how clever of you!! is there a law that forbids qouting any text.. if I have what I need already written why should I waste my time retyping it?? your problem is this.. when you find nothing to say you look for other unimportant matters to talk about.. you have a problem with Alex because he has spelling mistakes.. and you have a problem with me 'coz I qouted text!! I have suggested and I suggest again that you deal with your hatred first and then discuss the Arab and Islamic civilisation.. as for answering your post.. you haven't come up with anything of much significance to be answered.. you have pasted what I said and called them "sleight- of -hand , dubious conjecture".. how could any sane human being answer that?? you don't believe a word I said and I don't believe a word you say.. what can we do about that?? any "clever" suggestions??

Lynne says: "is there a law that forbids qouting any text.. if I have what I need already written why should I waste my time retyping it??" Actually, Lynne, when you use someone else's work and present it as your own (i.e., without attribution) it is called "plagiarism." I grant that standards vary for what counts as plagiarism, but copying pages of text without attribution qualifies everywhere. Is there a law against this? Often, yes. For example, there is copyright law, if the site material is under copyright. So, let's see what the first linked source in my 87 says: "11. All content is copyright of thetruereligion.org. Additional copyright holders may also be indicated in specific content. thetruereligion.org grants permission for content to be printed and distributed for educational purposes, provided that distribution is free of cost, that content is unchanged, and that attribution to thetruereligion.org and the author of the content is given." So, Lynne, not only have you behaved unethically by plagiarizing, but you have behaved illegally as well. A plagiarist is not to be trusted because, by definition, he has shown himself to be unethical regarding the materials he uses. Lynne: "your problem is this.. when you find nothing to say you look for other unimportant matters to talk about.. you have a problem with Alex because he has spelling mistakes.. and you have a problem with me 'coz I qouted text!!" This is a straw man argument and a dishonest one at that. For example, I criticized Alex's claim that Christian Lebanese necessarily refer to themselves as "Phoenicians," when in fact this is more of a minority subcultural thing. To put the point more directly, I said that Alex is flat out wrong. My comment that he wasn't much of a reader was en passant and was based on the hypothesis that someone who had read the word "Phoenician" repeatedly would remember the very odd "oe," especially because the letters are traditionally slightly overlapped in a printed book, and this looks strange. If anything, the "e" would tend to be dropped. Your focus on this side issue allows you to avoid addressing the substance of that Talkback, and it is dishonest of you to pretend that this side issue was the only thing I talked about.

You: "you have a problem with me 'coz I qouted text!! . . . as for answering your post.. you haven't come up with anything of much significance to be answered.. you have pasted what I said and called them "sleight- of -hand , dubious conjecture".. how could any sane human being answer that?? " Here, you dishonestly suggest that my only problem is with your innocent "quotations" and that I throw around language like "dubious conjecture." Regarding the "quotation" issue, your plagiarism is actually quite important, as it helps us assess the credibility of your "information" as well as suggesting where it might come from. That is why I ultimately concluded that you were completely untrustworthy. Regarding "dubious conjecture" and the like, I showed directly [with brackets] how most of my terms applied when I debunked one of your mathematics claims (see Talkback 76). For example, I led off with "bull," which is reserved for statements that are flat out false, as is your claim that Arab mathematicians discovered the concept of "zero." I don't know how I can be any more precise. Amusingly, you also recommend therapy for me, with your blah-blah about my need to "deal with [my] hatred first." In fact, this is a refrain of yours. I recommend therapy for you instead, where you can work through your "honesty issues." In (90) you finally admit to being Arab and/or Muslim (#90, lines 11-13, the use of "we"). This is a good step forward. Not only should you avoid presenting other people's work as your own, you should present yourself as who you are, an Arab and/or Muslim. Finally, I have to take issue with your laughable "explanation" to Dr. NO of Arab/Muslim backwardness in (90): "I agree ... that Arabs and Muslims now have deteriorated.. ... this is due to the wars we have been through…. also believe in the theory which says that every civilisation reaches a peak and then starts to fall again.. and I believe what Arabs and Muslims are now in is the fall but I also believe that they are starting to rise.. very slowly, very quietly but there is a rise.. a big part of the blame is on the US and Zionists.. Amazing stuff! Tell me, Lynne, might Jews have been through even rougher times in the first half of the 20th century than Arabs? I forget. Do you remember any Jewish Nobel Prize winners in the post-WW2 period, AFTER SIX MILLION JEWS WERE MURDERED? Plenty, right? Not many for Arabs/Muslims, though, eh? Even funnier is your Arab-Muslim tendency to make up history so as to blame "the US and Zionists." I pointed out in (88): "Evidently, even the PR types haven't figured out how to manufacture Arab (or Muslim) discoveries for the past 500 or so years. When it is realized, though, that such discoveries typically come from peoples whom the Muslims have conquered, the puzzle is solved. When Muslims did not conquer, they could not "discover." " Tell me, Lynne, how can "the US and Zionists" be the cause of Arab/Muslim decline when the decline first occurred centuries before the US existed, and when those you call Zionists (Joooos) had no Israel? Is this some new theory of causation? Isn't it more likely that Arabs/Muslim decline occurred when they could no longer seize other people's ideas by force, and, having few of their own, they produced little? And, if that is true, isn't it even more likely that your assertions of Arab/Muslim historical genius are a bunch of hooey? When Rome seized control over Greece, did the Greeks stop innovating? Hardly. But the Romans improved themselves as well. The Arabs utterly failed. I seriously doubt that Arab/Muslim deterioration has now been reversed, with "very slow, very quiet" improvement. What I see is OBL and Ahmadinijad and Nasrallah -- pure civilizational decay.

