US: Israel discriminating against Arab-Americans
Published: 20.10.06, 10:52
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61. We are smart - that's why we are still alive
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.21.06)
Being critical is good if there is any subtance in your criticism. Tell me something John, is it allowed to ever criticize the US without being defined as an "enemy" ? Or do you believe that criticism is allowed to go from the US to Israel but not vice versa? If you believe that, then you are anti-Semitic. In the same way as the US can criticize Israel, Israel can, for good reason criticize America. America has toppled many regimes in Africa and Latin America over the past half century. I haven't heard any apologies from you. America has secretly placed CIA - agents all over Europe and thus VIOLATING the sovereignity of many European nations. In other words, if America is doing something wrong, then the rest of the world is allowed to criticize it. America's support for Israel is both LOGICAL and RIGHT because it is the Judeo-Christian bond, western democracy, freedom, patriotism and mutual values that tie these two countries together. Furthermore, Israel and the US are fighting terrorism, they pursue peace and freedom and have a scientific, military, technological and cultural cooperation. Israel is one of very few countries left i the world that remain pro-American. If you would get smart, you would make sure to keep your few friends you have got left. Besides, why and how are you personally involved in US-Israel relations? "Criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism"? You must be kidding me. Israel is the most criticized nation in the world despite the fact that its wrongdoings are just a drop in the ocean compared to the US, Europe and the rest of the world. You are allowed to criticize Israel as long as your intention is not to expose Israel to: 1.) Discrimination 2.)Demonization 3.)Deslegitimization 4.)Double standards and 5.)Dispersion of false accusations. My next question to you is: For what reason do you want to criticize Israel? To criticize an injustice? What injustice? An occupation? What occupation? Jews have lived here in Israel for 4000 years. The Arabs never bothered to establish an Arab state - not even before 1948 Discrimination? Sure, there is discrimination in Israel, in the US and in the rest of the world.
62. Israel is the worlds anti arab nation!!
alex ,   new york   (10.21.06)
Omg israel stop killing all these freakin arabs for no reason like u did in lebanon!
63. Your arguments don't hold water Alexander
John ,   USA   (10.21.06)
While you have provided some insighful and interest theories, under closer scrutiny, they just don't hold water. First, to answer your first question, criticising the US is as American as baseball and apple pie. In the current context, I would say it is un-American to not criticise the US govenrment in the face of Bush's wrongdoing. I encourage anyone to tell me what the US is doing wrong. In this world, I believe that everyone needs to have a voice because we need to find a way to all get along. Most Americans would agree with this view. Only the neocons call people traitors for critcizing Bush and the so-called war on terror (just one example.) But this doesn't add up to the question at hand: Why are people anti semitic if they criticise Israel? Is Israel so moral and just it defies criticsim from the outside? Of course not. Is critisizing Israel the same as being a Jew hater? Of course not. "Judeo-Christian bond"? This is a figment of your and fanatical right wing Christians imagination. It's not based on traditional Christian values. It's a recent invention. Military cooperation? Sure. Except I question if the US needs this kind of cooperation with Israel. Israel a democracy? Sort of, that's if your're Jewish. Could you elect a Muslim prime minister? Why are Israeli Arabs so afraid of expressions of support for the Palestinian cause if that were true? America has long been looked to as this "shining beacon" thing, that is to say people want America to lead the world in freedom and democracy. Clinton did this really well, America had reclaimed her role as moral leader under Clinton. Bush squandered all this, it will take years to recover, if ever again. Israel has long been considered an enemy of peace and freedom by the rest of the world, only in the US is Israel considered somewhat moral. So I would say "with friends like Israel, who needs enemies?" Why am I so "personally involved in US-Israel relations"? That's my business, none of your concern. Did I ask you why you defend Israel with your logic? Yes, many times I feel I am accused of being "anti semitic" in these posts. Maybe it's true, but I ask the questions, I want to know the answers. Tell my why I should feel differently if you disagree and I will consider your opinion. Why do I want to criticize Israel? Well in the context of this Ynetnews article, I think it's obvious. I demand the right to criticize anything that I feel is unjust, tell me why I'm wrong, maybe I change my mind. Arabs never had a state because they never needed one until the colonial powers showed up. Arabs had states after WWII after the powers left. Discrimination, well at least we agree on something. But at least in the US it's deinstitutionalized and illegal.
