Jewish Scene
Disengagement from secular state
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 10.05.07, 00:16
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1. yeap, sadly every word is true
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (05.10.07)
2. Kol Hakovod - 100% correct
The People's Voice   (05.10.07)
3. Heard about the "duach mevaker hamedina"?
religious girl   (05.10.07)
See what kind of shchitut these seculars are inmersed into
4. So how does that fit in with "alyiah"?
Steve ,   USA   (05.10.07)
B"H The concept of alyiah has become one of bowing down to a national sovereign that in many cases bashes Jews rather than one of having an "oleh" visa in my mind that permits long-term residence of Jews without requiring bowing down to a secular sovereign. Maybe it is just in my mind, but I see the requirement of pledging allegiance to a secular government in Israel strange. Why would I leave a secular government outside of Israel to go into a secular government inside Israel? It is understandable for there to be a secular government outside of Israel since those outside cannot participate in many of the commandments that require a religious government inside Israel. But if there is no religious government inside Israel, what is the benefit? I think it boils down to where one can individually practice his or faith best. Some are able to prepare for a better situation outside of Israel and others are able to prepare better inside Israel. I suppose that one major fear is that I will go "sour" if I lived inside Israel and participate in the evil of the land. Every land has its evil, but I am truly freightened by the level of evil inside Israel, and not just among the Jews. Why should I expose people close to me to it? And then again the level of good also reaches a greater height than I have seen in many other places. It is such a gamble that one needs to be adequately prepared for. Some gamblers win big, and the odds are much better than the lottery for sure that Israel could be a big win.
5. A Democracy Should be Completely Secular
Fred Farkelsteinman ,   NY, NY USA   (05.10.07)
No society can clam to be a democracy and allow it to be ruled by religious fanatics such as Tal. Israel must create an environment where people of all religious beliefs can practice their chosen beliefs freely and without prejudice, but it must also not let any one religion become intertwined in government Rabbis and Mullahs have a role, but their place is in the Synagogues and Mosques and not in the halls of government, so take a lesson from the greatest nation on the planet, the United States of American, and keep religion out of politics.
6. fanatacism
zichron   (05.10.07)
the rabbi is demonstrating zealot fanatacism rather than humble pain. the disengagement was a failure because once again the jews overestimated badly the goodness of their opponents attributing to them the attributes of forgiveness and remorse for their one hunded and twenty five year denial of jewish escape from antisemite europe to avrahams promised land .
7. Rav Tal is a GADOL in the waiting...
Jesse   (05.10.07)
Genious... Let him lead the new wave of Religious ZIonists.. Heredi calling for mass Aliyah. Let Rav Tal lead the way.
8. religious zionist
golda ,   ranana   (05.10.07)
don't dispear Rabbi because your false mizrahi dream has been shatterd rather be happy that you finaly found the truth.
9. Doubly Delusional
David ,   Los Angeles   (05.10.07)
If he thinks that the State of Israel is a "kingdom that has transformed into apostasy" then he is doubly delusional. Only someone with an utterly warped crazy messianic view of Yiddishkeit could believe the State was ever any sort of kingdom. So to believe that it has now fallen into apostasy is doubly nuts. And anti-semitic. This guy is a triple nut.
10. 100% on the money
david ,   new haven CT   (05.10.07)
11. A majority of the taxpaying public would...
Ayelet Chen ,   Israel   (05.10.07)
gladly disengage from the religious --- whose sticky fingers are everywhere in the corrupt government and the monopolies. The religious have entwined themselves into every government office, draining the coffers, not sending sons and daughters to army or to work, training generation after generation that they deserve anything they can get their hands on, all the while denying taxpaying and army-serving citizens the opportunity to shop when it is convenient, eat what they like, marry and divorce, and worship as suits the individual. The 'monarchy' the religious want is a theocracy.
12. You'd be happy in Iran
13. He's just sore 'cuz his Gaza Miracle didn't happen
Iseeamiracleeveryday ,   USA   (05.10.07)
So he turns inward, seperates himself, finds a 'new' ideology. Nonsense, all of it. The sky didn't part, no angels came to Gaza's rescue. So? Stop whining. You danced and sang. Did you think THAT would save you? Get real.