It's odd, but I just realized that in IE (at least on my machine), #76 now has chopped off characters at the right. This may not be a problem for you. If not, please ignore. If so, the problem disappears with Firefox, and you can also copy the text and paste into Word or Notepad (wrap text). I'm not reposting because I don't understand why the problem occured.

I understand that the fact that I have copied material without using qoutations really upsets you.. although I haven't intended this.. according to copyright laws one has the right to copy information as long as it is for personal use.. I haven't made a website and used this information on it.. I'm not using this information for gaining any profits.. usually I do paste material such as statistics and specific information on a subject.. It's not like posting in here is a job I'm doing which should be rated .. I am here to post what I believe in and I don't think it should matter to you where I got this material as long as it represents my beliefs... you are more than welcome to argue with me about it.. I am not here to educate you or lecture you.. regardding my being an Arab and a Muslim I don't remember ever denying this fact which I am certainly very proud of..

I haven't put all the blame on the US and Israel.. the Arab and Islamic world had been facing wars for decades.. the Crusades, the Mongols( who were responsible for the complete destruction of Baghdad, the Baghdad Library was one of the most important sources of education in the world at that time) .. in WW1 Arabs were under the rule of the Ottoman empire which was crumpling at that time and they were regarded as second class citizens.. in WW2 Arabs were again under occupation.. Arab countries were divided among Europe.. and there was Israel and the US.. for decades Arabs and Muslims have been doing nothing other than resisting occupations.. what was the result? now any Arab or Muslim who has the brains to come up with an achievement is either rich enough to migrate to the West or if he wasn't that fortunate he would bury whatever talents he has and try to get a job whatever it was just to feed his family.. as for your talkback #76 ..part of is actually missing (so the problem is not with your machine).. and this is why I haven't answered what you said about the zero .. I'll paste it on word and read it as you suggeted.. and I'll soon answer you on that..

