that Xns don't "still evade the truth and ignore inconvenient facts." You'll find you've assumed something I've never suggested. I know better than most that Xns evade the truth and ignore inconvenient historical facts. My website is primarily about educating them to that fact.

Let's not forget that there are some people out there who are hell-bent to destroy all of us, regardless to which section of that Book either one of us subscribes. Maybe for the sake of our survival it would be in our best interest to look for what we have in common; at least, until that threat has been averted. We can bicker again later.

Please wake up. both people you talk about HAVE NO BOOKS. There is only ONE BOOK ALIVE THAT IS CALLED QURAN (C.C.) enjoy your lives. but, we all will end up at the garden of The GOD (G-D). read The Book, make your soul free. thanks. with Love. Atilla

dont even try. find The Book and read it, please. I am a friend. friends dont lie. love Atilla Karagözoğlu

your Rabbi about my faith. Well, studied I have and now over 50 years. I have to study to the end of my life but you seem to know best only false constructions of your own. Read, study the Messianic Isaiah, all prophecies and then where it is said that Christians "replaced" as a folk the people of God. You probably want afterwards to be more suspicious about the alleged "replacement" theology and who has an interest in spreading it. I suppose you dwelled on the very controversial third declaration Nostra Aetate which you - and some others - probably used to elaborate your somehow biased message, the old refrain of replacement theology. Stop rejecting NT and Yeshua and you will understand Vatican II. Is it anti-Semitic to say that the Rabbinical authorities sentenced Jesus to death and the Romans did the job ? I do not say all Jews of the time and of today are responsible for it. Of course not and the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican (Vatican II) doesn't say it either. You might first read this long document (16 documents, among which 4 constitutions, 9 decrees and 3 declarations). One of the 3 declarations is Nostra Ætate (Relations with Non-Christians), probably the one you used to belittle me. No need belittling me, I already feel so insignificant - that term is not strong enough - compared to the glory of the Lord. Peace be with you.

I don't know what you've been studying for 50 years but you are completely ignorant on the subjects of displacement (or replacement) theology and misojudaism (popularly anti-Semitism). The Xn claim that the NT supersedes Tanakh demonstrates and absolutely PROVES that Xy is a displacement theology. Without that displacement you have nothing whatsoever. Moreover, you still haven't read the most fundamental and definitive scholarly historical work setting forth the historical rudiments of modern misojudaism. AFTER you've read The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue by Oxford historian James Parkes, then you'll have become acquainted with the basics. Until then, you remain an a voice of ignorance regurgitating the same old unfounded and error-riddled personal beliefs week after week. I was a Xn. I educated myself and know better. So far you've refused to educate yourself. Deal with historical documentation and reality. Read the book. You can get it from Amazon.com and similar sources.

AND HIS INVOLVEMENT THE HOLOCAUST

Can we , as true Jews , blame the Vatican for adding some documents aimed to combat antisemitism ? Why not applaude ? Is the church of today guilty of the crimes comitted , in name of the church of the dark ages , against us ? There are points that have to been solved , the most important being their archives for the Shoa period . This could of course contribute to show their sincerity . That antisemitism had his roots in the church is certainly true for Europe , this evil existed also in non Christian countries . But this is older history , exept for some dignitaries . Who could imagine , 50 years ago , that a pope would visit a Synagogue ? There is a progress , and now we can add that the church begins to realise that the only country where there is freedom of religion in the whole middle east , is here , in this country whose inhabitant's forfatheren were so harshly persecuted in her name .

Even children know that Jesus has come not to abolish but to fulfill the Law. That doesn't imply that NT supersedes the Law. Day after day I am walking on two legs, old and new testaments : they reinforce themselves, they do not annihilate themselves, they both feed on the same word, no one makes the other one null and void. Modern apologetics sees displacement (supersessionism) where there is none. "As St. Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek...for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal 3:28-29) and "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus" (Eph 3:6). In short, according to supersessionism, both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles have been joined together as one, united into one people by faith through Jesus Christ. No one, therefore, is REPLACED, but faith in Jesus Christ has replaced physical lineage as the determining factor for identifying God's chosen people... Romans 1:16-17: I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[Habakkuk 2:4]. From the above we say if Jews reject Jesus, they are still saved even so doing. What is so complicated that you try not to allow God to save all who are his children ?

Thank you for the discussion. It proves only how easily the religions can cause damage to the brains ))))

and a wise man. Thank you for all who will read your so tolerant, hopeful message.

I think like you He is the King who will enter the new Jerusalem. On that day, all good people will be drawn into union with Him and hence into the abyss of His eternal mercy.

