Rafi - this is by far one of the best viewpoints that I have'heard' - couldn't agree more!!!

You wrote that anybody born to a Jewish mother is Jewish . I know a woman , converted , had a daughter who had also one . Those were all born to a Jewish mother , and Jewish ?. Maybe by Halacha , but nothing in their daily life shows a little bit of "Jiddishkeit" . They know they are of Jewish descent , have some Jewish blood , that's all . I have not to judge , but for me they are not . The best way to show your Jewish identity , is to live here , in Israel , even with all the problems we are confronted to . For the rest i agree

Dear R. Brackman - As a Reform Jew (at this time of my life) from NYC - I agree with you, it is Torah and Halachah that makes one a Jew BUT it seems there are fewer and fewer of us that are born Jewish, Ruth was not born a Jews yet as I recall the words, "Wherever you go I shall go", etc. I also find many converts are more aware of Halachah than those born of Jewish mothers -- pls. we Jews don't proselytize the way other religions do, don't make our tribe so small that we cannot be Jews anywhere in this ever-changing world. Have faith that even Reform Jews can and do have Orthodox chilcren.

They have commensed again to use faulty logic to strike fear , mistrust and division for the protection of their monopoly. What is needed now is for courageous state officials TO TAKE UP THE CAUSE and to take ACTION for " REAL JEWS " and JUDAIC PARITY.

The Rabbi's spin incorrect because it is based on incorrect facts. The correct spin is: excluding converts actually brings Israeli law more into line with Hitler's laws, not less. And the correct facts are: The Israeli law of return was never based on religious law, it is based on Nazi Nuremberg (Nürnberg) Laws as to who is a Jew. In fact the Nazi laws were copied verbatum into Israeli law. Whoever Hitler would have thought to be a Jew is admitted into Israel under the Law of return. For example: if only your paternal grandfather was a Jew, you qualify. Well, the law was copied almost verbatum. The one exception has been converts to Judaism. Hitler regarded Jewish converts to 'Christianity' as full Jews, and he regarded German converts to Judaism as full Germans (once they recanted their conversion). So Israeli law has diverged from Hitler's law on that one point, but now it has been corrected. The bottom line is: born Jews don't like converts for the same reason Hitler tolerated them - their first national loyalty is still to the nation they were born into.

Since my father was born and died a Jew, but my mother was Christian, it sounds like can never be a "real" Jew, regardless of what's in my heart. I know this, though: I'd make one hell of an Israeli.

THE NESHAMAH !!!!!!!!

In the story of Baalam and Baalak, Jacob's tents could not be cursed because there was no magic in them. It is safe to say that had there been magic in them, Jacob's tents could have been cursed. Everyone knows Moses was a great man and was allowed by G-d to be a go-between in communicating the words of Torah. Seems the Rabbis (Rashi included) think they can dissect word, from Torah or use Geamatry and similar root words to better communicate something that is not evident in context of the Pashoot. Did they think their was a shortage of words or that Mosses failed to say what he meant? They can speak for G-d better than Mosses? They make the binding of Isaac sound like a crazed father and have all kinds of warped explanations that only give them power to continue their vanity and disgrace of followers who don't know the Pashoot. It is sad to see that even a "Torah Jew" Hassidim doesn't even know yet comprehend historical conversion or the stories of Torah as they were written (only Rashi says this and that). It reminds me of Gan Eden when Eve didn't understand the words of the entire paragraph but only that you can eat from all the trees of the garden. Enough of the spells and items that give protection, such as Talisman. Only G-d gives it. The Prophets were clear that the Temple had been corrupted with Magic *San Hedrin and Kohens* and warned that if the Jews did not stop the Temple and the land would be lost. Guess what happened. Jews everywhere should stop allowing men who are not mentioned in Torah to get Torah for them. As Torah states it is between you and G-d. Suggest reading the Pashoot and understanding the context, characters, time frames, and audiences. Realize who is big and who is small-Mosses is the final say not the Rabbis. Mosses delivered one book in one afternoon and said don't add or take away from these words. Figure it out. You shall not add a word or take away a word of Torah. Adding stories and changing meaning by "adding" explanations not in keeping with the Pashoot is "Adding". They have walls of liabraries and entire series of Magic Kabbalah. They have added an entire cerimony including rejection of people seeking to convert (driven away three times). Who gave Rabbis the athourity to reject on G-d's behalf? Especially when you consider the prophecy that Israel would go into disporah and after suffering in the abyss they cry out to G-d. Here they find a Rabbi sending them back to the abyss? Three times before they can begin learning what the Rabbis teach which isn't Torah but a Kabbalistic pareyer book. Even then they might not be accepted. What happened to "give G-d an orginal prayer"? Rabbis will claim that only some know how to pray. What's original about a formula for prayer? Only magic follows formulas. Learn what magic is so that you can remove it from the tents of Jacob. Israel received Torah; Judah inherited it as well as the other 11 tribes. The Hebrews were converts for just leaving Egypt. Sarah just followed. Abraham’s slaves were along for the ride too. No Mikvahs no bet din, no BS bureaucracy, no magic candles, boxes, or decorations. Just a desire to follow the G-d of Israel and his followers. As far as Matrinal lineage, it is not supported in Torah. Lavan's daughter was a pagen and a theif yet her children are the foundation of a people. It was the paternal lines, such as the line of David, that were followed. We don't even know the name of most of the wives and as tradition, it is the man's name that is the making of a tribe, such as Judah or Dan. Too many excuse for there to be truth in the representations of Rabbis on who is Israel and who is a Jew. Be strong again Israel. One G-d one Love.