Lynne, I assume you're the "lynne" who has written repeated anti-Israel harangues in the past here? Regardless, your current blatherings are very tiresome. We all know that Black Africans (pre-Arab-conquest) were responsible for all these things, not Arabs. Just kidding. I mean, of course, that women of all races and religions were responsible. Darn, still kidding. You are ignorant enough not even to distinguish between Arab and Muslim. This is unfortunate, because the Ottomans actually did some interesting things well after the Arabs returned to their habitual coma. You say, for example: "Had it not been for Arab mathematicians, we wouldn't have the zero (sifr), the Arabic numerals we use daily, the decimal system essential to science, algebra or the highly refined trigonometry that followed, or the reformation of the calendar leaving a margin of error of one day in five thousand years. The Arabs brought algebra from ancient Babylon, Egypt and India to Europe via Italy. They took over and improved the Hindu number symbols and the idea of positional notation. These numerals (the Hindu-Arabic system of numeration) and the algorithms for operating with them were transmitted to Europe around 1200 and are in use throughout the world today. " This is a combination of bull, sleight of hand, dubious conjecture, and, rarely, a kernel of truth. For example, the Arabs did NOT invent the concept of zero [example of bull], which was invented independently several times. The so-called "Arab" way of writing place-holding numbers was simply a theft from others. The second quoted paragraph hints at what really happened: the Arabs conquered more civilized people just as Germanic tribes conquered Rome. Because all groups of people have some smart members, some Arabs would inevitably do something worthwhile (although your allusion to the work that was done in algebra by an Arab is presumably to Khowarizmi, who was a PERSIAN [example of sleight-of-hand]). The idea that without Arab conquest these ideas would have been lost is pure conjecture [example of dubious conjecture]. The fact remains that, pound for pound, the Arabs specifically and the Muslims overall have underperformed, the Arabs doubly so. This is especially obvious in the last 500 years, and that is quite a long time. Today's Arab intellectual class is in crisis, and I expect a few others here might also have read books written by Arabs making this point. Arab intellectual life flourished for a short time and was flattened by the same kind of beturbaned lunatic that nowadays cuts off reporters' heads. This is TRUE Islam, and the perpetrators are glorious Arabs. --- Some cites for you:

SK, tx for your support, sharp analysis and intellectual accuracy. Unfortunately, I have not been to Istanbul and have no first hand impression of the two mosques, nor have any intention to travel to Turkey at this time. Lynne – in previous debates with you I heard the strangest stories about Jews and Christians – claims that there are no Ashkenzi Jews, rather Khazar converts – another Zionist plot to take over Palestine from its "rightful owners?" But is it not Islam that spreads by way of "conquer and convert?" http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars Yet an African-American who embraced Islam just the other day has every right to claim Palestine for his own, while you deny the rights of people who embraced Judaism 700-800 years ago? And the Jews offered asylum in Poland, by King Kazimir the Great, after being chased out of England, Germany, etc, in the aftermath of the Black Death of the 1347? Or the Sephardi Jews invited to settle in the Ottoman Empire after being persecuted and driven out of Spain in 1492? How legitimate are they? You said previously: "Jesus never claimed to be the son of God .. this was later on made up by Christians, because Jesus being the son of God would make them God's grandsons ie. carrying His genes... and this is not accepted by neither Islam or Judaism". Come again? I have never heard Christians claiming to be God's descendants, (unlike Hassan Nasrallah who claims to be Muhammad grandson). And then again, when and why should Christians invent such things? On the other hand, Jews reject Jesus as being one more false prophet. Or "Jesus was not baptized"??? HUH??? http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_baptized.htm Now I have neither the intention nor the energy to debunk each and every one of Lynne's claims, but rather offer a random selection of websites that seem to offer a different perspective on the claim that Arabs or Muslims contributed everything, but absolutely everything of some value in our civilization. Arabs or Muslims. Lynne, you can go on repeating – the lyre, the flute, the harp, etc – were invented by… Provide some kind of reference, if you don't mind. Unless you are well-equipped with the Arab/Muslim version of Mao's Little Red Book which overrules every other source of information… hmmm??? The oud: http://www.oud.gr/about_oud.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oud the flute: (this a good one): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flute And I could go on and on and on, except everybody can run their own searches and find their own answers. When there is no conclusive evidence, Lynne, we might at least agree that the origins are controversial. No, I would not say that ancient Egyptians, Mesopotamians or Assyrians were European or American, but they were certainly not Muslim, and doubtfully Arab, i.e. Arabs as known today. "I understand that you don't like seeing civilization associated with Arabs or Muslims but what I have mentioned are facts which the West have been trying to bury for years." You couldn't be more wrong. But be honest, claim that which is yours, purely Arab or Muslim, just as sk said. Having conquered and converted someone does not entitle you to claim their achievements for your own. "as for the oil money you're talking about this is mostly used up by American and European companies that invest in the ME " – well, if they invest in the ME, how do they use the money up? "plus the fact that the leaders of the Gulf region are clueless" – yes, they invest in the Hamas, Hezbollah and suicide bombers, arm to the teeth, squander, steal – Iran, Iraq, the Saudis, Arafat… However, I have found some great contribution by Ibn-Battuta, whom you never mentioned – he found Jews in Hebron and Arabs had built a mosque over the tomb of Avraham, Isaac and Jacob: http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Battuta's_Trip_Two.html And check Avicenna' credentials one more time! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

