Provided that they abide by the norms of Jewish worship and respect the customs that have been observed for thousands of years.

How sad that a movement that considers itself so open and tolerant can't find it fit to pray with other Jews as opposed to alongside them. Most Conservative Temples can't even muster up a weekday minyan, yet the movement thinks it can energize its membership through headline-catching non-events. A very shallow victory indeed.

Kyle, have read many of your comments on this site and like your outlook. What are you doing in Southpark? Would like to talk more. can you IM me at mmw303@yahoo.com?

I know you call me a "Haredi basher" and I know you disagree with almost all I say, but a good argument is the spice of life. "Provided". No Kyle, no conditions, because the Kotel belongs to every Jew of every generation, no matter how he wishes to conduct his Jewishness. "Thousands of years". There is a law of nature that any entity, from the lowest form to the highest, if it does not adjust itself to the changes surrounding it, to the dynamic way in which nature behaves, then it will self destruct. This is the reason that species and types and races have become extinct. Time does not stand still and those participating in the wonderful adventure called nature must adapt or fall by the wayside. This law is axiomatic. Besides, the Haredim or the orthodox do not have a monopoly over the way in which all Jews pray or conduct their daily lives. Draw your own conclusions.

Every one is allowed to pray at the Kotel Ma'aravi . But everyone don't want to do it on the Orthodox way , and by their rules . I am not favorable tho the reformed and others , but i will defend their right to practise religion as they think . You see that's freedom , not coercision .

Haredi don't get being nice. You forgot what happened last November? They were behaving worse than Arabs now. They will only understand it, if there's tons of people, lots of police, water pipes to hose them down...

There were no Reformed and Conservative when the Temple (of which the Kotel is part) was built. There were, at one time, Hellenizers who thought it was spiritually uplifting to sacrifice a pig and put up statues to the popular and buff gods of beauty and fitness, in order to express their "new, improved Jewishness" should we allow that too? As I recall there is a holiday in the calendar that celebrates the removal of the swine-and-fitness-worshippers from the Temple. You seculars should observe Hanukkah as your Tisha B'Av.

FYI there was no such thing as orthodox, chasid, or ultra-orthodox at the time of the last Temple, either; simply Jews. As for new and improved Jewishness, Zionism has already fabricated it in the name of Medinat Yisrael. They use an Hellenic symbol (Magan David is NOT a Jewish symbol, but one imposed by Hellenists.) and allow quasi-Jews to settle in the name of demographics. Very Jewish, that.

Yeah I think thousands of years ago they didn't care about the wall as much as the temple.

i.e., Conservative Judaism, wants to pray at the Wall, why not do it the old-fashioned way, with a mechitzah and be tolerant of Orthodox Jews? They are after all there to be with HaShem, not with those of the opposite gender. I mean, do the men and women get some kind of kick out of being mixed together? Is it really a bad thing to be separate at the only the Wall, especially if it makes fellow Orthodox Jews comfortable? They can do what they want in their synagogues. Surely a Conservative Jew can't feel uncomfortable in a single gender crowd, can he or she? So, the whole point of their actions is to strike out at those Jews that they don't like, Orthodox Jews, who show them what devout Judaism is really like. It makes fools out of those Conservative Jews who come to pray, if you call it praying, only on the High Holidays and for bar and bat mitzvahs. I mean the synagogue is not really even an important part of the lives of most of them, but it's highly important to Orthodox Jews, especially Orthodox men who daven three times a day "religously", preferably with a minyan of men. The Conservative Jews (read secular Jews) really just want to open another front on their war with the Orthodox Jews (read religious Jews).

Conservative and Reform have always been allowed to pray at the Kotel. Women could pray in the women's section, men could pray in the men. Conservative and Reform have not been allowed to impose their lower standards on the Orthodox by having men and women pray together. The female tourists dressed as if they are going to the beach have not been allowed to destroy the dignity of the men's section. Reform have not been allowed to bring their musical instruments and choirs to hold their pseudo-Xtian services. Nor have they been allowed to begin having pork chop barbecues, rock bands, dancing and all the other degradations they will eventually try to bring to the Kotel as they have done in their own sects.

I don't see what is so important to the so called conservative and reform people about praying together. Is is that the guys want to check out some skirt while they ask God for forgiveness and ask God for goodness knows what? And as for the chicks, is it that they secretly have penis envy and have bought into the "do what the guys do" baloney? Hey people, males and females are different and they have different roles in life. Is that so hard to understand? Act according to your own roles and you will be happier people.

People can disaree with each other and still get along well. People with disagreements have well gotten on, for thousands of years. Good cooperation amidst differing opinion can build respect. It's nice to be nice !

why not. if homosexual conservative rabbis can, why not jews for jesus?

How sad that the utra-orthodox are so bigoted they won't let others pray at the wall they own without insisting others follow their rule. Before the temple fell, people walked along this wall in mixed company all the time. It was only up ON the mountain top that such rigid rules were required. So, the ultra-orthodox today require that all people live up to laws that are even more strict than those given to Moses by God.