I find it odd that you know which people I'm talking about. It is my opinion that there would be no Koran, were it not for the Book you say doesn't exist, but from which Mohammed borrowed so liberally. Atilla, I hate to tell you this, but SOMEBODY had books a few thousand years before Mohammed came along. Qur'an 87:18: "This is surely in the earlier Books, the Books of Abraham and Moses." Tabari I:346 "Someone among the people of the Torah said, 'Methuselah was born to Enoch......" The chronology of the people in the "borrowed" material is a little out of whack most of the time, but hey, that happens, when you're illiterate. Nevertheless, you have the right to believe as you wish which is something on which I insist for myself.

which results in a righteous tongue / act, does not make the one righteous. It merely keeps their head above the guilt. I read very few JEWS on this talkback. Yeshua FULFILLING Torah does not mean the same thing to every person. Christians originally prayed to G-d through Messiah (some of course don't because they were not taught that way). Much like Tanach ceremonial system used an intermediary or mediator (another one of the Tamidic Jewish strawman arguments), in the assurance system for guilt removal. A theology that removes or twists (like some of Christianity at times as well as Rabbinical Judiasm)Tanach, and emphasises that is a false theology according to Tanach. They could be doctrines or teachings by men, or beliefs, but should not be considered on the same authority.

The successor to the Grand Inquisitor, which is now the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church MUST strengthen ties to Judaism as a necessity for the sake of survival. Past and present research methods of "German High Biblical criticism" have revealed that the theological foundations of the church are extremely shakey at best. (These are the same methods which informed and influenced the growth and spread of Reform Judaism) . The Church needs Judaism as a foundation to help bolster it's claims of Jesus being the fulfillment of the Torah, and hence, a new testament which the church is supposedly the continuation. Without close links with Judaism, the church has little hope of continueing the charade (of the divinity of Jesus) and of slowing the hemmorage of disillusioned catholics from leaving the church. Whether the Pope is personally sincere or not, stronger and closer ties with Judaism are a matter of survival for the Roman church.

We all can have our opinions, but One Great and Dreadful Day of the LORD, the Truth will be very evident for all to see; and depending on whose side you are on, will determine your destiny… Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”

We don't mind not helping you on the fight against anti-semitism if that's what you want. Just don't ask for help from the Pope like what your leaders are doing.

To say that Christianity is anti-semitic is another big lie. Christian role models in the old and new testaments are Jewish. I started reading the Bible at an early age, and learned to love Israelis like most young Catholics, even if we know who was behind the crucifixion. It is only after we learned more about the acts of the modern Jewish people that we started to distance ourselves. But if the Pope tells us to embrace the Jews, why not? Anti-semitism is not about the crucifixion of Christ. Ask an anti-semite, and he will tell you its about modern abuses.

Those who belittle the Catholic Church are very little indeed. Here in our country, we cannot stop wondering how these people missed so much enlightenment. They are so funny and misguided like James Cameron who thought he had what it takes.

You wrote: "but faith in J*esus Christ has replaced physical lineage as the determining factor for identifying God's chosen people." That's replacement theology. You are deliberately deceiving. It has always been the berit of Torah, not "physical lineage," that determines who is among Am Yisraeil. Yishmaeil and Eisau prove the point. Your ignorance of Torah is exposed yet again. Your displacement theology depends on your J*esus-G-d changing, "replac[ing] physical lineage as the determining factor." But ha-Sheim doesn't change (Malakhi 3.6; Tehilim 89.35). It is still, and always will be, the berit of Torah alone that determines who is among Am Yisraeil. Your J*esus and your NT are intractably contradictory, incompatible and prohibited by Torah. Further, your NT declares that Yesh"u (J*esus) stated: "...no man cometh to the Father but by me." That excludes EVERY Torah-keeping Orthodox Jew. That's displacement theology; your NT displacing Torah. NO Torah-keeping Orthodox Jew believes in your J*esus; not one!!! Moreover, it's an impossibility since they are mutually contradictory. Therefore, your reasoning DISPLACES Torah-keeping Jews with Christians. That's replacement theology. You are deliberately deceiving. If the NT was "mutually enriching," as you put it, then you could logically reason from Torah to, le-havdil, the NT. Instead, Torah prohibits the NT and, if you'd crack a world-renowned history book, you'd learn that there is an absolute disconnect and intractable contradiction between the first century Torah-teaching Pharisee Ribi and the 4th century counterfeit Roman version based on their Hellenist gods. That disconnect can found in Paul, who -- the earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius, recorded -- was excised as an apostate by the original (Netzarim) followers of Ribi Yehoshua. Thus, the attempt to reason logically from Torah to, le-havdil, the NT not only fails but DISPROVES the NT. The Xn claim that the NT supersedes Tanakh demonstrates and absolutely PROVES that Xy is a displacement theology. Without that displacement, you have nothing but a pagan Roman counterfeit that is PROVEN false,. Moreover, you still haven't read the most fundamental and definitive scholarly historical work setting forth the historical rudiments of modern misojudaism. AFTER you've read The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue by Oxford historian James Parkes, then you'll have become acquainted with the basics. Until then, you remain an a voice of ignorance regurgitating the same old unfounded and error-riddled personal beliefs week after week. I was a Xn. I educated myself and know better. So far you've refused to educate yourself. Deal with historical documentation and reality. Read the book. You can get it from Amazon.com and similar sources. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Translated literally: "The end of the matter when all has been heard: Revere Elohim and keep His Mitzwot [commandments of Torah]; for this is all of the man. For Elohim will bring every maaseh [deed or practice] into mishpat [judgment of the beit din = Halakhah], concerning every hidden thing, [which determines] whether [it is] good or bad." Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