If I start with what you called "theft from others".. I understand in here that you do not believe in the fact that civilizations should communicate and exchange culture and knowledge.. this exchange does not necessarily happen due to conquer.. it could happen via trade.. what I say is that Arabs have managed to improve what the Hindus came up with.. and because they have reached Europe they were able to transmit this knowedge to Europe.. ie. in their invasion of Europe they brought with them culture and civilisation not distruction and bloodshed like what Europe brought with it.. when Arabs and Muslims invaded any part of the world they made it more beautiful.. even when leaving they do not destroy what they have built.. for examle.. Spain (Andalusia).. upto now it stands as a symbol of Arab and Islamic architecture .. until this day hundreds of tourists go to Spain just to witness the glory of Islamic architecture.. As for Al-Khawarizmi he is a Persian yes but a Muslim Persian.. why do you wish to hide this?? as for Arabs today I have answered on that in my previous talkback..

Hi Dr. Your talkback was truncated on the right hand side just as mine was. This is very odd. I'll send a note to customer service. Maybe someone there can figure out what is going on. Later, sk

the facts about origins of Jews I have given you last time were not my words (I have made sure to make this clear) as I have referred them to a Jewish scholar "Benjamin Freedman".. if you remember... as for the rightful owners of Palestine .. well.. Israelis lived in Egypt and were suffering from opression and mistreatment when Moses descended in Sinai and saved them after they adopted Judaism .. Canaanites (who have immigrated from Arabia) at that time were living in Palestine.. Israelites conquered Canaan and King Solomon constructed the temple in Jerusalem which was destructed by Babylonians.. so this means that Israelis even then were conquerors.. "Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination." Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest." What does Baptism do? Baptism: remits all sins (both original sin and personal sin) and their temporal punishments. If one were to die immediately after Baptism, he would go straight to Heaven (assuming one presents no obstacles). imprints an indelible mark on the soul of the baptized which marks him as God's, initiates him into the life of the Church, and allows him to receive the other Sacraments. It is through Baptism that we are born again -- regenerated -- of water and Spirit and receive new life. infuses sanctifying grace, supernatural gifts, and virtues (according to the disposition of the soul receiving the Sacrament and providing he puts up no obstacles), making us true adopted children of God. http://www.fisheaters.com/baptism2.html regarding my comment on Jesus not being baptized my point was that Jesus had come with the message of Christianity so he was not a Jew who should be baptized to become a Christian.. oh.. and when had Hassan Nasrallah claimed to be Mohammad's (PBUH) grandson?? anyway being Mohammad's (PBUH) descendant is natural because he was married and had children.. and Muslims never claim that Mohammad(PBUH) was God's son!! you're mixing things up in here.. "However, I have found some great contribution by Ibn-Battuta, whom you never mentioned – he found Jews in Hebron and Arabs had built a mosque over the tomb of Avraham, Isaac and Jacob: " wow.. how have you managed to change even this.. it says: "Hebron is a Holy site for Muslims, Christians and Jews..." while you have only mentioned Jews.. I never denied the fact that there are Arab Jews.. and they have the right as any other Arabs to live in Palestine!! as for not mentioning Ibn-Battuta I have forgotten to mention him.. anyway I haven't mentioned many names and there are many other than Ibn-battuta.. hmm.. now regarding conquer and convert I have answered part of this in talkback #99.. and anyway when Muslims did conquer lands they respected the rights of the citizens who lived in those lands.. even religious rights.. anyway I don't think we claim anyone's achievements as our own..