Those who attempt to draw parallels with the Beit ha-Miqdash should study the Beit ha-Miqdash and learn just what was where and who was permitted where. Weren't even goyim, as well as women, permitted as far as the soreg? In Beit ha-Miqdash ha-Sheini are you familiar with the Khatzeir Nashim? In Beit ha-Miqdash ha-Sheini, Jewish women could proceed not only INSIDE the "Kotel," they could proceed beyond the soreg and into the Khatzeir Nashim. The gender separation was differentiated by the Khatzeir Yisraeil. In Beit ha-Miqdash ha-Rishon, women, even then, were permitted inside the "Kotel." The gender separation was differentiated by the Azarah ha-G'dolah. To argue that rules inside the soreg or some court of the Beit ha-Miqdash be applied outside of the Kotel is to turn the Beit ha-Miqdash inside out; a perversion and a heresy. As I understand it, the more informed argument is to make this area adjacent to the Kotel into a Beit ha-K'nesset, not a model of an inside-out Beit ha-Miqdash. Thus, the conflict: Orthodox Beit ha-K'nesset or Conservative Temple-Church with homosexual and women rabbis, etc. Whoever cannot understand Orthodox Jews finding the latter repugnant and blasphemous is intellectually challenged. Meanwhile, while none of you were paying attention outside your tendencies toward fratricide, there is a section of the wall, on the far (east) side, that is far older and dates back to the Beit ha-Miqdash of Z'ru-Bavel or, perhaps, even the Beit ha-Miqdash of Shlomoh. You can find this section immediately north of what archeologists call "the Seam." And while you weren't paying attention Eisau has located another of their cemeteries there - since I made aliyah in 1985. Why have you not similarly regarded this older section? If you valued the inside as much as the outside, then why have you sat comfortably in your homes doing nothing when Eisau bulldozed away the remnants of the Beit ha-Miqdash ha-Rishon - of Shlomoh ha-Melekh? (Photos, taken from the Biblical Archeology Review magazine, are in my website.) Why have you sat comfortably in your homes doing nothing when Eisau rioted at repairs to the Jewish Gate? Do you not know that, by their protests, Eisau is attempting to claim that as his? With all of these things, Hellenist Jews have to impose homosexual and women rabbis on us? Is that your priority? Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

is an achievement of all Jews. I ignore the few Jews who side with our enemies.

for both Jews AND goyim were allowed to pray in the temple too. But Jews and goyim and secular conservative-reform Jews must understand that the Kotel is a Holy place and must be treated with utmost respect for G-d. In the temple there was an Ezrat Nashim, a Women's section, and this is how it must continue. Those who want mixed seating can build their own "kotel" somewhere else.

"The Conservative Movement called the agreement "a victory for pluralistic Judaism in Israel and a move towards total equality among Jewish movements in Israel." " I'm all for pluralism! But, within a context. Vegetable soup is great, but it is held together within a bowl. Once it is free to flow wherever it wants, it gets all over the place and is just plain messy. Conservative Judaism is a vegetable soup that refuses to stay within the bowl of Halacha. It claims an allegiance to Halacha, but, in fact and practice, it is outside of all known and accepted Halachic boundaries. Only its ignorant masses still believe that it is a legitimate form of Judaism. It is not! By validating mixed prayer services, the authorities are kashering an unacceptable form worship. We have to conclude that this form of "prayer" is not what the Torah wants and has little or no value and their prayers are in vain. So it seems to me.

No, we didn't sit. But instead of doing what you did against your own brethren (even if they are gay and lesbian) you should have been defending that part of the wall if it is so dear to you. All Conservative and Reform Jews want is equality. They are prepared to compromise (instead of rightfully demanding a part of the Western Wall Plaza, they agreed to Robinson's Arch). You and Rabbi of the Kotel Rabinowitz, on the other hand, only are strong in the face of Conservative, choosing instead to cower before Arabs. Where are crowds of Jews defending Mugrabi Gate? Where? Once Israel loses control of it, surely you will acuse us of it, instead of yourself.

I wonder why their petition would start and end with access to the Kotel. Why not demand that the Jews be permitted to pray atop the Temple Mount? Yet another ploy for the US based Conservative movement. I have to wonder too, why the connection to the Kotel? Didn't the conservative movement recently endorse the notion that the Torah is not divine? Without the Law, what is the Jewish connection to the temple or temple service? Tradition? If merely tradition, why not abide by the status quo?

No one has the right to tell anyone where to carry out his belief. No one has the right to tell anyone how to pray. The divisions between us are the reason that so many Jews have been massacred over the age. We criticize Arab fundamentalism but are out Jewish fundamentalists any better? The whole discriminatory thing against the Conservative and the Reform Movements by Orthodox Jewry is simply a disgrace. They demand tolerance but are totally intolerant of others.