64. I don't mean to insult you...
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.22.06)
... but it's actually the other way round. Neo Conservatives have critized America's immoral policy over the years and protested the ruthless and immoral realpolitik of the previous governments of the United States over the past half century which lead to the toppling of governments in Africa and Latin America. Neo Cons on the contrary strive to pursue a moral policy and to spread democracy and freedom in the same way as America transformed Germany, Italy and Japan into western democracies. Either you are ignorant and do not know the agenda of the Neo Cons or you are an enemy of democracy and freedom OR you might be one of those pessimistic guys of the political left wing that do not believe in democracy in the Arab world. People are anti-Semitic if they critize Israel to expose it to: 1.)Discrimination 2.)Demonization 3.)Double standards 4.)Deslegitimization and 5.)Dispersion of false accusations. I hold you accountable on all charges, especially the last one. Denying the Jewish people the rights and freedom the most nations in the world take for granted IS DE FACTO ANTI-SEMITISM, including REWRITING OF HISTORY, SPREADING FALSE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT "THE OPPRESSED PALESTINIANS" (ARABS INVOLVED IN REWRITING OF HISTORY, DEMOGRAPHIC WARFARE, TERRORISM, ANTI-SEMITISM AND INCITEMENT AGAINST JEWS AND THE CREATION OF A FAKE, FALSE "IDENTITY" WITH THE PURPOSE TO STEAL JEWISH/ISRAELI LAND) and the constant repeated lies about the Israeli "occupation" . Israel is the legal, historical and moral owner of the land of Israel. No John, you are no misguided naive romantic freedom fighter protesting the "injustice"of the world. If that would be the case you would protest the deaths of 1 million Muslims in the Iraq-Iran war during the 1980:s, the civil war in Algeria (1 million dead), deportation of almost 1 million "Palestinians" from Kuwait during Iraq War 1, the civil war in Yemen, the massacres on Kurds, Assyrians, Berbers, Chercassians, Jews and Kopts in the Arab world, Marocko's occupation of West Sahara, China's occupation of the people of Tibet, Russia's massmurder on the people of Sibiria and the Caucasus and so on. You have an obsession with Israel. You also have an obsession to disperse false accusations against Israel so that you can give legitimacy to your "criticism" (rather hatred) against Israel. You are not being honest. You are hiding things and you know it... It's one thing to ACTUALLY commit wrongdoings and BEING ACCUSED OF COMMITING WRONGDOINGS. Israel is trying to survive in a hostile world that tries to obliterate the Jewish civilization from the face of the world - either by wars and terrorism on one hand or by demographic warfare, cultural wars and false accusations on the other hand. There is no legal discrimination of Arabs or Muslims in Israel. Arabic is the second official language of Israel. Arabs have voting rights, are exempt from military service, have freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of press(there are Arab -speaking newspapers in Israel), right of possession, religious freedom and, if they are popular enough, sits every now and then in the government. Personally, I don't want a Muslim prime minister. Why? Because our Arabs/Muslims are disloyal. They want to take over our country and cooperate with our enemies. Would the French during WW2 elect a German President of France? I doubt it. Yes Clinton lead the world to freedom. Especially in Rwanda and Burundi where millions of people were slaugthered and massacred. And yes, Bush is cruel. He wanted to stop the massmurder in Sudan whereas the "enlightened" Europe wasn't sure whether it was massmurder or not to kill more than 50000 or maybe even more than 100000 people.
65. Back at you....`
John ,   USA   (10.23.06)
About the neo cons. Let's just say I totally disagree with your view. About your views on Anti semitisim. Again, I totally disagree. You hold the extreme Zionist view, which I feel is totally illogical. I'm not the only one. It's based on faith, nothing more. Any time you mix faith with politics it's bad in my book. Now about me personally, you really don't understand me. Because yes I do, I am upset anytime someone wages war. I only think about the innocent women and children. I think about the harm done to society and the psychy of people. I don't have an obsession with Israel, I only seek to understand this aberration. I think Israel is a country and people that suffers from post stress disorder en mass. Think about it: The Middle ages, The Pogrums, WWII, Hitler, 1948, Suez Canal, Six Day, Yom Kippur, Lebanon 1982, Lebanon 2000, Lebanon 2006? So I sympathise with Israel, but I reserve the right to still critisisize. I have nothing to hide, I live my life asking myself "What would Jesus say, what would Jesus do." Sometimes I digress to my human failings, but I do sleep well at night. Like I said, at least we can agree on discrimination. But I think your the victim of your own propaganda if you think Muslims and Arabs in Israel are not discriminated against. They live like cowards afraid to express themselves for the know if they did they would wind up in jail. They are disloyal for good reason, what reason do they have to be loyal? (It's funny: First you tell me they are not discriminated against, then you tell me they're disloyal? Think again.) Bush will go down in history as our worst president, mark my word. History will be my proof. Bush has made a hell-of-a mess, and Israel will suffer because of it more than anyone else. Muslims are totally nuts now. He turned Al Qaida from a criminal fringe group into something almost repectable in the Muslim world. Remarkable. Thanks for the opportunity to express my views. While I realize we are at different ends of the spectrum, I appreciate the conversation. Remember people will always seek to believe what the want to, and seek out evidence to support their views. Take care, see ya in future posts.