14. ships sinking
Your Right On Friend ,   lod ramla...   (05.10.07)
when you see {please read all responce #'s Get out of there by...Idan Ben-Barak, who lives in Australia, tells fellow Israelis it's time to now leave Jewish State asap,7340,L-3391151,00.html } responces to articles like...i.e. Finally YNet has the nads to print something honest like this. Thank you for that! As for all the rabid denialists- what realistic plans do you have besides remaining in denial? Fortress Israel (re: open ghetto) is hardly a way for am yisrael to live, much less thrive. I keep reading pathetic and disturbing comments about smashing the arab states...with what exactly? Even if it happened, the entire world would turn on Israel and finish it off for good. Face the facts: secular Zionism has failed spectacularly and no honor attaches itself to waiting around for the next generation of terrorism to incinerate us. We love you all in America- help Judaism thrive and LEAVE ISRAEL. Paul , Austin, USA (04.25.07) to all new olim.welcome to the tinpot 3rd world banana republic of israel where corruption trafficking of women and slave wages are the norm,if you are lucky enough to find will likely die of poverty if terror does not get you first,unless you come with millions in which case you will be constantly ripped off.welcome to paradise barry , safed israel (04.26.07) BrainDead DIB's...Talis Right On,dead center...this whole present un-establishment has gone completely to he!! & it really means sqwuat to waste your time trying doing anything anymore for todays typical DIB'S...i.e. smoothing the transition into a trailer park trash like braindead like society...still riddled by the bureaucracy & redundancy of its socialist roots. At the same time, the shocking statistic of yesteryear – the 50 percent rate of Good Neighborly Americans, returning to the Good Old States – has not yet been disproven. This is the challenge that good intentioned groups like...Nefesh B’Nefesh is facing on behalf of the Jews of the Western exile...& ex-pat, Idan Ben-Barak, who lives in Australia, tells fellow Israelis that it's time to leave the presently unholy land & unJewish like State...of plenty of already mi$$ed oportunitie$,& TO BACK THAT UP... just read another recent ynet TKO pieces...,7340,L-3383769,00.html , Tali..I applaud you and agree with you 1000% percent. Unfortunately Israeli and Diaspora Jews still cling to this erroneous belief that the IDF represents the people, and utilizes each and every sole. I am an American. After finishing an elite university, I made aliyah, enlisted in the army, and spent two years here. Now, I am leaving for good. This country has become corrupt. The government is a disgrace. The living conditions are deplorable. The IDF specifically is an unprofessional, amateurish, and disorganized excuse for a military force. Greater men than any of us die while the government wallows in its filth and fights for the scrappings like a pack of beasts. Why should Tali, or anyone else spend 2-3 years surviving inhumane conditions, and wasting time that could be dedicated to life and career enrichment only to sit on a base and serve coffee and shuffle papers. Even better, after wasting these years, the individual must waste more time earning a pathetic income to begin university studies, only to have them interrupted by calls to reserve duty, student strikes, and government attempts to destroy their only resource-education. The IDF has many amazing individuals. However, at the end of the day, the army structure is non functional. Kudos Tali. I'll be the first to sponsor your American passport. Maybe when enough people realize the deficiencies of the IDF, will it be resurrected into the elite and formidable force it once was. As for Israel, this nation is very special but has been destroyed by greed and incompetence.
15. the party is over
SABRA... ,   nyc   (05.10.07),7340,L-3397886,00.html imagin the main dude in-charge of israeli affairs says so...present day isrea! you should not only be ashamed of yourselvs...of which i am sure your presently incapable of doing so...even the idf moral cant be musterd up, because it is presently not in full command & out of control & in shambles...& all you had to do is see the poor mugs on the looks of thier faces of the returning on foot troops...i.e. get me to the nearest "PUB" because thier was no apparent eye of the thier eyes...& souls, unlike the boys of '67-'74 where the entire world new, because they actually saw & new otherwise...merely by the looks on the faces of the returning hero's & it is simply that everyone today is happy playing the blame game...& really does not when the next big one comes, please dont be suprized, nevermind not really careing...
16. Despite secular hatred towards the religious...
Ilan ,   Ariel   (05.10.07)
The State of Israel was created for the betterment of the people of Israel and little anti-semites (as in #11) do not change my position.
17. 'Mishpacha'/ Ynet
Naomi ,   Israel   (05.10.07)
What a stupid combination. Even more self hatred ad nauseam? Publicity at all costs? I'm losing respect for so many of my own sector, who just have to see their opinions in print, in public, no matter at what cost. In the age of email, and easily arranged local speaking appearances and in-sector communication, this is unnecessary and extremely arrogant. Are they so insecure in their views and have they become so insignificant in their own communities that they have to resort to this?
18. #14 Bye,
Nira   (05.10.07)
take her with you, but please stop shouting .Spoils the whole effect you're trying oh so hysterically and painfully, to achieve.
