No one is trying to shut down the stores for Shabbat. No one is throwing the acid on women's dresses (mind you, religious women). No one is preventing non-Orthodox Jews from praying at the Wall the way they want. All of these are examples of religious coersion, whether you recognize it as such or not. You can call it halakha, you can call it anything you wish. Yet, the constant attempts to impose your religious beliefs on the rest of the population is religious coercion. The only thing Orthodox are not concerned about is when it is them in front of somebody else's nose.

And if it was the Reform movement that caused Holocaust, how come G-d did not spare Hasidim and Orthodox Jews? How come G-d allowed all of those pogroms through Europe in all of those centuries when Rabinnic Judaism was the norm? When there was nothing yet of Reform or Conservative? Why were Jews being continuously killed in Spain, France, Germany, Poland, etc... through all of those times? If you give a reason, make it a good reason, and not a pathetic excuse...

Who do you want to convince that you are an "Israeli orthodox Jew" , you are preaching as a chistian missionary , not wondering to me since you were one .

You are right , Hanouccah is a feast of liberation , and as Pesach , i like this very much .

It's the same question i asked already many times . Not received any satisfying answer .

I agree: Jews should abide by the norms and values established at Sinai and codified by the rabbis. To that end, I believe that Chabadnikim should loudly disavow the messianists in their midst and publically acknowledge that the Rebbe, although a tsaddik, was neither divine nor the messiah. Rejection of such very reasonable, Jewish concepts should be grounds for treatment of Lubavitchers as outliers, akin to the Reform and Conservative movements. What say you, Kyle? Forget the movement in toto: will you make such a declaration on these boards? And if not, will you be willing to acknowledge that different perspectives are possible within Judaism?

Paqid Yirmәyahu Ben-Dawid, né Clint Van Nest, is a former Baptist minister who attended Hampden DuBose Academy. He is a member of Mensa and an American vet of the USAF Air Intelligence Agency (security clearance: Top Secret Crypto Codeword), serving in Germany and honorably discharged after a 4-year stint. Clint earned a B.Sc. from the University of Fla. (Gainesville) in 1968. He has done graduate work in computer science and worked as a Safety Engineer for a large insurance company in Canada and New England, as Personnel Director for a trucking and construction firm in Florida and as a Software Engineer entrepreneur in Israel. He made aliyah to Israel under the Law of Return in 1985 and served in the Israel Defense Forces reserves and as a volunteer in the Israeli police reserves. His great- x6 grandfather, Pieter Pieterse Van Nest, immigrated to New Amsterdam — before there was a New York or United States — in 1647, just 25 years after the Mayflower. After years of research into the numerous contradictions of Christian doctrine (see Who Are the Nәtzarim? in the Nәtzarim Judaica Shoppe of our Mall), Clint and his wife, Karen, who studied with him, began to do their best to keep Torah and legally changed their names (Orange County Circuit Court, FL; 1983) to be as much like their first-century Ribi Yәhoshua, as they could. All during this time, Karen worked as a dental hygienist to support them so he could do the research and resolve their concerns about the many contradictions in Christianity. Since, she has continued working so that he can now make this information accessible to others. To forestall misunderstandings in the Jewish community, Yirmәyahu immediately informed the head of the local (Central FL) Jewish Community Center and a local rabbi of his new name and that he was doing his best to become like a Jew, not professing to be a Jew and not wanting anyone to jump to the wrong conclusions and be deceived. After a considerable period interacting with the local Jewish community, openly professing his positions as a follower of Ribi Yәhoshua as the Mashiakh and concealing nothing, Yirmәyahu was astounded when an Orthodox rabbi agreed to convert him — the first openly-professing follower of Ribi Yәhoshua since 333 C.E. to be legitimized in the same community — and authentic teachings — in which Ribi Yәhoshua and his original followers lived, taught and interacted: the mainstream and legitimate Orthodox Jewish community! PD: extract from his own website... for more visit his "honorable" website...

At the Kotel, it causes no offence to a secular Jew to show respect by respecting the sensitivities of the orthodox Jew who considers this to be a religious sight. I doubt an orthodox Jew would request that the congregation in a reform synagogue separate man from women should he wish to attend the bar-mitzvah of a relative there. I will bet any money that all secular Jews visiting foreign temples would not hesitate for a moment to take their shoes off where requested to do so! If the Kotel is so holy to them let the gesture of separation be a sign of respect.