66. Hello again...
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.23.06)
Concerning Neo Cons - I am presenting facts - not feelings. We must separate facts from opinions. The only way to determine whether a policy works or not is to implement it. It worked to establish a western democracy in Germany, Italy and Japan. Neo Cons stand for individual freedom, low taxes, patriotism, family values, a minimal state and capitalism - a perfect receipe for the success of a society. I have no "extreme" Zionist views. If someone tries to infringe upon my individual, human and national rights and freedom and even my life - I will defend myself. What's "extreme" about that? Yes, criticize Israel if you want to and I will listen if there is any substance and facts in your accusations. I am not mixing faith with politics. I have a strong ideological base yes, but I am not even remotely religious - if that's what you meant. There is no legal discrimination against Arabs and Muslims and that's a fact and no Arabs would end up in jail for exercising their citizenship rigths- period and end of story. But, they would end up in jail if they are breaking the laws of the Israeli society in the same way as criminals in America usually wind up in jail if they are caught by the police. The reason they are disloyal is not because of a legal discrimination - it's because they want to turn Israel into a new Arab state. Do you consider the Arabs and Muslims of Europe to be "discriminated" against if they are not allowed to establish Arab/Muslim states that will replace the whole European civilization? You are describing the Arabs of Israel as a "victim". Both the minority and the majority have rights and obligations. I believe you think that Israelis/Jews have only obligations and Arabs/Muslims have only rights. Muslims have been nuts for 1400 years and it's time for the Western World to take the threat from Islam seriously. We cannot afford to appease Islam. Appeasement from Chamberlain lead to WW2 because Hitler was emboldened to provoke the whole Europe. Churchill's policy proved to be much better. Every time Islam threaten's us we must pressure them - militarily, politically and economically. We in the West should not apologize for criticizing the tyranny of Islam. Policy of appeasement will just embolden them. Every time the Muslims see that their mass demonstrations deter the Westerners, the Muslims are emboldened. They will desire for more and more and PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al -Qaida and many other terrorist organizations in the Muslim world and yes indeed, millions of Muslims, make no secret of that they want to dominate the world. John, take the threat from Islam seriously.
67. Go ahead
Colt ,   Philly   (10.23.06)
If you want to act as your "own country" then stop accepting billions from the US and run along
68. The real threat Alexander
John ,   USA   (10.23.06)
I don't discount the threat from Islam, I just think that we have been playing into their hands. They have a warped idea of holy jihad. Here's a post I made in another talkback: "It's funny this game that Iran is playing. They make all these really offensive statements about Israel recently. They have been chanting "Death to America" since the revolution. But the experts say if you go to Iran, the Iranian people are warm and friendly toward the west. They like Americans, etc. The IAEA says they are nowhere near having a bomb. So I would say this paranoia about Iran is not warranted. Scott Ritter (remember him? He's the one that called the Iraq war exactly) says that they have no weapons and are completely open about it. Scott's convinced that the US and Israel are on the verge of attacking Iran, but that it's needless. So then why are they behaving as if to say "Attack me, attack me!" I can only conclude that they wish to goad the US and Israel into irrational action. They hope that by being attacked, this will inflame the Muslim world into jihad against the west. And the jihad war for them will eventually lead to the victory of Islam over the unbelievers. Let's face it folks, the US and Israel could turn Iran into a glowing parking lot in a matter of minutes at the push of a button, but the destabilizing effect could be disasterous and unpredictable. Iran doesn't have a military that could stand up to the greatest powers the world has ever known, but the political and social costs make it too dangerous to for us to do so. "
69. Get the facts straight Colt
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.23.06)
The budget of Israel is approximately $ 130 billion US dollars whereas the American "aid" covers approximately $3 billion US dollars. They are used to finance America's arms industry so it's definitely not any "social allowance". Israel wants to end this "social allowance" within 2-3 years. Get the facts straight Colt. USA gave billions and billions of dollars to Europe and Japan after WW2 in the shape of the Marshall Help. USA did not demand a single cent back. Why do you not demand that the sovereignity of these countries should be revoked? USA has loaned billions of dollars from Russia, China, Japan and Europe. Why do you not demand that America's sovereignity should be revoked?
