported deportation of Palestinians, a concept espoused by assassinated National Union founder Rehavam Ze'evi as "transfer." "We will have to expel the great majority of the Arabs of Judea and Samaria," Eitam urged, referring to the whole of the West Bank. According to Eitam, experience showed that Israel cannot give up the area of the West Bank. "It is impossible with all of these Arabs, and it is impossible to give up the territory. We've already seen what they're doing there." Turning to the subject of Israeli Arabs, Eitam said, "We will have to take another decision, and that is to sweep the Israeli Arabs from the political system. Here, too, the issues are clear and simple. "We've raised a fifth column, a league of traitors of the first rank. Therefore, we cannot continue to enable so large and so hostile a presense within the political system of Israel." Yossi Beilin, the leader of the left-wing Meretz party, urged Attorney General Menachem Mazuz Monday to bring Eitam to trial on charges of incitement to racism."

I knew there was something familiar about Arja's incessant and unchanging cries of "Occupation!", "Occupation!", "Occupation!" And it is only thanks to such contributors as Stewart, Edan, Mark, NL, that it dawned on me that I had actually read about this phenomenon in Axel Munthe's The Story of San Michelle. Axel Munthe spoke out for the oppressed and the weak, and above all, loved animals and defended their rights a long time before it became fashionable. This fragment describes the horrible practice of netting migratory birds stopping over for a rest on the island of Capri, in order to be shipped to gourmet restaurants in France: "Do you know how they are caught in the nets? Hidden under the thickets, between the poles, are caged decoy birds calling out night and day till they die. Long before science knew anything about the localization of the various nerve-centres in the human brain, the devil had revealed to his disciple man his ghastly discovery that by stinging out the eyes of a bird with a red-hot needle the bird would sing automatically. " It seems to be that Arja has no choice but to sing automatically, hoping to net unsuspecting passers by.

Still can't deal with the issues, but can always find some isolated examples. Same weak logic. Never acknowledges the others valid facts and points. Again, as Golda Meir said, "Gentlemen, examples prove nothing [especially if they are comming from Rabbis or Jews where two people get you three opinions]!" Neville Chamberlin of Britain of Britain is a great guy to quote too. Strange, there are a good number of non Jews becoming Jews or Bnai' Noach. I doubt anyone checked Rabbi Michael Lerners assesment of "countless" if there even is one. FUNNY, What's Arja doing reading Tikkun magazine so closly or even at all. Other s of this persons talkbacks indicate someone very UNREAD in Jewish and Israeli matters let alone the Mideast. And why would he or she.? Who can act so naive, but be able to glean such particular examples without an extensive perusing of these Jewish periodical? I DOUBT ARJA IS REALLY ARJA.

I'm just trying to be on topic and provide examples to help define moderates on both sides of the issue. They're small bits of "evidence" ... not proof. And is name calling and trying to figure out who I am relevant to the discussion in this forum? I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things. I'm just a somebody who found Israeli's attack on Lebanon totally outrageous. It rekindled my interest in Israel. I attended a UN NGO meeting on Palestine/Israel in around 1990 in Montreal. I attended a whole day information session on Palestine in Ontario as well. As far as I'm concerned I'm in good company with those who protest Israel's war on Lebanon and Israel's treatement of Palestinians. So I provide little clips from some of those people, like Rabbi Lerner whom I've heard on the radio and whose website I occasionally visit (the bit, I included here, was part of a bigger message actually emailed to me by a friend). And by the way, the "j" in my name is pronounced like a "y" - like it is in many European languages.

Your moderate Palestinian calls for people to be nicer to Palestinians instead of calling for the annihilation of Israel. How nice and gracious of him, truly. Sadly, unlike the moderate Jew that you mentioned, who specifically and centrally cited disapprobation for Israeli policy, your moderate Palestinian neither mentions nor censures violence resistance tactics. In fact, he explains why Palestinians are hard to win over to the idea of peace. In other words, he too is implicitly justifying the resistance tactics in the territories to explain why Palestinians don't actively seek peaceful ways, rather than calling on them to seek peaceful ways. He addresses only what the international community can do, not what the Palestinians themselves can do. Congratulations, you proved my (and others') points: the call for actively promoting peace by one's own nation is seen by your example of a moderate Jew and NOT by your example of a moderate Palestinian. And I'd like to point out that your 'moderate Jew' was softspoken against Israeli policies in the territories, compared to Jews in the Israeli government such as Yossi Beilin. Nice try, but no cigar.