is the jew whose mother is a jew // is this law from god .. i do not think that ... i think this law was after jessus was born from a mother who is from bni israil but without a father as he is from the saul of god ,, so the christians said he is the son of god ... and jessus was the first one in christinaty the new religion at that time .. jews at that time did not believe in the new religion and they did not believe his miracle that he was from god soul or as the cristian said he was the son of god .. so they said some bad idea about sitna mariam .. and they said the mother was not a jew and her son is so ..just i think that

Now THAT is definitely the way it should be. And are people so ignorant of history to not know that this country was built and fought for primarily by secular Jews? The youth movements of Hashomer Hatzair, Habonim, Dror, the Bund, all of them secular zionist movements, are the reasons we HAVE a country. Go back and take a look at the population figures pre-1947 and you will find that this country then was 95% secular.

You're a very good example of why there are Jews who are willing to accept patrilineal descent as a determinant of a person's Judaism. And as to your contention that you'd "make one hell of an Israeli," I'd say "Damn right you would." In fact, I'm willing to bet that most Israelis would take somebody like you over a bunch of religious scholars who spend their time debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, while the real Israelis are out there risking their lives so those people don't have to.

The evolution of the terms Jew, Jewish, and Judaism are due to historical circumstances. As far as I recall, there is no mention of these terms with reference to how they are used today. We are B'nai Yisroel, who received the Oral and Written Law and we are comitted to it as the constitution of our people. I do not know what to tell people who deny its relevance to our modern era. i have nothing to say tol people who deny their identity as a member of B'nai Yisroel. I can say that the history of our people should be learned with more profundity than just memorization of dates, events, and characters. Many concepts, philosophical and otherwise, can be learned and integrated with day-to-day living. Our Torah, the constitution of B'nai Yisroel has been watered down by certain movements in the name of progress and modernity. No doubt, it has served no purpose since people's identities have also been watered down. The idealogy of B'nai Yisroel has been diffused and, for many, very little remains except an ethnic association. Remember, that when we begin to deny our identity, the nations of the world help to remind us by persecutions,Hamans, Hitlers, and even by united nations' one-sided resolutions. Iran is preparing to remind us. Modern Assyria, Syria, is reminding us. There is no hiding and no place to hide for inevitably whatever will happen is in our hands. When we refuse to take the responsility for our fate, G-d is blamed. The answer is to take responsibility and observe and learn the constitution, the unabridged version, the unwatered-down version and make it part of our lives.

If you're a convert or ger sedek, I really don't see why the rav's plan is a problem. He is simply saying that if your mother is not Jewish according to the traditional halacha then the Israeli rabbanut decides what you need to do to qualifiy under the law of the (religious) right of return to Israel. This is in keeping with the centuries old historic practice of religious aliyah to Israel, where olim accepted the conditions of the rishonim lezion (the first ones to return). The Rav representes teh Rishonim LeZion in his role. Secondly, the traditional jewish religion, is the historical common denominator among everyone who is Jewish today and therefore should be encouraged in the only Jewish state. It seems reasonabl to expect converts to stretghen traditional judaism rather than weaken it. Look at the Bnei Menashe who recently made aliyah, approved and assisted by the Israeli Rabbanut. Rav Amar is not saying that converts cannot immigrate to Israel under the right of return but that they should meet the Israeli rabbanut's requirements. Alternatively they can immigrate under the civil (rather religious) immigration requirements. And to the best of my knowledge almost anyone can qualify for this except perhaps to a lesser extent arabs, muslims and unskilled economic immigrants from poor countries ....

Living in Jerusalem , i suppose you speak Hebrew . Why do you write B'nai Yisroel , instead of Bne Israel ? Is this a reminder of your East European Shtetl from the 18th century ? I'm sure a secular Jew , living in Israel [ not Yisroel ] is better as than all the charidi abroad . You can be Jewish without believing . How can you still believe after the Shoa ? Do not talk about sins comitted , i can not accept this .

