GREAT ARTICLE. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YNET AND ALL MEN OF GOODWILL.

Arja there is overwhelming evidence that Israel was very UNPREPARED (thats a word right?)... Use your brain. Just because someone writes something doesn't make it true. Eugene- Thank you. Just broke the fast (I think I ate too much...). Hope you had an easy fast. I see it as our duty to combat all the anti-Israel posters here, so that people get a balanced view. Even though we know we are right, the world does not. Contrary to popular opinion in Israel, it IS important what the world thinks of us. Take care my friend. Marcel- In your dreams. I would rather be violated by a wild animal than apologize to you. You are a sick human being. May hashem help you.

I have yet to see one Palestinian give an unbiased assessment. When this happens and the world sees the truth in both sides then maybe there will be peace. Atonement should read acceptance.

neither in my heart. Perhaps some wild animal will pass by and make the dirty job, but one day you cannot escape the face to face and the forgery will shine so brilliant to your shame.

Thank you and all the best for you.

Anytime, mate, anytime. You know, the fact that Israel has been monitoring Hezbollah (and the Palio terrorist groups) is only natural. You live next to a thug, you gotta be prepared. No harm in having plan A and B and C ready "en cas d'attaque" (to quote my Tunisian friend). That does not mean Israel is planning to attack anybody, just keeping her ear close to the groud. I suppose Arja would like us to do nothing more than knit winter socks when Syria and Iran are openly talking about war. I wonder whether Arja saw this on her massada site and how she might find some plausible explanation (although she might be able to quote Chomsky or Avneri to justify the savagery): http://www.masada2000.org/ramallah.html or on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramallah Shana Tova U Metuka, everyone, Gmar Hatima Tova! p.s. OBSTINATE?

I do think that the true Muslims and Jews are in fact reflecting and atoning. It is just the matter of the two seeing thru the other's eyes at the issues. I pray that the needless killing and hatred ends soon. It sickens me how many lives are lost to ignorance.

and love message. "I pray (too) that the needless killing and hatred ends soon. It sickens me how many lives are lost to ignorance." Happy new year to you and to all (including Ynet's staff of course)

his looks?

and spun around without a place the stupid books were not written and nobody died for the word of G-D, reach beneath your feet and read the worth of sod. Termite will eat every word of the books and they will become for lack of a better termite, methane.

Eden from Israel is accusing the writer of saying things he did not say. I don't think the article was about what is and is not a fact - it is about the idea of atonment - for lies, for needless violence - for not seeking peace strongly enough. It is a good article I do agree with Eden on one thing Yom Kippur is for atonment for all sins - except that for sins of man against man, you must seek forgiveness from the person you transgressed against before you seek forgiveness from HaShem.

I have heard this moral equivalency term and as a Jew I really don't know what it means. The so called Zionist says that it is not an Israeli Palestinian conflict - that is what the Israeli government and the US scum bag in chif (Dubya) would like to have you believe. But not all the Palestinians are terrorists - and probalby not most of those who voted for HAMAS. And the Palestinians who have had their familiy members killed in an targeted assasination or who have had their houses destroyed or who have had to wait hours to get past of checkpoint (some had died waiting for medical care) or who have had their olive crops vandalized. stolen, or destroyed by Israeli settlers probably feel that it is a conflict with the Israelis - unfortunately, some of them might join the terrorists - I think that Sharon was the leading recruiter of HAMAS and other terrorist groups. I didn't see any ignorance in the original article. I did see some in the comments - especially those of "Zionist"

