Jews have always lived in Israel and when the Jews in exile came back the vast majority of the land was deserted. Stop reading Hamass propaganda idiot!

the land never actually belonged to the arabs in the land. If you really did read about Zionism you would know that most of the land belonged to absentee landlords of the Ottoman empire. Enter Rothschild who, with his wealth had purchased many plots of land from the Ottomans. the people on the lands were essentially surfs. They had NO LEGAL claim to the land in terms of ownership. The early Zionists were conflicted as whether to let the local people continue to work on the land or not. You have to keep in mind that the early zionists were keen to work the land themselves and employing non-zionists was a bit of a contradiction. In NO WAY am I saying that it was correct/morally right but don't make it seem like the Arabs were owners, in the legal sense of the word. Other land expansions had to due with defensive wars, started by the Arabs. It is debatable whether or not it was right for Israel to add this land but understand the need for security and borders. If we try to understand how to move forward instead of blaming history etc, maybe things can get better....

I am a Muslim and I sort of agree on part of what you said.. but you have over simplified everything into the fact that Muslims have come to see everything as a symbol.. you are ignoring the fact that there are many other reasons that have caused this gap between Muslims and the OTHER side.. and one important fact is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.. which I see as the base of those problems.. Israeli settling had started during a very sensitive phase of Arab and Muslim lives.. the concept of Israel had started at a time when Arabs and Muslims were starting to cling to the concept of Arab nationalism and Arab unity.. the rise of Israel at this period was the beginning of an agressive conflict between us.. the generation that had lived during the period of WW2 and later did actually start to turn everything into symbols because I think they lived in a time when Arabs were struggling for independence.. you have also diminshed the fact that the endless Western attacks on Muslims have caused not just a gap but hatered towards the West.. Western media also did a very good job in mutating the picture of Muslims.. before 9/11 Muslims were regarded by the West as nothing but some ignorant, vulgar group of people living in a desert.. after 9/11 terrorists was added to this.. I know that we hold part of the blame on this because we were unable to present the true picture of Islam and Muslims.. but the responsibilty is on both sides and not only on Muslims..

Maybe people hate you not because of what you are but because of what you do...

i'm curious as to what you mean when you talk about "endless Western attacks on Muslims", specifically before 9/11. also, the problem of violent jihad in the region can, arguably (though i disagree), be attributed to the israeli-palestinian conflict. but what about the violent jihad across the globe (africa, india, chechnya, thailand, philippines, to name a few)? and these go back decades, unrelated to any "perception" issues. arabs have it good here in israel, especially the christians. but the main reason they are leaving in droves is because of the muslim aggression toward them (completely unrelated to the palestinian-israeli conflict). this only reinforces the negative perceptions as being true, meaning that islam's problems are at the core of everything. sure, both sides share blame, but each side must accept responsibility for their actions and not blame others for their faults. that would be a good place to start.

You forgot the part about Pink Ponies and rainbows. Didn'tcha?

don't blame the western media, reuters, bbc, cnn are always on your side, however the world also seen the true pictures from munich, entebee, ramallah, bali, new york, washington, falujah, moscow, beslan... if islam is just, why non of your peace loving islamic states ever complaint to un when israel civilians were murdered by arabstinian/islamostinian terrorists? you are right on one thing though, the responsibility is indeed on both sides and not only on muslims. when a mad dog is running around attacking people we can't blame the mad dog, because that's what a mad dog does, too bad rest of the world don't dare or don't want to stop the mad dog, they tend to believe when there are jews to finish the mad dog will leave them alone, they are dreamers/cowards, shame on them

there is plenty of room to maneuver

For your information, Torah is only the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, i.e. the original bible (meaning 'the book'). Anyhow, putting one next to the other, what do you get. The Bible is set in the 3rd person past tense, and reads as a collection of stories, legends, and parables. The Koran is set in the 2nd person imperative, and essentially it is a list of orders. They are like ying and yang. And as for Moslems 'protecting' and 'respecting' Jews, give yourself a big round of applause. The Jews have just about all gone.