You cannot QUOTE anything Christian that I have written because there is nothing. Christians and Christianity are defined by Christians, not you or any other Jew. Neither the Netzarim nor I are Christian or have any connection to Christianity whatsoever. It is clear in my books and website that we reject the "New Testament" entirely. It is clear in my books and website that we reject the Christian Jesus as nothing more than a post-135 C.E. Roman-Hellenist counterfeit and pagan idol. Any Christian in the world will immediately confirm that we are definitely NOT Christian. Jews who think they are more authoritative about Christianity than Christians are almost as brilliant as Christians who presume to be more authoritative about Judaism than Orthodox Jews! I am a member in good standing of an Orthodox beit k'nesset here in Ra'anana, where my Orthodox conversion has been thoroughly documented. The seculars, Reformed and Conservative, including their homosexuals and Christians among them, are merely beside themselves because I pointed out that the greatest major change in the Jewish Community preceding the Holocaust -- which precipitated the Holocaust as promised in Torah -- was a great European assimilation, straying from Torah, called Reformed Judaism. (Conservative Judaism subsequently split off from Reformed Judaism.) Moreover, it is abundantly clear that no one in the Jewish community is anywhere near as effective as I am in demonstrating [a] the contradictions in Christianity [b] its falseness as a displacement theology and [c] why and how they should abandon Christianity and Yesh"u and turn, instead, to Torah. Your baseless slander puts you as far away from Torah as any Christian or J4Jzus. When you lack an intelligent response to the message, I see you resort to attacking the messenger with a baseless ad hominem. Speaks volumes about you. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

I can't believe what you wrote! "Check out some skirt?" "Chicks????" "Penis envy???" "Act according to your own roles???" You've got to be kidding!Where my husband davens there are men who constantly talk throughout the davening! Maybe the presence of women would make them behave more repectfully!

His organization is a false front for Christian missionaries. Jews beware.

If the reformists and others are the causes of the Shoah , why were all the GOOD orthodox Jews in Poland murdered ? And who do you try to convince that you are an Israeli Orthodox Jew ? Nobody , exepts you is adding this after his name . My opinion it's because you are NOT an othodox Jew , as many other talkbackers write , you are a fake Jew . All the others have not to do it , they ARE JEWISH 100 % , with a JEWISH background , with the JEWISH history engraved in their blood .

In a quick scan I didn't notice any editing, omissions, etc. So what, exactly, do you perceive to be the problem in that quote? (Grinning at the prospect of the mistake I just KNOW you, brimming with overconfidence while ignorant of history, are about to make -- like so many before you.) Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

The Western wall or Kotel belongs to all Jews, no matter if they are Orthodox,Conservative or Reform. Why should any Rabbi say anthing different? All be told the Rabbi 's are not incharge of anything, nor should they interpret the Torah, that was left to the Cohenim(the Priestly class) desendents of AAronbrother of Moses. A Rabbi is simply suppose to be a teacher, while the Cohenim are the only ones who may interpret the holy Book! So give it a rest, let all who wish to pray at the Wall to do so, return the power to the rightful decendants of AAron, for it is only when they will return to their rightful place will the Messiah return!

paqid is a proselyte convert. his kids will be considered jewish because of their jewish mother (assuming she is not a convert also) but he is a proselyte convert.

Paqid does certainly not undertanding what you mean by "honorable" website . I know what it means "honorable" in this case .

The Rebbe OB"M was a great man, sadly he was not chosen to be Moshiach. I have never said otherwise on this or any other forum.

Not to put down any other massacres and killings that went on in the days before reform was founded but could you honestly compare a 6 yr war of just wiping out any remnance of Judaism in the world with no mercy to being expelled from different countries. If hitler gave you the chance to leave or die i am sure most if not every would leave. although the crusade era and other massacres were also to wipe out, it was not 6 yrs long or 6 million in total. So before you ask why people were murdered before reform came about ask if they died the same way. And to prove how different they all were than the holocaust and cannot be compared is that after all was done before WWII majority Jews still lived in Europe yet after WWII it was all over. You couldn't go back to your house because it was taken and even if it wasn't who would live there with those memories. Therefore it could very well be the reformed movement and the rest who believed in Berlin as a Jewish capital, that lived rich in great big houses as if Israel was never to come back were the cause of jealousy from the Germans to the Jews. They weren't jealous of the orthodox jews I guarantee you. As to why good die with bad. It is a question of 3000 years. We are all attached and one when one arm gets pulled down it takes down the whole body. That is why we have to be united in this long fight of Galut. Torah the way we received it 3000 yrs ago is that only attachment.