I appreciate your long response, Dave. Thank you. I believe that with the escalation of violence against people and our planet, the collapse of our "civilization" is inevitable ... logical.. whether it's written in the Bible or not. I always liked Einstein's quote: "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." Israel is constantly preparing for war with its military and weaponry. Edan, give me a break! come on, how can YOU believe that Israel hasn't been preparing to take out Hezbollah, when they KNEW that they were stockpiling weapons across the border. The question was only a matter of WHEN Israel would attack. They just bungled it! The war was ill-conceived and poorly executed. They didn't listen to Michael Oren at the Shalem Center! It would seem that Israel's vicious war on Lebanon has given rise to a "cult of Nasrallah" not just with the Lebanese but the Palestinians. Just look at the success of the song "the Hawk of Lebanon." Nasrallah has become a "local hero" for Palestinians and other Arabs! I hail thee, hawk of Lebanon
I welcome thee, Hassan Nasrallah etc. Hate begets hate; violence begets violence. I am worried about more Islamic fundamentalism in Palestine as a result of this attraction to Nasrallah. In fact, it is alarming because Nasrallah is able to mobilize Arabs all around the world. Eugenie, I agree that Gilad Atzmon is not objective...and it wasn't objective of me to present his angry views. But I did find his perspective very interesting and thought provoking. He's outraged at what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians. He's not as moderate as let's say Rabbi Arik Ascherman from Rabbis for Human Rights, who wrote: >>However, just as I feel myself giving in to my gut reactions, my head gets involved.  Yes, we may have the “right” to attack after we have been attacked on land which the international community recognizes as Israel.  However, after some 100 years haven’t we learned enough to discredit the ideas that we can intimidate the Palestinians through overwhelming force or turn civilians against the terrorists if the civilians suffer enough?  Don’t we understand that, by the same logic, Palestinians are justified in attacking us on their land which we occupy by force?  When my head enters into dialogue with my gut reactions I realize that, even if we are “right” at some level, it is more important to be “smart.” << http://rhr.israel.net/why-i-will-demonstrate Oops someone's added him to masada's list too. Edan, Eugenie, Stewart and others, so what do YOU think about the masada2000.0rg website????

before it was written and the future is already past. look for a safe place and stay away from Chicago. Ray lives there.

Due to a rootkit infection, I eventually had to take down my system and rebuild (reinstall) it. I am still in the process and will be for probably the next couple of weeks. I only have time to complete my required work with the limited installation and limitted productivity software I'm currently running. I'd be glad to answer the questions you directly asked of me in your last posting. Please write me at my displayed email address. We may even be able to have a discussion by phone. I believe the rates from the US to Canada are still much more affordable than the other way around. I haven't spoken to a Canadian in years since I last called an old college friend. Maybe you will feel freer to answer some of my questions outside this public forum. Personally, I think your approach to the current Mideast situation and probably most other geopolitical situations is too logical and lacking in understanding of the dynamics that results in nations resorting to conflict rather than negotiations to settle a dispute. (Shhhhh ... don't tell Ray, but I think he has the same difficulty. Don't let him know we are discussing this or he may catch on that I was actually rolling on the floor laughing as he was continuing to repond with his ranting and raving about how "we" are all "haters" and "extremists" when we don't buy into the Hanania party (political comedy) line. I also feel you are far too idealistic to realize what type of workable, practical and feasible solutions may solve the current Mideast situation. You are extremely well read and have amassed enough resources to write a term paper or maybe even a thesis. I'll do my best to answer your previous questions put to me, and I am sure we can have a civil discussion judging by the tone of your postings. All I ask is that if you are working on a project for school or college, you tell me. I worked on similar issues for a class some time ago.

Now if you were facing a military buildup including a multitude of short range and a number of long range rockets, wouldn't you direct your country to prepare a defensive offensive to take them out at the best credible opportunity. Condider this, if Israel is and was not planning to reocupy Southern Lebenon, would this not be a defensive strategy. I mean, Hizbolla wasn't stockpiling all those rockets to defend itself from Israel in a future attack. They are not those types of missles. Look how well the Israelis were able to destroy so many of them. The Iranian are pretty sore about all the money it cost them to suppy the Hizbo's with missles many or most of them were destroyed. Oh, I talked to an army major not so long ago. Over the years the Syrians, Iranians, and Hizbo's were constructing such a large number of tunnels and bunkers in Southern Lebenon with the purpose of hiding missles and caching weapons, that it would be an issurmontable feat for even the U.S. to destroy them or disarm southern Lebenon completely. Since Hizbolla is not particulary welcomed by the mainstrean Lebenon government and they did not have a particular recent quarl with Israel, it hard to imagine that anyone could imagine the Hizbola's stockplile of weapons as anything but offensive.