70. I understand your point but I must add...
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.23.06)
...that we cannot take the risk by sitting and waiting and doing nothing. We do not need to obliterate Iran from the face of the earth - I don't want to (are you going to criticize me now?), but as long as this Evil Madman Mahmud Ahmadinejad is in charge, there is no guarantee what might happen. At least there is an internal constraint on aggression in western democracies - the electorate - and that's why there are no wars between USA, Canada, most of Europe, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zeeland. But there was no electorate in Saddam Hussein's Iraq back in the 1970:s, 1980:s and 1990:s nor is there any electorate in Iran. If Iran wants to start a war no matter how stupid it is - they will and can, because there is no electorate in Iran. As long as Ahmadinejad is oppressing, enslaving and raping his own people, his own people cannot stand up against this Iranian Hitler. Even if this situation is tragic, it doesn't mean that we Israelis and the rest of the world will have to sit and wait and hope for the best. When a human being's life is at stake he or she will do whatever it takes to survive and it is this survival mentality that characterizes us Israelis - something that many people in our world do not understand. We are not acting like this because we love this situation - we don't , but we have no other choice. John, you must understand something. This is not a romantic, philosophical debate about semantics and the theories of Witgenstein, this is not an idyllic landscape in France, this is not a luxurious restaurant where you can sit for hours and pick from the wine card. It's not Prague, Paris, Los Angeles or Miami Beach. This is the Middle East. In the Middle East you either kill or get killed and the only guarantee to stay alive is to be superior in military power and strike first before your enemy strikes at you. I don't like it but that's the way it is here.
71. I agree with you....Alexander #70
John ,   USA   (10.24.06)
I can't totally understand your view here across the Atlantic. I don't pretend to think I know better than you. But I did live in Beirut in the 70's. I used to hang out in Palestinian refugee camps if you can believe that. So I know how it is in the Middle East. But back then it did not seem so dangerous. We were evacuated out in the middle of the civil war. I remember how the IAF F4 Phantoms would scream overhead and break the sound barrier, we thought they were dropping bombs. So the Arab position is not a mystery to me either. But the present threat is not what it seems, at least not yet. Bush does not seem to want to attack Iran, Israel seems frustrated to get the west to understand the threat as they see it. Bush doen't have the political juice he needs. The US is decidedly against attacking Iran right now. The Israeli sense of the siege mentatily seems to have taken hold. Israeli confidence in the military was shaken in Lebanon. Olmert seems to percieve the threat as imminent, I don't think it's that bad. Ahmadineajhad is no Hitler, he doesn't have the bomb yet. He doesn't have an army, although he wants everyone to believe he does. But he's not as silly or stupid as he seems on the surface. The genius of Osama and Al Qaida is that with a handful of criminals they successfully created so much instability that it is debateable if the US can ever recover. (The US is on the verge of a political revolution, you can bet we'll have a solid Democrat govenment in 2008.) I think Ahmadineajhad is trying to tap into the Al Qaida plan. He thinks he can goad Israel or the US (or both) to attack him, and the Muslim world will well up with a "tsunami" effect and wipe out the infidels. His plan is dangerous and unpredictable, so we must not play into his hands. I say, be ready to blow him to bits, but only after careful and measured consideration. I think now is not the time. Let's let the diplomatic people play their had, there's still lots of time. No need to warmonger just yet.
72. Wishful thinking
Alexander ,   Israel   (10.25.06)
From an American point of view, it's not so difficult to understand why many Americans - perhaps most Americans- oppose an attack on Iran when the US isn't doing very well in Iraq( because the Americans didn't take into account that it would be wisest to split up Iraq in accordance with the territories dominated by each and every cultural group. If that would have been done, a stable and perpetual democracy could have been easily built up) Hitler didn't have the bomb either - the US made sure of that back in the 1940:s. Ahmadinejad is a new Hitler - a Holocaust denier, a massmurderer and a terrorist that should be wiped of the face of the earth. He has no nukes yet - true - and we Israelis will make sure that he will never get such toys either. There is no reason for this Iranian Hitler to invest money, time, effort and energy in nuclear energy when Iran is already self-sufficient in energy - the energy that paralyzes the minds of American politicians, the lagoon of filth - the black gold... He will hardly use this nuclear energy to heat up his grandmother's house or making a cup of coffee. What do you use nuclear energy for when your energy needs are already fulfilled and are already more benefitial than a nuclear energy alternative? Why is a "smart" man wasting money on something that is not benefitial from an energy point of view? That ain't smart. The answer is John: the bomb. He wants the bomb, and he himself is a ticking bomb. Both Ahmadinejad and his toys must be removed from the face of the earth. Islam want's to destroy the western world and if Islam would have had this strenght, they would have done that a long time ago. What's stopping Islam is the Western World's superiority in economic, political, military, scientific and technological strength and power. No strength and no power means no West. An existing strenght and power means an existing West. The threat from Islam no matter how intimidating it may be - must be removed. Islam can threaten the West - true - but the West can threaten Islam as well. We should use our strength and power now. Oh, one more thing that I forgot to answer you about in the previous articles: the Judeo-Christian bond layed the foundation for the free society of the US as the early US Presidents were inspired by the yearning after freedom of the ancient Hebrew nation - namely us. If this Judeo-Christian bond is considered to be "fanatism" it has to mean that freedom and democracy and America stand for "fanatism". As an American patriot, you wouldn't like to portray the very foundation of your nation as "fanatical" would you?
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