Don't worry, they're not picking just on you! Believe it or not, not all my posts make it the first time.... and one or two never made it. Your statement of Palestinians are a myth is a FALSEHOOD. It was chutzpah.. insolence.. of Golda Meir in 1969 to assert that there was no such thing as a Palestinian people. And yet whether or not there was such a people doesn't really matter! There were people living on the land when the Jews moved to what was called Palestine (even by the Zionists) and thus the Jews displaced people who had been living there for generations, not migrants who moved there just before the Jews arrived. The identity of these people is immaterial, has no bearing on whether the Israelis should occupy the territory or control the people who live there. Neither ancient history nor the Jewish god of the Bible give the Jews the authority to take over the land of another people the way the Israelis have been doing.

knows no limits. Since she knows exactly what a Palestinian is, when Arabs themselves cannot make up their minds if Palestine is Jordan or Syria. Jews born in mandate Palestine are Palestinians as well, as Palestine was recorded as place of birth on their birth certificates. The following is a letter submitted to the New York Times in 1975 which the New York Times did not see fit to print (Arthur Kahn and Thomas Murray, The Palestinians: A Political Masquerade, Published by Americans For A Safe Israel) Dear Sir: Your newspaper frequently uses the term "Palestinian" to describe a section of the Middle East population which is Arab, to differentiate it from Israeli Jews. As the holder of a Palestinian Identity Card and a Certificate of Discharge from a Palestinian Unit of the British army, I find this practice annoying and certainly untrue... We Palestinian Jews wore the uniform of the British Army, and on our shoulder epaulettes the single word, "Palestine" in English. We tried to get permission to wear Hebrew insignia, fly the Jewish flag and be recognized as Palestinian Jews, but-no, Palestinian meant Jew and Arab, and who cared if there were fewer than 3000 Arabs as compared to 36,000 Jews in khaki? In British army nomenclature, the equivalent of a GI is BOR, meaning British Other Rank. We were formally known as POR , Palestinian Other Ranks. So we fought the war as Palestinians, set up the Jewish Brigade as Palestinians, and I'll be damned if I agree that only Arafat and his assassins are Palestinians. As a Palestinian, I was arrested by the British on suspicion of smuggling immigrants into the country. As a Palestinian, I had the honor of commanding the 329th Palestinian Company of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (all Jews). There were no equivalent Arab units. Once a British general said to me, "Migawd, I have so many things to dislike you for, for being a Jew, American born, a Palestinian-and you don't even know how to handle a knife and fork! So cut it out, please. Call them what you will, but not Palestinians. Yours truly, Joe Criden http://www.afsi.org/MEDIA/newsLinks/shockers/m100.htm p.s. our late President, Ezer Weizman, was a Palestinian, born in Tel-Aviv in 1924. He was a British RAF officer in WWII, and proud of it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezer_Weizman

HAHANIA BROUGHT IT UP SO , EVIDENTLY HIS WIFE IS OF A WEAK CHARACTER THAT SHE WOULD MARRY OUTSIDE. IMPOSSIBLE TO PRACTICE JUDAISM WITH A NON JEW IMPOSSIBLE TO STEP UP TO IMPROVE YOUR JUDAISM AND OBSERVANCE WITH A NON JEW UNDER THE SAME ROOF PRACTICING OR BELIEVING IN ANOTHER RELIGION UNDER THE SAME ROOF IS NOT JUDAISM AND THE CHILDREN? OH PLEASE.. LETS STOP.. THIS IS A FORBIDDEN MARRIGE AND NOT ACCEPTED IN A TORAH COMMUNITY TORAH FORBIDS THIS.. TORAH TEACHES THE JEWISH PEOPLE TO SEPERATE FROM THE OTHER NATIONS INODER NOT * TO ASSIMILATE NOT TO WEAKEN YOUR OBSEVANCE TO STRENTHEN YOUR TIES TO THE LAWS THAT MOSES BROUGHT TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL. NO TOLERANCE AND INTERMINGLING IS NOT ACCEPTED IN THIS MATTER DO NOT WASH DOWN JUDAISM... BUILD WALLS TO STRENTHEN IT... signed DACON9

a dirty word and maybe more people will take you seriously. Replace what YOU MEAN with "Messianic Zionism". Not "extreme" Zionism, that makes no sense. It is the Messianic Zionists who need to wake up to reality not the Zionists. Just a suggestion....

who happened to be living in the territory some people called Palestine. Is that better? In any case there were PEOPLE living in the area and they had to give up THEIR homes, THEIR land for the Jews and they still are giving up their land for more settlements for Israelis while their homes are being demolished. Have you a euphemism for "occupation" as well? What do YOU call it when you take over someone's land that doesn't belong to you?