Have you ever thought of helping bring peace about instead of inciting further violence? Your TALK, your WORDS could be used to build bridges with the Palestinians, rather than triggering more enemies. I just read about Elik Elihan whose sister died because there is an occupation. In a speech in Japan she spoke the following: If we really want to stop the violence, to make sure no more innocent lives are lost then we must struggle for a peace agreement. You can say `it was tried, there were negotiations. There was an agreement. We failed`. I don`t accept that. We must believe that even if it failed once, an understanding and a compromise can still be reached in a way that will respect both sides` fears and aspirations. This belief has been guiding me in the last nine years. I work for peace in many ways but the most significant one in my eyes is the family forum. In this group there are 500 families that have lost a family member in this conflict, often more then one. 250 from Israel and 250 from Palestine. They know loss and of pain and they still struggle for peace. Through this group I had the possibility of meeting Palestinians, real ones, like a normal Israeli never meets, not stereotypes nor caricatures. Not targets but real people like Ali Abu Awwad that spend 4 years in our jails, who was shot by a settler and whose brother was murdered by a soldier. Nevertheless Ali still wants peace. And there are many others like him. I had a chance to ask them if what we say about them is true: do they really want to throw us in the ocean? Do they really educate their kids to hate us? Is it true that we don`t have anyone to talk to? And they answered me that things are not true, that we do have a partner to talk to and that there is much to talk about. And I learned one other thing: that if I can talk to these people, many of them former members of the Palestinian resistance movements, like the one that killed my sister, and that if they can talk to me after losing family members by the hands of soldiers like I was, if we can talk then anyone can and no one has the excuse not to do so. We want to show people in pain that there is another way to deal with it, through hope rather then hate. In that respect it is very inspiring for me to be here in Hiroshima, an example to the victory of hope over atrocities. In our group we know that peace will only be achieved through dialogue; that it is our duty to promote dialogue because we know best what is the price of not having peace. We know that dialogue and peace can only be promoted by an Israeli-Palestinian solidarity based on respect, understanding and equality. We know that it is imperative that each side will know the story, the suffering and the hopes of the other and we dedicate all of our efforts to promote knowledge. We go everywhere and speak before anyone to say these very simple things: the death of a child is the end, after that death there is no other. Nothing in the world is worth that price. The only way to resolve this conflict is through negotiation, dialogue. And if we can speak then anyone can. (www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=16005)

Arja, Elik Elhanan is a man whose 14-year-old sister was murdered in a suicide bombing. In my opinion, nothing justifies suicide bombings. Here's an open letter to the Palestinian you might like to check out: http://busywolf.blogspot.com/2006/09/open-letter.html

So Israel's illegal occupation is justified, their attacks on Palestinians on Palestinian land is justified, the murder of innocent civilians in bombings, the house demolitions - all that is justified? Anyway, I am glad to find evidence of people who are working for peace in various programs in Israel/Palestine. What this man, Elik was doing sounded like a positive step to trying to understanding and empathize with the pain that's felt on both sides of the conflict.

proves nothing... It's a letter that has been circulating for many years. www.factnet.org/discus/messages/5/417.html?1109372036 has the same letter posted in 2002!!! BUT YOUR version has added some despicable cartoons that stereotype Arabs in a hateful fashion. Paul Heyman's comment on Sunday, Aug. 06, 2006 at 6:29 PM to this letter is as follows and I kind of agree with him: The only difference of opinion I have is that that imploring statement has to be made to both sides. The author I believe is misguided in his data and therefore makes erroneous conclusions about Palestinians. The way I see it, they were living there in peace, and the Israeli's displaced in Europe were given a one way ticket to go in and take over Palestine forcebly. That is the heart of the war today, and it has been furthered by other Arab countries (and until a few years ago also USSR) on the Palestinian side and the US on the Israeli side. So, the war has gone on and on. The author argues that if one goes farther back, the Israelis were there first, so the land rightfully belongs to them. Not really. When they got to the "land of milk and Honey" thousands of years ago, it was not uninhabited. They took it over forcebly from those who were already there. But it doesn't matter how far back you want to go, you can always find something somewhere that makes you conclude, "Well, they were there first." 
The bottom line is this. Live and let live, love and let love. The question is which side will have the guts to do make the first totally committed, unconditional move in that direction. The risk is great (one stands to lose it all) but so is the gain if successful. And if love truly conquers all, the peacemaker will truly be blessed, as will be his warring neighbor, with lasting, true peace. (http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/21066_comment.php#21248)