US and European companies use up oil money by making huge useless projects which cost millions.. for ex. in the Gulf region they start a huge project when it's finished they keep it for about a year maximum when all of a sudden they decide to start making unnecessary changes which cost more millions.. or you would find new large buildings every day with no one to live in them (since they don't have dense populations).. as for Gulf leaders spending their money on Hamas and Hezbollah then this is laughable.. do you have any idea that they have cut financial support on the Palestinian people since the goverment of Hamas took rule?? they finance none but themselves.. I think you should check out Avicenna not me.. I already am proud of him.. LOL..

"Israelis lived in Egypt and were suffering from opression and mistreatment when Moses descended in Sinai and saved them after they adopted Judaism .." Lynne, while I wouldn't put it quite this way, I'd agree that this is basically true so far as we know. "Canaanites (who have immigrated from Arabia) at that time were living in Palestine." False, but part of the "Palestinian" narrative. There is no evidence whatsoever that Canaanites came from Arabia. Rather, the evidence seems to point to their Phoenician origins, and the Phoenicians were, apparently, themselves of Greek origin. Nodody has yet defined what precisely "Arab" means or at one time modern-day "Arabs" were on the "Arab Peninsula," but there is no doubt that "modern" Arabs had not yet invaded the area. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan for some details, although most everyone knows that "Canaan" refers to "Sidon," in modern Lebanon.

"If I start with what you called "theft from others".. I understand in here that you do not believe in the fact that civilizations should communicate and exchange culture and knowledge.. " Huh? Lynne, this is such a straw man (an absurd argument that you claim is mine and which you proceed to dispute). Of course it is a good thing when culture and knowledge are shared; "theft" becomes relevant when intellectual products of others are seized and/or not properly attributed to those responsible for them. This concept seems straightfoward. "this exchange does not necessarily happen due to conquer.. it could happen via trade.. " Yes, it could happen via trade, but we know that Arabs conquered most of the lands where they are now the majority. We also know that the Arabian heartland of the Peninsula is a cultural and intellectual backwater, and would be an unlikely origin for revolutionary intellectual discoveries. The Greek genius, in comparison, was always most evident in the Greek heartland. This is because, in general, the Greeks invented and the Arabs seized. I risk repeating myself, but say once again that when Arabs could not conquer, they did not "discover" or "improve" existing knowledge much anymore. "what I say is that Arabs have managed to improve what the Hindus came up with.." Some say the Arabs improved Hindu math, and some disagree. But our dispute was not about "improvement" but, for example, the discovery of key mathematical concepts such as "zero." I fully acknowledge that every group of people contains smart individuals who will build on what they encounter. The question is whether the culture (including the religion) and the social structure facilitate or hinder the growth of knowledge and high culture. " and because they have reached Europe they were able to transmit this knowedge to Europe.. ie. in their invasion of Europe they brought with them culture and civilisation not distruction and bloodshed like what Europe brought with it.. " Yes, it was an "invasion," and, like all invasions, it brought destruction and bloodshed. Do not pretend otherwise, Lynne. "when Arabs and Muslims invaded any part of the world they made it more beautiful.." Oh yeah, they certainly made Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, and, more recently, Morocco and Somalia much more beautiful. Please. But look at Arabia today, under Muslim/Arab control continuously for 1300 years. Where is the beauty, Lynne? The pre-Islamic beauty has been uprooted thanks to Mohammed. The center of your religion is literally and figuratively a desert. "they have built.. for examle.. Spain (Andalusia).. upto now it stands as a symbol of Arab and Islamic architecture .. " I take this architecture very seriously, including the Alhambra of Granada, which is, indeed, miraculous (and that I have personally visited). Alas, you're stealing again. The Muslim kingdoms, including Granada, were MOORISH, not Arab. Perhaps the most obnoxious Arab trait of all is to deny the differences among Muslims and claim everything for Arabia. Let's be clear, though, that I have some doubts about the source of the genious that designed the Alhambra. If you visit, you will see some odd decoration in metal (a window or door as I recall). What does the decoration depict? Believe it or not (and I have the photo to prove it), it depicts A STAR OF DAVID. This is so obvious that I do not know why I could find no reference to it a few years back in an online search. Were the Jews so powerful that they could order OTHERS to add that detail? Surely not. They inserted it because they designed the place. "As for Al-Khawarizmi he is a Persian yes but a Muslim Persian.. why do you wish to hide this?? " Hide it? Persia was already Muslim at the time! My point is that you claimed Al-Khawarizmi was Arab. Why do you wish to hide this?