Notice that once Effie Eitam made the remarks, Yossi Beilin immediately wanted to have him charged for racism and incitement. This is a far harsher response than Palestinian leaders give to actual suicide bombing (aka evil DEEDS, not evil words). Racists on both sides?! For every Eitam, we have a Beilin. On the other hand, it took you 80 talkbacks just to find a Palestinian 'moderate' who, in your quote of him, forgets to condemn terror as a resistance tactic or even expound any positive action towards peace that the Palestinian nation can take and rather, encouraged the western world to be nicer to Palestinians. Not comparable societies or political systems, thanks.

Instead of debating each issue ( i.e. occupation and settlements ) , lets me approach this a different way . In your opinion does Israel have a right to exist ? if so , what does Israel have to do ( in your vision ) to live in peace with all its neighbors ? If you could give a complete solution , not just a first step . This way i can see along with others what you ( and the people you say are " good company " ) want from Israel . Also if possible explain what Israel gets in return for meeting these goals ( demands ) . At least we will have a starting point to start the debate . Thank you , in advance for your take on the situation .

The Palestinians have always seemed to be a pawn of other Islamic and Arab interests. Some leading Arab nations, Jordan and Egypt, are steping up with a new approach. See: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3302130,00.html This approach recognizes the current irreconcilible diferences. It could also pits these two rational Arab nations against the Islamo Facist regime of Iran and its poorly controlled pupet, Hizbola. There approach is very different from any so far, but does it stand a chance against the meddling of the Iranian regime? Any comments from our experts in the region?

Hello Mark, hello Stewart. Good to see you. It's funny you should ask that, Mark, because I asked Arja the same thing on Ray's previous sheet, I think the one on Islamofascism. And she managed to filter a sort of awkard yes through her teeth, but she couldn't make up her mind where exactly the State of Israel might be allowed to exist, not even on a grain of sand in ME. So I suppose she would like to see us on another planet, or perhaps in the next world, or some past world, or on paper only, or perhaps as a memory, as would so many people in those parts of Europe where the J in her name is pronounced as Y, all of those countries known for their love of Jews, and sometimes also for one another. I know this is very discouraging, guys, but keep going. We may not only convince others that Israel has every right to be here (as per the UN vote in 1948), but also those other people might also understand that a genuine, argument based dialogue is practically impossible to establish between Israel and her opponents - it's only occupation, Uri Avnery said, Chomsky said, now it's some tikkun rabbi, Palestinian rights, open air prisons... I mean Israel (and at least some talkbackers here) asks for concrete facts - Israel yes or no? borders? where borders can no longer be implemented - compensation? only to be confronted with "but the poor Palestinians, you push them, you shove them, you strangle them, the lands, the children, the civilians, occupation". They cannot come up with a straight no, we do not think Israel should exist, so they sob and whine and talk nonsense.

I read the Psalms when i try, not always with succes, to understand the Israeli behaviour, yet i prefer the Song of Salomon/the Song of Songs.

No disrespect, but what do the Psalms have to do with Israel's behavior? Aren't they related to a love and even something to do with sex? Is our writer to 89 for real, or another, doging twister somehow more closely related to Ray than his own parents or sibling. Hey, that's pretty close! Any closer and you could win the Nobel prize for cloning. ANY, ANYONE CHECK OUT THE YNET ARTICLE IN 87? Think Jordan and Egypt may be the solution? Nice to see rational Mideast countries fill a power vaccum before Iran bullies it way in. Could you imagine what the world would be like if the Mideast could solve its own problem? They wouldn't have much to say.