first of all, it is not MY VERSION, it is some blogger's version. Blogs have become very popular nowadays and attract a lot of readers. One thing, though, what makes you think that whatever you choose to write by yourself, or quote here, is anything but opinion, supported by questionable (at least) theories? How many times do we have to churn the occupation thing over? The British Mandate Palestine, which covered Israel, Jordan and perhaps more, was intended for partition between the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs never accepted that partition, and that is the source of all the conflict. Who was here first? Certainly not the Arabs and not the Muslims. You run your own search for Ramallah (established as a Christian town), Nablus (established by the Israelites) and see for yourself. You open any history book and read about how the Jews were deported to Babylon and then allowed to return, and how the Roman ransacked the Second Temple and took the Golden Menorah back to Rome (they needed the gold to finance the Dacia campaign). Read about the Jewish Revolts and Jewish wars in ancient times. Even in Jesus' time there were Jews all over Israel (albeit somewhat Hellenized). There were Jews here (true, in small numbers) all the time. Have you heard of Sir Moses Montefiore? Perhaps a little google search might enlighten you. Besides, Gaza is no longer occupied, Ramallah, Beth-Lehem, Nablus, Jenin, are no longer occupied. Some illegal West Bank settlements were evacuated last summer, but all we got in return was Qassams launched from Gaza and unending terror threats and attempts. Just see my #5 talkback on this sheet. Itzhal Rabin signed a peace treaty with Arafat. Did the Palestinians abide by it? Ehud Barak was willing to give them almost everything. Did Arafat take it? Do they want to sit down and negotiate now? Obviously not. So what exactly do you want from me? Do you know how many people in Israel have lost relatives to terror attacks? Well, some of them land on the other side of the political spectrum. So the fact that someone lost a loved one to terror does not make their political affiliation more justifiable than anyone else's. Just as parents or wives of fallen soldiers cannot impose their views on peace and war on the government or on the public. They may try, yes, there is freedom of speech, but in the end everybody makes up their own mind. As to the occupation, the days of unilateral disengagement are over. The Palestinians need to come to terms with the fact that Israel is not going anywhere any time soon, and take their seat at the negotiations table. Right now, they are rioting and killing each other. Al-Qaeda just blew up a cafe in Gaza. As to who started the Lebanon war: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/07/AR2006100701054.html

I have been following the talkback dynamic ever since Ray's column on the Palestinian rights, and I have become aware of a certain pattern: talkbakers begin to react more or less to the point. Then Sara from Ramallah plunges in to compliment the author on yet another smashing success. Then Arja steps in with some inflammatory comments about Palestinian oppression, Uri Avneri, etc. all that stuff. Or the other way around, first Arja, then Sara, then Arja once more. This usually brings on more reactions from Stewart, Dr.NO, sometimes Mark, or other very useful contributors. Arja protests on behalf of Palestinian rights, Ray labels everybody (opponents, i.e.) as mud-throwers, haters and such, followed by a few more reactions, before the column dies of natural causes - boredom and irrelevance. I guess Ray's only interest is what he candidly declared a few columns ago, he wants a record 800-reactions to his articles. I believe he is the only columnist to actually intervene and increment the hit counter.