Timely, regularly and consistently hold a placard, serve hot coffee to the Mishtarah and Mag"v; stand in front of an Arab bulldozer or dumptruck. DO something HERE, -- not from Brooklyn. You're kidding yourself, not me. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

The right to religious practice is like the right to swing your arms. If you get too close to my nose that's where your right ends, with whatever firmness is required. You automatically blame "fundamentalists" for the problem. That's an baseless opinion not a fact. Hellenist Reformers, not the advocates of the pristine original religion, are both intruders and dividers. "Fundamentalists," which increasingly suggests Muslims, aggressively and forcibly impose their religion on others. That certainly doesn't apply to Orthodox, It is Hellenist Reformers coming here from abroad who try to inject their assimilation into our batei k'nesset. Thus, the intruders, imposers and dividers are the non-Orthodox; rendering your labeling of Orthodox as "fundamentalists" a slanderous insinuation. Speaking for myself, I have no wish to impose any belief on you or anyone else. Nor do I know any Orthodox who do. However, I shall continue to resist, as firmly as necessary, when assimilators aggressively attempt to impose their contra-Biblical practices in the Biblical Holy Land. The only claim that Jews have to the Holy Land is the berit of Torah -- which defines Israel as those who do their utmost to live Torah according to mishpat (Halakhah). When you abandon that berit you abandon the only historically documented claim to this land. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Although there is a disconnect between the ancient Khasidim and the heresy of mysticism that began in the 10th century C.E. associated with many modern Khasidim, the ancient Khasidim are described not only in Talmud but, many scholars maintain, are also cited in Tehilim and trace back all the way to Devarim 33.8. In B.C.E. 175, the Khasidim were led by the last true Kohein ha-Gadol, Khonyo Ben-Shimon (II) Ben-Tzadoq (aka Onias III) - the Mori Tzedeq - who was forcibly displaced by his rabidly Hellenist brother, Yehoshua Ben-Shimon (II) Ben-Tzadoq (aka Jason). The Mori Tzedeq was the last true leader of the original ancient Khasidim. Yehoshua Ben-Shimon became the first, of many successors, to be called the Kohein ha-Resha (Wicked Priest) and began the process of splitting off the rabidly Hellenist Tzedoqim (Sadducees) from the original Khasidim. The rabidly Hellenist Tzedoqim followers (and successors) of Yehoshua Ben-Shimon were widely known through Israel as Kohanei ha-Resha - who purchased the office from the Romans without even being of the lineage of Aharon, much less Tzadoq. By B.C.E. 166, these Kohanei ha-Resha had firmly taken control of the Beit ha-Miqdash (ha-Sheini), (Interestingly, it was the Kohanei ha-Resha Tzedoqim, not Pharisees, who framed Ribi Yehoshua in an illegal beit din (at night on a Jewish festival) and screamed for his execution before Herod, who turned him over to their Hellenist compatriots - the Romans.) The last remnants of the Kohanim element of Khasidim, having been expelled from the Beit ha-Miqdash by the Kohanei ha-Resha Tzedoqim, are found at Qumran. The non-priest element of Khasidim came to be known as Perushim (Pharisees). The Perushim (Pharisees) soon split into two schools: Beit Shamai and Beit Hileil. Today's Orthodox are the descendents of Beit Hileil and the Ultra-Orthodox emulate (however inadvertently) Beit Shamai. There is no significant difference between the Hellenist assimilators of the Beit ha-Miqdash ha-Sheini and the Hellenist Reformed (and Reformed offspring, Conservative) assimilators of today. Christianity is a variant of Hellenism. Thus, there is no significant difference between modern Reformed Hellenism (NOT Judaism), Conservative Hellenism (NOT Judaism) -- with their churches, "Hannukah Bushes" and assimilation -- and Hellenist Christianity. Reformed Hellenism and Conservative Hellenism loudly decry their non-belief in Yesh"u with their mouths while commemorating Yesh"u and its saints and traditions with their actions. My Ribi said you can recognize them by their works. The Hellenization-Reform of the Beit ha-Miqdash led to its destruction. The Hellenization-Reform of the 19th century led to the Holocaust -- "Yaaqov's Trouble." Does no one see a pattern there? They have no place in a Beit K'nesset. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Fact is neither the reform, conservitive or orthodox are giving G-d and original prayer, which is the ONLY Moses given rule about praying. Considering the kabalistic nature of prayer structure and the repetition of a non-orginal prayer, they all should be questining if they should approach the holy. Kabbalah was once forbidden as majic, now Jewish homes and prayers ooze with it. Considering Ballam and Ballak story, it should be clear that majic degrades the power of Israel against those who attempt to curse them. Am I the only fool who sees this? Pass the test, read. Try reading the simple (pashoot) and understanding how these groups fit or don't fit into the context and words of G-d communicated by his hired communicator Mosses (not rabbis). No one shall get it for you.... One G-d One Love.

Hey, I was not screaming "oy, gevolt! the destruction!" You were. I just have relatives in Israel, and might move there one day, with my gay boyfriend. (I am sure this is what you wanted, right? for me to move to Israel). That is why I partiipate on this forum. I do not feel the need to "do something." If you and the rest of Haredim are not allowing for gays and lesbians to walk through the secular parts of West Jerusalem, you decry Masorti wanting to pray in mixed groups at the Wall (or like Rabbi Rabinowitz at the Arch). Why should I worry about the Wall, where I will not even be allowed to pray according to my belief by the likes of you? For now, I'll just worry about the Robinson Arch.