If someone converts in an Orthodox way than he is Jewish. What Rabbi Amar proposes is a very discriminating act. It is sad but actually what is he saying is that even if you are a 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 Jew who does not observe any Jewish tradition, eats pork, wears swastikas - you are more entiteled to make an 'aliyah' than someone who had to undergo the long and demanding process of an orthodox conversion. I find it very discriminating. Many of the immigrants with either some Jewish grandfather/grandmother do not care at all about being Jewish - and they would be according to Rabbi Amar entiteled the priviledge of making 'aliyah' while the righteous converts who had given all their heart and soul into the conversion process and have joined the Jewish people from their own idealism would thus be discriminated. Some talkbacks mention Hitler's racist laws. If we look closely at Rabbi Amar's proposal it does sound racist also. It is terrible that a someone calling himself a rabbi can come up with such a nonsense.

My Israel was founded and built and developed and defended by Jews. Most not only did NOT live by Torah - but actually rejected Torah. Very few were relgious. My Israel is a growing, thriving and beautiful country whose infrastructure began 6 decades before Hitler and the Nazis. The problem with Amar's definition of "who is a Jew" is that it only looks as far as a synagogue. It only delves as far as an active minyan of religious men. The Jewish people are so much more, go so much further and are held together with so much more in common. Amra needs both a reality check and a better Jewish education.

Has been drastically changed from the very beginning. What G-ds hand wrote in stone is disregarded or, 'dismissed by us, who stand wrongfully in rebellion. But then, even with Moses, we found ourselves idol worshipping ( the golden calf) and inventing divorce. After the fall of Israel to Rome, Judaism was changed. No animal blood sacrifices, prayer was then substituted. No more Levite priests, ( totally contrary to our Higher directives that they should remain in their posts forever) we have Rabbis instead. We wondered in the wildnerness due to our disbelief.. We still wonder. A Jew without the faith of the G-d of Israel or the Commandments, is a gentile. What makes us Jews is the Torah and Israel. We've lived what has been prophecied. It matters not whether or not a Jew is religious- that is to his persecutors. We are sentenced to death by gentiles who justify our deaths as something holy to their gods of destruction. Think about it, You're either for or against Israel, not by birth alone but by belief. I wonder if the righteous gentiles who protected Jews from harm are more 'Jewish ' than some who are born into the tribes- and then forget about their Jewishness? Assimilation does not guarantee security. We are to be a seperate and peculiar people. Interesting word, peculiar, has an old meaning of possession and love. Perhaps all people will have to decide which side they're on when the Islamocides appear en masse? Jew or non Jew, it will be them or us. Which side will we choose? Will it matter to the dead? Certainly it will matter to those of us who remain. Shalom

What people seem to forget but perhaps it is "lost" in history is that the Jews who the first secular israelis found in the land of israel were mostly torah observant, what you might call charedi today whose lineage dates back to the defeat of the crusaders in the 12-13th century. It is these observant jews here and in the diaspora who kept the dream of a return to the land of israel alive for future generations. Without them there will be no state of israel (or a jewish people for that matter) today, since no one would have kept the memory alive. Or forged initial "good relations" with the muslims which made the earlier aliyah to what was then part of the ottoman empire possible. Kvod harav amar is simply continuing in the tradition of those jews who kept jews alive even when there was no state or army. I guess it is lost in history...

good to have a sense of your pecularity // but still it is policy not religouse // so it is not the judism sure iam not a jew .. but i like to be secure and safe as a humanbeing .. but still iam proud of my religion THE ISLAM ... and i like if you are proud of your religion ;; and aske the security and safetness as a human being

That's also what i'm saying , a little bit different : mostly by non religious .....There were probably also some religious

No way we're giving away our Jerusalem to the fanatics!!

Dear Rabbi Rackman What would Ruth have thought had she been told that unlike Naomi she could not come to Israel as a Jew bacuase the "Law of Return" treated converts as non-Jews. We are fortunate that Boaz was the Chief Rabbi at the time and not Rabbi Amar who has probably trangressed the prohibition against opressing the convert..

Rabbi Brackman's argument here seems sound to me. Clearly his comment about intermarriage was meant as tongue in cheek the posters here have not contradicted the main thesis of his argument. The only problem is that the rabbinate in Israel has lost credibility due to scandals and other shenanigans.

From my perspective, Yael, you stand correct. Israel was established by secular Jews. Though the details are not the clearest, Israel was hijacked and Shang-hai 'd not long after the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox arrived. Obviously, deals were made and wheels were greased in the earlier days. It's time to make things right !