"So here is my apology Ray - Sorry for having a brain which has enabled me too see through your propaganda. Too bad your wife is a different story, apparently. " Better late than never

Arja, have you taken up my offer to contact me directly? I cannot get access to my email account. The site is either not fully operational or it is experiencing problems. If you are working on a term paper or thesis, let the "Talkback" readers know. Examples and quotes won't do with most profs unless they are very biased towards your position then they may eat it up. You can still argue your points, but not the way you are attempting here. As you can see, even the casual "Talkback" writer is more informed of facts and accepted framing of facts and arguements (such as, as accepted by previous UN agreements and resolutions) than you are. Also,quoting prominent or questionably prominent Jews and Israelis does make a strong argument either. First of all, their conclusions and opinions are no stonger than the facts and premises on that they are based. Secondly, pointing out faults or trangressions of Israel does not weaken the argument for the existance of a *Jewish* state. For example those who scream "war crimes" were committed in Lebenon do not earn points against Israel in the Palestinian versus Israeli argument or the the argument concerning the legitimacy of Israel in Israel (not in Uganda or whatever) as a *Jewish* state. These are separate issues. Also, I doubt anyone can show me a country that fought the "perfect" defensive war as far as colateral damage is concern. It does not matter if Israel prepared for this conflict. There are no nations that do not prepare for any likely conflict. (Well, there may be, but I bet they are not nations long after that!) Lastly, saying that Arabs and Palestinians do not have the very basic rights of citizens, that is protection under the law, in Israel is also a specious argument. A number of legitimate states have been created or set up as a homeland for an indigenous people on their native land that may otherwise be considered a minority in their region. There is no reason why the world decisions and events that followed should not stand just because it does not find approval with the current hard line Muslim regimes in the region. The issue of a Palestinian homeland can also be worked out someday if those good people could just come to their senses and refraim from voting for terrorist political leadership (Hamas and Hizbolla) or strapping on bomb belts and blowing themselves to "Kingdom Come" along with anyone else in the effected perimeter, and the Palestinians could decide to enter into consistent and committed talks on taking over and securing the land that can be given to them. Oh, and Sarah, comforting and supporting Ray in past columns may not help anything. Remember, Hanania admitted his articles are "sarcasm and nothing more." I don't believe you can measure Hanani's success by the validity of his arguments and facts. He doesn't have the time or space for that since his goal is sarcasm or a good laugh. Rather, the success of his articles are better measured by how well they are done in comparison to an award winning satirical writer like late Mike Royko incidentaly also from Chicago. continued

And to PERPETUAL DREAM. Your example of the Israeli girl ashamed of her country and hating being Jewish for the acts she *feels* her government perpetrated against inocent Arab Americans ... (OR anything else you want to imagine against innocent Arabs or Palestinians) ... THIS is a real tear jerker. It truely justifies every criticism of every Jew and Israeli ever presented by Hanania or "Talkback" writers. PLEASE have this young, innocent, close, Jewish aquaintence of yours write into "Talkback" so others my assess her observations and mature perception of the facts so we can make up our own minds. We may agree with her, or we may enlighten her. BY THE WAY, NO ONE HAS OFFERED TO EXPLAIN HOW ALL YOU, ARJA, SARAH, PERPETUAL DREAM AND SIMILAR OTHERS(BUT ESPECIALLY ARJA) MANAGE TO GET ON WITH LIFE AND STILL FIND TIME TO APPEAR TO BE A FULL TIME CONTRIBUTOR TO "TALKBACK". TELL ME HOW YOU DO IT. I NEED A SECOND JOB. I NEED THE MONEY. :-)

No, Stewart I'm not working on any term paper. Israel's war on Lebanon reignited my interest in Israel/Palestine conflict. I attended a UN NGO meeting on Palestine some 15 years ago in Montreal. I also attended a whole day session on Palestine in Ontario. Actually I had always sided with Jews because I had many Jewish friends in Toronto. Like many others, I used to think, if only the Palestinians stopped their suicide bombings.... Perhaps it's my immense disappointment in the Jews that fuels my interest in the conflict. The Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is so incredibly monstrous, that I just cannot stay silent any longer.

your big fat foot in your pretty little mouth: "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. ". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth. "Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so. "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them. "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country. "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less. "And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism. "The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! "My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76. Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." you are disappointed in JEWS because if ISRAELI politics.