"It's time to start building bridges rather than walls." "Yes, I have read about the origins of Zionism and how that already put the Palestinians on alert. They heard about the people wanting to come and establish a country for the Jews on THEIR land. It's not a good beginning is it? " First of all, don't condescend us, you who live in Canada, all stolen land. When the modern Zionist movement took off in the 19th century, there was no such thing as a 'Palestinian', or Arab-controlled land in the region, and there were no British imperialists either as yet. Until you understand that the land is for the Jewish people, you will always bombard us with your vitreol and fallacies at every turn. There is no moral lesson to be gleaned from your diatribe, given your shortage of facts.

"Maybe people hate you not because of what you are but because of what you do... " Very philosophical. Did that pearl of wisdom suddenly enter your otherwise empty brain, or did it come after years of meditation with the help of psychotropic substances?

The UN report states that ".. the war in Afghanistan .." is one of the 3 causes for the growing gap between West and Muslims. The civilized Muslims SHOULD know that it was Al-Qaida, centered in Taliban Afghanistan - that attacked America on 9/11. Civilized Muslims should know that this menace of Al-Qaida and Taliban HAS to be destroyed. And THAT is precisely what America and Allies are doing in Afghanistan : to destroy the Al-Qaida and the Taliban. So, the civilized Muslims should NOT stand by the Al-Qaida and the Taliban. Civilized Muslims SHOULD stand by America & Allies in the fight against Al-Qaida and Taliban. It is ONLY the uncivilized Muslims who criticize America and Allies for fighting against Al-Qaida and Taliban. So, THOSE Muslims who feel that there is a gap between Western society and Muslim society - THOSE Muslims are considered to be uncivilized Muslims.

if Hitler have tried to exterminate Jews? Remember that Just like the ones fleed Spain, many Jews from Balkans refugeed in Muslim lands.

what do you get by putting Torah and Quran side by side and read? You very well know by what I meant but here it is you will get that same God who spoke to Moses and Jesus spoke to humans by Quran as well. Get beyond the grammatical issues, crack that shell and see the meat of it. You will see that Torah and Quran and brothers coming from the same line. By the way I am in no way trying to tell you join this or leave that. Everyones religion is to themselves and that is to be respected. We stand to gain much more when we see we are brothers, part of the same Abrahamic family and get beyond the enimosity.

you're curious!! am I bringing up something new?! Arab countries were conquered by European countries after the Ottoman Empire .. France had left Algeria with about a million martyrs!! or do those not count?? Russians were attacking the Afghans and the Chechens.. Iraq was before 9/11 under siege and Iraqis were suffering.. Palestinians were dispossessed from not only their land but even their identity .. all this was BEFORE 9/11 Arabs in Israel are second class citizens.. they are used by Israel as shields on its borders to prevent missile attacks on Jews.. what Arab agression there is against them which is not related to the Pal/Israeli conflict? Islam did not ask us to establish a state on someone else's remenants!! so, I don't see how Islam is the core of this problem..

and the jews with their jew ego- never admit this- they heckle anyone who critisizes them- and no one hates the anti- zionists jews- like Neteru --- but we hate the murdering, land stealing,, whining, suing, mooching- jew-

you have no right whatsoever to categorise Muslims into "civilised" and "non-civilised" according to your beliefs!! I never heard that civilisation means cheering for whatever the US does to us!!! Taliban was in the first place created by the USSR and supported by the US!! Islam DID NOT create fanatics like Bin Laden and his followers!! America did NOT fight Taliban only .. it fought innocent Afaghani Children.. it fought Afghani people as a whole.. in Iraq America did not fight as a result of 9/11 and President Bush himself said so.. the war on Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11.. Iraqi lands and establishments are now being massively sold to Jews.. check it out in Iraqi press... and there IS a gap between Muslim societies and the West.. and I think your post proves that this gap does in fact exist and is growing rapidly..