Certainly, not everything that goes wrong should be taken as an indication of someone's transgression, a faulty mezuzah or the like. I've criticized that simplistic view as well. On the other hand, it's not unreasonable, given the promises of blessings and curses relative to keeping or straying from Torah, respectively, that events in Israel's history that are clearly monumental in scope, dramatically shaping Israel's history, be related to keeping Torah. In every punishment of Israel as a people, the good were rarely (if ever) separated out to punish only the transgressors of Torah. When the balance of Israel tipped toward straying, everyone suffered; including the good. I think most reasonable Jews would agree that the destruction of the Beit ha-Miqdash and the Holocaust were monumental in scope and dramatically shaped Israel's history. I noticed in an earlier message the assertion that there was no Reform during the Christian persecutions. That's just wrong. There have most certainly been a plethora of Hellenists (Jews) from the time that the Tzedoqim took over the Beit ha-Miqdash until today. What I teach about the Hellenists perverting the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua into a counterfeit idol is too complicated and requires too much historical knowledge for most people -- Jews and Christians (and even more so for Muslims, for that matter). Most everyone has a challenging time being confronted with so much information they haven't been taught (much of it scholars didn't know until the last few decades) that, if I didn't state where I'm coming from I doubt anyone would have a chance of figuring it out. As it is, the only ones who know are those who make the effort to check it out instead of assuming or swallowing the slander that goes around (also based on assumptions and ignorance). Further, not all of those claiming to be Jews are what they claim. Many -- like you -- remain anonymous and it's anybody's guess. One can only make determinations based on what they write. And, as you've read, I'm not the only one who rejects Reform, Conservative and seculars -- as well as the racist definition of "blood." There are Jews not by blood and there are Eisaus of Jewish mothers and Ishmaeils of Jewish fathers who don't satisfy the definition of the berit of Torah. Another place I differ from Khareidim, however, is that I don't consider most Israeli "seculars" as really secular. I know many of these Jews. They light candles on Erev Shabbat, keep Pesakh and the other festivals, fast on Yom Kipur and generally try the best they know to live by "the principles of" Torah. I've asked many of them and the answer I hear a lot is that they just don't accept a lot of the minutiae that rabbis have "added" in contravention of Devarim 13.1, et al. Perhaps unlike the Khareidim, while they reject the typical image of rabbinic Orthodoxy, I see these Jews, nevertheless, as close to Torah. Most I've talked to don't buy into Reform or Conservative (by which, BTW, I refer to American-style; Australian and other "Conservatives" seem closer to the Orthodox than American Conservatives). The Judaism they come up short of practicing is strictly Orthodox. Well, they come up short of rabbinic demands. But I think if a more reasonable, Beit Hileil, attitude was shown them by some Orthodox we might have a revolution. I see the more tolerant and reasonable, Beit Hileil, attitude every Shabbat in my Teimani beit ha-k'nesset. You're not far away. If you're receptive to a moderate, and not Ashkenazi, Orthodox experience, arrange to stay in Ra'anana (near Shwartz street) for a Shabbat and visit Moreshet Avot (Shwartz 10). Let me know in which Shabbat (via my website) and I'll make a special effort not to miss, iy"h. Then you also won't have any further doubts about me. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

There are many commenting here that all Jews have the right to pray at the Kotel. This is not the issue. All Jews (and even non Jews) can pray at the Kotel. But there are rules and the rules should apply to all. Please tell me how someone's religious beliefs are being denied if they cannot pray in a mixed environment at the Kotel. I bet you can't. The adherents of the conservative movement are not obligated to pray in a mixed environment. That is a truth. Rules and regulations apply to all aspects of life. Just because someone has a right to drive does not give them the right to drive at 125MPH through a school zone at 3 pm. Just because someone has a right to smoke, that does not give them the right to smoke on an airplane. Stop whining like little, spoiled children.

The only time i visited a synaguoge since i made Alyah , was last year . Not to pray , but to see by myself how some had desecrated this synaguoge . This was in 2006 . Before this , i can't remember . Regarding the Shoa , Israeli Jews don't call this holocaust , Why were those people murdered ? You did'nt give me a serious acceptable answer . I won't come to your "beth knesseth" , if i want to go to a synaguoge i have one near my home , two houses from mine , with true Jews , who have not to add "israeli Orthodox Jew" after their name . I'm not the only one who calls you a fake or convert proselyte one . And the quote given by one of the talkbackers come from your website , not reliable source . Give me some other , but serious , sources .