I expected more compassion from a people who suffered so much because of all the antisemitism and the holocaust. Was that so wrong of me, Eugenie?

unless you are in a suicidal mood, you cannot show too much compassion to those who wish to destroy you. A people who suffered so much must learn to defend themselves and stop being everybody's whipping boys. And if you are in a suicidal mood, better run to a psychiatrist and get proper medical atention. But then, Arja, this is a soapbox column, not to be taken too seriously. Plus the moderator" is a stand-up comedian (court jester?). So this entire column must not be taken too seriously and blown out of proprotion. it's the electronic version of speaker's corner in Hyde Park - people walk by and hardly take any notice.

You both have compelling arguments here. Please do not let it fall into a pit Sadly, my knowledge of the history of the area of Palestine is limited to a reading of "The Source" by Michener and some web-based reading including all related UN mandates directed to the area. It seems, though, that living in peace together, wherever, no matter our beliefs, is the only path if we are to have a future.. Eugenie, you are an extremely intelligent person. As are you, also, Arja. We all suffer for the acts of our fathers and their fathers. We now have the opportunity to trust eachother and find a peace that works. A True peace. The truest trust comes from placing your trust in someone you know you cannot trust. To teach true peace.

Well, maybe if Israel had shown compassion right from the beginning, recognizing that many Palestinians gave up their homes for the Jews, the story would be different 60 years later. And the Palestinians have nothing to fear from the Israelis? Just being "collateral damage" from stray or aimed IDF bullets and bombs, house demolitions, as well as humiliating checks and long waits at checkpoints where they can die for lack of medical care because they can't get to a doctor. The list is long. But then the Palestinians are RESISTING Israeli occupation, they are the victims of Israeli war crimes. Why SHOULD they have compassion for their oppressors? What would YOU do, Eugenie, if YOU were in THEIR shoes? I bet you'd resort to anything you could to resist and fight back against those who were controlling your life.

Well, in a nutshell, I would consider the option of peace that Israel has not ceased to offer: stop arming myself, stop attacking Israel's civilians and troops, negotiate the borders, redirect the generous aid received from the West from terror purposes to welfare - schools, hospitals, develop agriculture, tourism. I would not send women and children to blow themselves up in Israel, I would not allow terror cells to use civilian residences or areas to launch rockets into Israel (aimed at civilians only), in fact I would ban any terrorist organizations operating from my territory and exposing my civilian population to retaliation. I would not allow the same terrorists to use ambulances and press vehicles for terror operations. I would not allow the same terrorists to infiltrate into Israel and shoot at passing cars, or killing children in their beds in their own homes. I would not dance on rooftops and pass out candy when Americans and other westerners get killed in terror attacks in London, Madrid, New York, Bali. I would not allow muslim preachers in my mosques to incite violence against non-muslims. I would not teach babies and toddlers that killing the infidel (whom I would not call monkeys and pigs and dogs) makes allah happy. I would not allow history books used in my education system to teach that my neighbor (Israel) does not exist and has never existed. I would not lynch or allow the lynching of my own compatriots on the mere suspicion of "collaborating" with the enemy, I would rather give them a fair trial and establish the extent of their treason or guilt, if any. Even if found guilty, I would not have them executed by a firing squad in the center of Gaza in front of a bloodthirsty audience. I would expose those of my leaders stole the aid funds donated or raised for my benefit. I would not allow my children or brother to star in Pallywood productions. I would not "fabricate" martyrs, such as Muhamad a-dura, or claim that children killed in car accidents or falling from playground equipment, were killed by Israeli missiles. I would not campaign around the world in a pathetic attempt to recruit useful idiots to uphold my cause. Basically, I would opt for PEACE.

thank you, Michael, but as you can see, I am trying to stay alive in Jerusalem, while under heavy fire from Arja based in far-away Canada. In fact, all I am trying to do here, along with some other people who seem to have abandoned this sheet, is defend, as best I can, my country. It is regretful that people in this day and age can be duped so easily by propaganda and lies, rather than try and perform a reality check. But then Israel-bashing is the new fashion trend, isn't it?