You write :"Taliban was .. created by the USSR and supported by US". Dear Lynne, regarding the Taliban - your history education is deficient. That's why your above statement is wrong - to say the least. You write :"Islam DID NOT create .. Bin Laden ..". You ARE right. Islam did NOT create Osama Bin Laden. But your statement will be challenged by Osama Bin Laden. Osama will not agree with your statement. Why not? Osama Bin Laden will say that he is a good practitioner of Islam. Osama will say : "whenever we commit a violent act we shout 'Allah is Great' ". Lynne, I understand that Osama is giving, by his violent activities, a BAD name to Islam. My goal with #73 is that normal Muslims SHOULD distance themselves from the violent activities of Osama and Al-Qaida - by speaking out against the violent activities of Osama and Al-Qaida. BY speaking out against the violent activities of Osama and Al-Qaida - the Muslim WILL proof to the civilized world that he is against their (Osama's and Al-Qaida's) violent activities. BY speaking out against the violent activities of Osama and Al-Qaida - the Muslim WILL proof to the civilized world that he is a civilized person. Hope everything is well with you.

because of the "aggression" of the past. everyone has a grievance with everyone else. why not also all other nations who are the victims of islamic terrorism. but what is the cause of jihad in east timor, or sudan where muslims are killing muslims (was that because of african "aggression" against arabs, too?), or india, or taliban imposition in afghanistan, or chechnya (against "aggression" from schoolchildren?), or nigeria, the philippines, or thailand (again, "aggression" against schoolchildren?), or china, or against the copts in egypt, or sunni-shia in iraq? revenge for what? you say: "Islam did not ask us to establish a state on someone else's remenants!!" oh really? that's exactly what islam did when is violently coloniolized the christian world. i guess it is only ok if mohammed does it? if you really believe that arabs are "shields" you lost any credibility you might have had. did israel ensure that arab populations flourish in the north generations before to anticipate rockets thet were to be created? absurd... my wife is an israeli arab - she, as an arab, has MORE rights and privileges than most jews. she had to do no army service, subsidized college by zionist donation money (not governent subsidy or award), beneficiary of huge jewish charity support/help, and so on. a simple truth here: you love and respect jews, they will love you back and treat you well. but, since you seem like a typical closed-minded propogandist, go ahead and dismiss this as a bunch of lies. you're free to practice self-deception and protect your reasons to mindlessly hate. after all, YOU yourself have been so victimized and oppressed that you deserve to hate. enjoy!

Taliban was supported by the US when they were fighting the Russians under the name of "Mujjahidin" .. that was during the period of the Cold War.. the US was supporting the Soviet Union's enemies during this period.. the point is, Maansingh that most of us are aginst both, the US and fanatics like Bin Laden.. I defend neither one of them .. both are killing innocent people.. you want Muslims to support the US killing them under the cover of "fighting terrorism"?? if we speak out against Bin Laden we will be considered as supporters of the the US wars and if we speak out against the US we will be considered supporters of Bin Laden!! who will solve this dilemma??

I was hoping you would not turn this dicussion into a personal feud with me.. stating opinions you don't like to hear does not make me "a typical closed-minded propogandist".. you actually reveal you "closed-mindedness" in your attemt to insult me because I don't agree with you!! the Western attacks did not finish after WW2 they had actually just started.. Western countries have strongly supported Israel's establishment in the ME..over 4million Palestinian refugees were IGNORED by the International community as a whole.. I am not defending what Taliban and such organisations do.. I am very strict in my opinions regarding those terror attacks but what I'm saying is that those the gap between the West and ME is not due to the accummulation many political circumstances .. you could not expect a gap between France and Germany because they are practically the smae group of people and they were able after WW2 to become civilised and developed countries.. the examples you have brought up are internal conflicts in non-developed countries..Americans have had their share of long years of conflicts until they were able to achieve stability.. in Europe during the Protestant reformations Christians were killing one another.. does this mean that there is a problem in the American people? or that Christianity teaches agression? not at all, but in most cases internal conflicts take place at a stage were there is a need for reformation and development.. I am surprised that you say "Islam violently colonalised the Christian World" .. this is laughable.. for many reasons.. - if we start by comparing the Crusades to the Muslim Empire.. well.. a camparison would be difficult if not impossible to attemt.. throughout history Muslims have revealed to be on the highest levels of nobility in the treatment of the defeated.. NOBODY was forced to convert.. the defeated had their full rights.. they did not cause destruction, they actually built the cities they captured and when they left they did not damage what they constructed ex. Andalusia, Granada .. upto this day the World witnesses the nobility of Muslims in those cties.. they did not kick the original citizens or opress them in order to cause them to flee.. - when Muslims sought to build an Empire the World was in first place divided into Empires.. so creating an Empire at those times was not something illegitimate as it is today.. if Muslims did not fight at that time they would have perished under the rule of another Empire that existed like the Roman or Persian... Prophet Mohhamad(PBUH) was the first to establish war ethics.. ""Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children, the aged or women. Do not cut palm trees or fruitful trees. Do not not slay a sheep, a cow, or a camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in monasteries; leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for." (Al- Tabari, volume3, p.213)" as for Israeli Arabs.. I am not an expert regarding the Israeli society but I will give you one very small piece of proof on disrimantion against Arab Israelis.. this was a survey published on Haaretz.. 22/3/2006 Poll: 68% of Jews would refuse to live in same building as an Arab if Arab Israelis just "happen to be living" in the North why don't they have shelters in there villages knowing that Israeli Jews have "fully equipped" shelters!! and knowing that the most important weapon factories and military intelligence posts are closer to the Arab Northern communities?!! they could not even flee to the South because they are unwelcomed (if allowed)..