There is no word for Church in the NT (it was a later invention from kyriakos and used in other writings from around 2nd century). Oikodomeo does not mean "will build", it is a progressive or durative future, which has no beginning n time(or starting point). Church is really a false entity on which doctrines from the centuries have been built upon in which are designed to either "replace or seperate" Israel. It is right there in front of us. Yeshua came to build up or upon (Israel never before seen from Eph. 2 / kainos man), not create brand new from scratch. Saving knowledge teachings; Some older treasures and some newer treasures a wise man keeps. Older wineskins are always PREPARED by soaking and rubbing with oil before fresh wine is put in them. A new patch must be pre-shrunk before placing on an older garment...Yeshua did not say throw the older garment out. Be blessed.

What definitions mean to different persons (whether Xn OR Jew) doesn't alter Christian definitions and doctrines, which have been defined by the Church since the 4th century CE and are well defined in historical documentation. If your view is different than the Christian view then, instead of avoiding reality and pretending you define some new version of Xy, you need to start recognizing that you are defining yourself out of Christianity. That, BTW, is a good thing. But stop trying to argue that you can redefine Christianity to your liking or for your polemic convenience. The NT is the absolute authority of Xy that not even the pope can overrule. You have profound misconceptions about Torah. Tanakh does NOT teach that a "ceremonial system used an intermediary or mediator... in the assurance system for guilt removal." Officiating a symbolic ceremony does NOT logically imply either an intermediary or mediator. The first followers of the Torah-teaching Pharisee Ribi from Natzrat held the identical views about the Mashiakh as all other Pharisees. Contrary to your unfounded, bald assertion, they did NOT pray "through the messiah." By contrast, the first proto-Xns that began to start looking like your Xn views began with Paul around 64 CE (whom, your earliest Church historian, Eusebius, records the original followers of Ribi Yehoshua excised as an apostate). There were no Xns, as defined by the 4th century Church and subsequent Christianity, until 135 CE. You, too, are conspicuously ignorant of history. Read Oxford scholar-historian James Parkes' definitive book on the subject: The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue (Amazon.com, et al). Then we can discuss it intelligently. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Probably you never thought much on that. You are disingenious in your postings , or perhaps you miread or don't understand always? I already have quite a library. I am a meat and potato person.

you too are still of the belief or understanding that ASSURANCE is based upon merit (either Yeshua or Torah)? Often time "sin" is understood generically in the NT, when it really implies guilt or iniquity. Guilt is not a penalty imposed it is a consequence.

Quote; "Christians originally prayed to G-d through Messiah (some of course don't because they were not taught that way). Much like Tanach ceremonial system used an intermediary or mediator (another one of the Tamidic Jewish strawman arguments), in the assurance system for guilt removal. " end; I said Christians ORIGINALLY DID PRAY to G-d through Messiah. Some Christians now FORGET THAT. Whats your beef with that? Are you saying they did not pray through Messiah to G-d (as an intermediary)...In Yeshuas name? I think you are only shakey ground on that one?

So that's the end of the discussion. Demonstrate the NT's validity **from Torah** or stop bringing up irrelevant texts prohibited by Torah. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

again you ? Who needs to add Israeli orthodox jew to convince himself he is it ? Come and say openly what you are , with all the other tbers it is known , but you unther the disguise of an orthodox jew display other views , you try to capt innocent people in your ugly nets .

ים God = Elohim im prular like a triangle 3=1