may it be a year of peace for all.. Phoenicians are not greek.. they were named given the name Phoenicians by Greeks but their origins are also not clear.. anyway.. it's a good thing we finally agreed on something.. ok.. let's say that Canaanites were not Arabs.. what do you want them to be?? Israelis?? fine .. let's say they were Israelis.. and that their land was conquered by Arabs.. is that what you want to get to??. since there is no evidence of who lived there.. how do Israelis claim that they have lived there?? we're not sure about anything .. how do you give yourselves the right to kill and fight for a land you claim to be yours when there is no evidence.. nothing justifies what Israel is doing now..

Happy and Very Sweet New Year! Happy Ramadan, Happy id-el-fitter! Hello, sk. The truncation problem seems to disppear if you read the post via the "see all talkbacks". I believe it is a "misformat" problem. You passion for achitecture is indeed formidable, and I agree with you, all of Andalusia is full of Jewish symbols, and the Spaniards are very proud of it. I also visited the Alhambra, and Cordoba, a.s.o. When we visited Gerona up North, in Catalunia), we asked the tourist information center for instructions, and they directed us straight to the Jewish Quarters, where we had the chance to see a group of French students receiving ample explanations from their teacher, on how the Catholic Church protected the Jews and was actually very eager that they live close to the Cathedral. Nobody can deny the contribution of the Jewish community to Moorish Spain. The reason I mentioned Hebron as described by Ibn-Battuta was to illustrated the fact that in the 14th century Hebron was also a Jewish holy site, yet today, Muslims want a Judenrein Hebron, and also to illustrate the Arab/Muslim habit of building a mosque on top of everybody else's holy shrines in order to erase their rights to those specific sites, as mentioned by sk in Istanbul, as in Hebron, as in Jerusalem, a.s.o. You might want to read about the Jews in Hebron and how they were massacred by their Arab neighbors: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html http://www.professors.org.il/docs/eye.htm As for Avicenna, well he was Muslim, not Arab, Persian-Uzbek; his medicine was based on the teaching of Galen and Hippocrates, his geometry on that of Euclid, I mean, yes, he had his contribution, but he was not all that great, in retrospect. He was found wrong in many aspects, and even Averroes thought his writings were useful only as waste paper. He was certainly no greater than the Rambam, Rabi Moses ben Maimon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides interesing twist here, the "tolerant" Muslim rulers or conquerors of Spain offered the Rambam' s family a generous choice in 1148: conversion to Islam, death or exile. I was intrigued by your mention of the Jewish scholar Benjamin Freedman - he was a businessman, at one time the owner of a soap company. His writings reek of conspiracy - his ravings about WWI - that within two years Germany had practically won it (which is perhaps true), and then magnanimously offered England a peace treaty on a status quo ante basis. What on earth is that? Why did Germany start a war in the first place, and if they had secured victory in two years, why offer the English a return to the ante-war state of affairs? I don't quite get it. I say that's a lot of BS. Of course, it plays right into the hands of the Palestinian cause, but it does not hold water. Moreover, the Germans tried to conquer England again in WWII, seeing that they failed in WWI. Ahad Haahm died in 1927, long before the Jews had any freedom in Palestine, since it was under British Mandate. Perhaps Sami Hadawi invented this quote? He provides no source for this quote, no book, article, year of publication. And it is very incongruous, considering the bulk of Ahad Ha'am's writings. http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/echad_haam.htm (to be continued)