"It is regretful that people in this day and age can be duped so easily by propaganda and lies, rather than try and perform a reality check." Exactly my sentiments ....... The US and Israel are masters at propaganda and brainwashing. The 21st centrury propaganda is so much more subtle than during the cold war but hiring NYC publicists to wage a PR campaign has reallly benefited Israel. Are you so sure the Peace offers by Israel were so wonderful for the Palestinians, and not totally biased in favour of the Israelis? How did the continued building of settlements build trust? How do collective punishments help build peace or trust? Did you read Aviad Kleinberg's column? I liked what he wrote: "It was outright violence, foolish evil that demonstrates our brutality and the loss of any basic human capability for empathy towards man – let alone the enemy.....The inability to recognize injustice, to see and hear morality, and to comprehend it, is the worst of all curses. I recognize the symptoms in myself; I recognize them within my society, but not to worry, it'll be gone in an instant and we can resume our routine."

Arja, beggars can't be choosers. Arabs have started every single war since 1948, and lost all of them. Peace is offered by the winning party. The Arabs could have agreed to the partition offered by the British and avoided all the bloodshed. You start the war, you lose and then complain that the victor is not fair? Do you think that if the Arabs had won the war there would have been any Jew left around in the Middle East? As to the PR, you are wrong again, but that does not surprise me at all: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjUzMGU4NTMyOTdkOTdmNTA1MWJlYjYyZDliODZkOGM= and this http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33898 (especially point 10) and even this: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11299 Besides, Joseph Farah might enlighten you as to the rights and properties of the Palestinians, and who is really colonizing Israel (illegally) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28222 and here http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066 http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22564 Besides, Arja, even Ray has moved away from this column. Which is what I am doing as well. Cheerio! p.s. I know I can't convince you, but perhaps other readers, such as Michael, might find additional sources of knowledge. You are actually doing Israel a very precious service. Thank you!

For your reply. I am trying to learn the reality of the situation there, best done by chatting with people on the ground. From what I can see, peace is going to be difficult to attain. There are too many past injustices on both sides for a "forgiveness" to take place equally. And I have little faith in the UN at this point. I guess I am exasperated, old, sick and worrying about my daughters' futures. All I can do is wish for peace.

Eugenie, the first article by Yousseff Ibrahaim is excellent. It tells me different story than it does to you. It tells everyone what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is a powerful indictment AGAINST Israel Thank you, because I have now found more to study, more articles by Youssef Ibrahim, as well as Henry Siegman at the Council on Foreign Relations. Last night I listened to a talk given by Tanya Reinhart in Australia. She no longer feels she can live in Israel because of how abhorent the government has become to her. Eugenie, her interpretations of the situation in Israel have more weight than anything you have been able to provide. www.usyd.edu.au/podcasts/2006/sydneyideas_reinhart.mp3 I am currently reading Drinking the Sea at Gaza by Amira Hass - very intersting. I regularly read Uri Avenery's articles on what's happening in Israel as well. His latest is called the Great Experiement: "IS IT possible to force a whole people to submit to foreign occupation by starving it?" www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html Eugenie, I can imagine how difficult it must be to live in Israel with so many Arabs surrounding your small country, with increasing Arab hatred towards Israel, with yet possibly another war in the works. The US wants to attack Iran and from my reading, they want the help of Israel in this matter. So much pain on all sides .... But I just can't see how Israel is helping make things better... any more than are the actions of the USA... or Canada. Well, I better get back to the other websites you recommended Eugenie. Yes, it is time to abandon the feedback at this site. Michael, yes, the UN is weak, and one reason it is powerless is that some countries have the power to veto. When every country in the world votes on a resolution against Israel and then it gets vetoed by the USA, what can the UN do? The USA has unilaterally decided to become the international police. I too feel quite exasperated by the insanity of the world and our "world leaders"! Michael have you seen a book called Escaping the Matrix; how we the people can change the world by Richard Moore? You might find it very interesting.

Just ordered the book from Barnes - looks like interesting reading. It's windy, cold and raining here. Good day for a fire and some reading. I agree about the UN. Abolish the security council and have all members be equal. - Lacks democratic balance. Sad that our elected representatives are letting us down everywhere. Eugenie and Arja - I wish you peace and a better world.