But why the true religious ? why the children , innocent babies ? It were not the Berlin Jews who are the cause of the Shoa , Most people there did'nt even know they were Jews , or did'nt even know what a Jew is . The Shoa occured because they had to find a scapegoat for their problem , and what is easier than a unknown minority ? Did'nt you have a great antisemitism in Poland ? there Jews were not so rich , were mostly orthodox . It's not the wealth , nor the reform or liberal judaism , who created the Shoa . Another thing , Jews remained Jewish because of the Tora , you and others say . In my view , it was antisemitism and non acceptance of Jews as relatives , who did this . Think about it . Sad to say we have also racism here , Sefardim , Ashkenazim , Ethiopian , and so on . And for the most we are all Jews ....

Paqid please forgive me for accusing you of being a "Jew for Jesse". Your website is misleading I would consider doing a rewrite. I think I have started this. dovid n. Orthodox Jew

... thanks for your response. One more question: who determines who is outside acceptable Jewish norms? Satmar chassdim, for example, believe Lubavitcher chassidim to be beyond the pale. A few years back, the Satmar Rebbe levied a herem against the Rebbe. Should Lubavitchers therefore be prohibited from davening at the kotel? There's a lot of folks in B'nei Brak and parts of Jerusalem who believe Zionism to be an abomination. Should all Dati Leumi observances be ignored/unrecognized by Medinat Yisrael? My concern is that the general attitude within contemporary Israeli society seems to be, loosely, that "anyone who is less stringent than me is an apikoros, and anyone more stringent/who observes different customs is a misguided lunatic." Who gets to decide? And where does skepticism of another's convictions cross the line and become sinat chinam?

Before the 19th Century Massive violent attacks against Jews date back at least to the Crusades, as well as the York Castle massacre of 1190. (Thousands of Jews perished, and entire Jewish communities were wiped out. To this day, the Jewish liturgy contains prayers commemorating the martyrs of that dreadful period.) In 1348, because of the hysteria surrounding the Black Plague, Jews were massacred in Chillon, Basle, Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, Dresden, Strasbourg, and Mainz -- 12,000 in Mainz alone. (Christian mobs attacked Jewish settlements across Europe; by 1351, sixty major and 150 smaller Jewish communities had been destroyed, and more than 350 separate massacres had occurred.) A large number of the surviving Jews fled to Poland, which was very welcoming to Jews at the time. In 1543, Martin Luther wrote On the Jews and Their Lies, a treatise in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people. Jews were also massacred during the Khmelnytsky Uprising of Ukrainian Cossacks in 1648-1654. (estimates ranging from 18,000 to 50,000; while Jewsih sources of the time reports 2-3 millions, which was obviously an exaggeration, but conveys the sense of destruction, hopelessness and despair). And so that Sefardim don't feel left out: Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7) Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344) I think I made my point. Holocaust was not really something unusual from the point of killing Jews. Numerical reasons are also not that impressive. Jewish population through centuries has been losing a very high percentage of to murders. Holocaust was unusual only because it was a sustained, mechanized effort at genocide. So, find another excuse for Holocaust than the division of European Judaism into Reform, Conservative and Orthodox.

The bottom line is G-D gets to decide. There are certain norms that have been followed for many centuries that should be observed. It's not important what brand of cottage cheese you eat or the shape of your hat. BUT: Someone who claims that G-D did not give the Torah at Sinai, or there was never an Exodus, or that Moses did not exist, is not "expressing an opinion" but "separating oneself from the community."

Dovid, wake up man!!!, in his own words he is: "...openly professing his positions as a FOLLOWER of Ribi Yәhoshua as the MASHIAKH! and concealing nothing..." please read again carefully!... "Ribi Y*hoshua" is Jesse!!!!

"Should Lubavitchers therefore be prohibited from davening at the kotel?" No one is prohibiting the Conservative Jews (or Reform Jews or progressive Jews or non Jews) from praying at the Kotel. It is a baseless and foolish argument. All that is wanted is that the long established rules of conduct be adhered too. Furthermore, while non mixed sex davening does NOT violate ANY prohibitions for any Jewish group or gentile, mixed sex davening does violate prohibitions for the frum groups. Seems to me the Conservative movement is trying to impose their beliefs on others.