Why thank you, Lynne, for the New Years wishes. I hope you have a fulfilling Ramadan. "ok.. let's say that Canaanites were not Arabs.. what do you want them to be?? Israelis?? fine .. let's say they were Israelis.. and that their land was conquered by Arabs.. is that what you want to get to??. since there is no evidence of who lived there.. how do Israelis claim that they have lived there?? we're not sure about anything .." I don't understand. Canaanites were not "Israelis." "Israel" was the final name given by Hashem (according to Torah) to Jacob. Jews were commanded to expel the Canaanites. The exclusive right to the land was thus given by G-d to the Jews, and to them alone. "how do you give yourselves the right to kill and fight for a land you claim to be yours when there is no evidence.. nothing justifies what Israel is doing now.. " Again, I do not understand. I did not say there was "no evidence" regarding the Jews; i just said that the Canaanites were not Arab. There is no doubt about Jewish presence on, and possession of, land that includes present day Israel. The issue of the Canaanites is irrelevant now because Canaanites no longer exist, so far as we know. The "Palestinian" narrative asserts the Arabness of the Canaanites so as to lay claim on modern day Israeli land. International law is the secular basis for the modern state of Israel. It provides the secular justification to kill and fight for the land. Really, though, Lynne, throughout the world Muslims have claimed other people's land from the time of Mohammed. The idea that religion justifies conquest is not new with Islam, but Islam does seem singlemindedly focused on the conquest of land, and on retaining land after it is conquered. Jews claim Israel as their land. The abundant archaelogical evidence that the "Pals" do their best to destroy supports the claim. In contrast, Muslims seize other people's land. It seems that ultimately all land is subject to Muslim conquest. How exactly can you justify Muslims killing over land that even they don't deny is at present held by non-Muslims?

Anyway, I took the trouble to check out Sami Hadawi, and came up with the following: http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/4/1/Hadawi43-59.html "According to the Palestine Government statistics, the total population of Palestine in 1918 was 700,000 persons. Of these 570,000 were Moslems, 70,000 were Christians, and 56,000 were Jews;[9] with the Jews owning less than 3% of the total land area. According to a study carried out by the British authorities soon after the occupation of the country, the estimated Jewish population between the years 1882 and 1922 was placed at a figure of 24,000 in 1882, rose to 85,000 in 1914, dropped to 56,000 during the war years of 1916-1918, and according to a government census rose in 1922 to 83,794 persons.[10] By the year 1948 when the British mandate over Palestine came to an end, the population of the country stood at 1,415,000 Arabs (including 35,000 "others"), and 700,000 Jews who not formed one-third of the total population.[11] Jewish ownership of land increased from about 3% to about 6%, still an infinitesimal figure." I do not agree that most Christians were Arabs, since so many Greeks and Armenians claim to have been here for several generations (I even had a colleague for a while, a Christian Arab whose grandparents came to Bethlehem from Greece – yet she can claim Palestine for her own? And were there no Druze? They are Arabs, alright, but not Muslims, and they have no problem living side by side with the Jews in the State of Israel and serving in the IDF. What strikes me is that the Muslim population increased nearly 2.5 times in 30 years. That is no natural growth, rather massive migration, in an attempt to balance the inflow of Jews and to thwart the attempts to create a Jewish State over half of ancient Palestine. However, Arabs claim that due to the creation of the State of Israel there are some 800,000 refugees – 1948, 1963, etc., not to mention the "massacres", "genocide", etc. Yet, a great number of Arabs did not flee the country and seem to have survived the alleged crimes against the Arab population. They are now Israeli citizens and live within the State of Israel. The last census shows that they make up 20% of the Israeli population: "According to Central Bureau of Statistics, the population of the State of Israel at the end of 2005 was comprised of 6,990,700 people, of which 5,313,800 were Jewish (76 percent of the entire population), and 1,377,100 were Arab (19.7 percent) according to data published by the Central Bureau of Statistics." In 2003, there were some 1.5 Arabs living in Gaza, alone. Unfortunately I have no data on the West Bank. But somehow the numbers do not add up – genocide means the systematic extermination of a people, or a group of people. Yet the Arab population seems to be on the increase despite the allegations. Strange, don't you think? All in all, I think Hadawi' story is but a story, bearing more similarity to the "Arabian nights" than to actual facts. But why should that surprise anyone? In any case, I shall be back soon with some more comments.

This is not what I had in mind when I promised to be back with more, this is something that I just came across, and I would like to post it here: http://www.nrg.co.il/Scripts/artPrint/artPrint.php?channel=1&channelName=channel_news&ts=26092006162718

this is more like it, the previous posting was in Hebrew http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html