it is hard to carry ona discussion when basic facts are distorted. 4 million palestinian refugees - extreme exaggeration. french and german practically the same group of people - you're the only one to say or believe that. internal conflicts of other countries trying to achieve their own stability- then why mujahideen and financial support from all over the globe? christians killing each other - according to christian beliefs, those who did were apostates (as opposed to the religion endorsing and encouraging it. why do you think that even the most fundamental christian sects now oppose killing and territorial rights on any theological grounds?) the muslim colonialization - again, the takeover of the christian world was bloody with both murder and rape. that's a fact. sure the muslims didn't force people to convert like we see today, but the christian government, leadership, and armies were decimated as they tried to defend against the islamic invaders. which is why the crusades came about: to try to get back what was, for hundreds of years, their dominion. of course there was rape and murder then but, again, that's history is not an opinion or preference, but fact. the defeated had their rights as dhimmi, but not as before. and say what you want about israeli arabs and discrimination - i've not seen it hardly at all. now when we, as arab christians, go to muslim areas, now there's discrimination. and not to mention muslim's attitudes toward jews. in which muslim city allows (not prefers or wants) a single jew to live anywhere? absolute intolerance, absolute hate. the shelters in the north are required for ALL new buildings adn houses. if you read haaretz at all you will know that arabs refuse to build their houses with the shelters AND retro-fit the old ones because of the cost abd trouble. israel does not force this law because of the widespread refusal of the arab community to comply. the only charges of discrimination during the war with lebanon was from outside israel, those who don't know. and israel's weapon factories are in the north, but not near any civilian centers. the north is FULL of jews, you know. and no one understands why muslims shoot rockets onto arab towns and cities? arabs fleed south, some of my wife's family did. again you listen to propoganda. SORRY for attacking you but you sounded like someone whose mind selectively picks predetermined info, not someone interested in the facts. israel does a lot wrong, but it is not the evil that muslims make it out to be. not even close. and i would take the way israel treats us non-jews over the way muslims treat non-muslims ANYDAY. i've done both and there is NO comparison.

You write :"Taliban was supported by the US ..". Lynne, you are wrong. The Taliban originated in 1993. The Sovjets withdrew from Afghanistan in February 1989. The Cold War ended in 1990. So, the Taliban did NOT fight the Sovjets. You write :"Who will solve this dilemma?" It is the DUTY of the Government of each Country to protect its OWN citizens. For that - they have at their disposal the Army and the Police force. Violence is the SOLE monopoly of the Government. When violence is used by others, i.e. criminals and armed gangs, - they ARE punishable. So, whether the armed gangs consists of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists or Hindus - they are ALL punishable. BTW armed gangs ARE a menace to any society in the world. So, they HAVE to be eliminated as much as possible. The lesser we have - the SAVER the world will be. Hope everything is well with you.