well, I took the trouble to open the link posted by you re the Open Letter. What can I say? you are so One-sided (remember the O words?)!!! You choose just one comment out of so many, e.g.: Ortal, Oct. 26, 2004: I think that your open letter, Mr. White, was very thought-provoking. I am 15 years old and I am from Israel. I currently live in the UK, and I live in a community with lots of arabs and muslims. When i first came to live here, i got along with them just fine, but after a while, they went overboard by bringing politics and racism into it. I am not the sort of person who uses violence, or any sort of action against anyone, but i felt that they get away with far too much. I tried talking about it with them, but that obviously doesnt work. Any sort of "peace talks" with them doesnt work. I am willing to take action, but once again, i will not use violence. But some people must understand that sometimes the only language they understand is force. Nothing else, just force. or this, by methuselah, on Feb 19, 2005: There is some very interesting debate going on about this whole Israel/Palestine dispute. The reason why I supported the letter at the top of the page was firstly because for me it faced the reality that an intafada has only served to harm Palestinians and their cause. Now in regard to any wrongdoing by Israel I am not going to defend the indefensible. {Excuse the statement of the blindingly obvious} I take the pragmatic view that it is better for everybody all round for both sides to accept the right of the others existance and right to live in the region. I know this is not going to be popular and many will have serious ethical questions about that stance but it is surely the only way forward. There is really no other option. It has been shown that the only time peace has ever looked likely was when Palestinians looked like getting the oportunity to rule themselves and Israel's security is assured. I know that a perfect solution concerning the land is impossible. There is no right answer here. An answer that keeps people from killing each other would be better than nothing though. One thing I am convinced of is that the Palestinian uprising has done more to undermine their hopes for autonomy, freedom and safety and prosperity than anything else they could have done. It is totaly counterproductive, totaly illogical and bordering on national suicide. Israel were never going to just lie back and take that. Violence begets violence. Whatever Israel's faults {and they are many} they are far more likely to seek a peaceful resolution to the conflict than Palestine under Arafat. It's not a nice thing to say but I'm relieved the man is dead. One of the worst things that happened for the cause of peace was when 'Rabin' was assassinated. It's a testimony to Arafats self destructive policies that the opposite can be said of his demise. or this one, by Carlotta, on Feb 25, 2005: Hi All, I haven't posted here in a while because things seemed to be going well with the peace process. Today, just now, I heard that there was a suicide bomb outside a night club in Tel Aviv and my heart is broken. A terrorist group called "Islamic Jihad" has claimed responsibility. It is sooooooo very frustrating and terrible. I am about two seconds away from ever being able to speak in defense of the Palestinians again. Yet, I know that the terrorists who did this do not represent all the Palestinian people and there must be many Palestinians whose hearts are also broken tonight. Ugh. Terrible. Awful. So bad. My thoughts are with the victims.

Paul Heyman's comment has become unavailable? or is there something wrong with your link? But what do you think of this site for balance: http://www.arabsforisrael.com/index.html

Eugenie, it's at the bottom of the page. When I clicked on my link it worked for me. I do like Nonie Darwish's message of peace and love. I do agree with her assessment of extreme Islam. It must be difficult for progressive muslims to be tainted by what extremists do in the name of Islam. I know of Jews who feel that same way about extremist Zionists; on the topic one "self-hating Jew" wrote to me, "there is no limit to human evasiveness and self-deceit." Based on what Nonie Darwish says about the USA, I think she's bought into the American media's depiction of "reality" - a matrix of illusion and lies. But she has good intent and that I like, yet misguided and misinformed on some details, I think. Perhaps I should write her some email......she seems like a nice person. Thank you, Eugenie, for alerting me to that courageous woman.

The reason I repeat the "O" word is because I need to focus on what's critical, or so my profs have always told me. So I repeat "occupation" while you repeat "suicde bombing." As I'm in the process of watching a video at video.google.com The Killing Zone a documentary on Gaza (highly recommend it), I wonder which are worse, suicide bombings or Israeli bombings - both murder innocent victims, both are terrorist acts, only the latter by Israel seem to be sanctioned. THAT's why I focus on the "o" word. It's at the root of a lot of evil.