19. #14 You're hyper ventilating
so get your health fund ready for when you get there buddy.Thats a joke by the way, cos ya wont get any, buddy. Bye.
20. Dear Rabbi
Doron ,   Amsterdam   (05.10.07)
As rabbi kook writes: Before the time of mashiach Am Yisrael will look ugly on the outside but the segula the inner soul of the Jewish people will always be holy. Don’t judge your fellow Jew on the ugly acts but see him as part of the Jewish nation. As Yeshayahu writes: “all of us are holy” the Jewish nation as one, is holy! Unlike individuals who will suffer for their ugly deeds! G’ds ways we do not know, but this phenomona of “backsliding people” has been talked about by most of the prophets. We should encourage the religious zionist youth to engage in self awarness and struggle our way through life… We are called am yisrael because fulfilling a life full of mitzvot needs a lot of struggle against the yetzer hara also known as capitalism and secular society! keep up the struggle! Hashem garanteed you the victory already!
21. We need to learn from Hamas and the Ayatollahs?
Lenny ,   Israel   (05.10.07)
According to this guy's world view, we should live like Islamist fanatics, only change the vocabulary and some of the customs so we can call ourselves Jews, but basically keep the Arab philosophy.
22. This Rabbi
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.10.07)
If he is so disgusted with Israel , no problem , leave . Go to another country where you will feel better ? at HOME ? surrounded by true , and not out of your imagination , antisemites . Rabbi's have their place at the Beth Knesseth , not at the KNESSETH . They can discuss religious matters , no problem ; but no political ones , that's not their domain .
23. No. 5
Renee, NYC   (05.10.07)
Don't kid yourself. Religion has never been kept completely out of politics, even in the U.S. Why do you think it was such a struggle to finally make abortions legal or why the issue of stem cell research is such a divisive one? In fact, until recently, even in a liberal city like New York, you couldn't open a liquor store on Sunday because of the Sabbath "blue laws." But the religious fanatics don't rule Israel. It's just that they've become a thorn in the side of the majority of Israelis due to the country's parliamentary system...a holdover from the British mandate, which allows them a degree of influence which is far out of proportion to their small numbers.
24. What should be done,Tal,to stop this current insanity?
Keren ,   SP-now in Israel   (05.10.07)
How can we all, worried about the current situation ,do somenthing to change its direction more swiftly and effectively? We have lost many times what is the most precious to us-our Destiny- due to our sins and due to accepting and joining gentile cultures as the correct ones ,and do not listening to what was commanded to us and promissed by us. What can we do not to fail again?
25. #5 you are correct
a jewish state cannot be a democracy. If it continues to be such there is a danger in loosing majority votes to muslims. Then Israel will be come a musim state, g-d forbid. The only way to have a Jewish state is take away this so called democracy, turn it into something new. By the way, what is the nation of the US? Can you please define that. I can define the nation of Israel, but I am trying to also define the US in the same manner. Is that possible? Is the US really the greatest? I spend most of my life there. I would halrdly call it the greatest. To be fair it is far from the worst.
26. And if...
Keren ,   SP-now in Israel   (05.10.07)
(G'od forbid)Israel adopts" the secular outlook whole-heartedly" ,it is fated to die very soon-a disgrace!(G'od forbid!)
27. #22: mar charles
Abdullah ,   EuMe   (05.10.07)
salaam, The rav does not hate the country (his home), he disaproves of the governing establishement. It might be hard for you to appreciate the passionate intensity with which a torah-religious jew loves the holy land. It is that love that leads such a person to desire only the best quality of leadership and behaviour in that land. The rav has simply become disillusioned with the govt., the sovereign, if you like. But this country is still his home, irrespective of which sovereign power rules here. The double tragedy is that the rav and others like him attached a religious significance to the jewish state founded in the manner that the state of israil was founded on, which involved dispossessing non-jews. Something that torah CLEARLY forbids. Clealry even the best efforts would find it hard if not impossible to make such a state to respect the torah. Hence the disappointment. Those torah-true Jews who from the beginning saw the injusitice of displacing people from their homes, from the very begining recognized that it would be dangerous to traditional judaism to give religious signicance to the state of israil. Today thay're saddened by the hardships that israilis have faced and continue to face but they weren't deceived to begin with. If torah-observant jews seperate religion (at least true religion) from state, then they will not be disappointed. They can respect the state, without endorsing anti-torah behaviour. The anti-religious will be happy but so will the torah-observant b'cos there will be no more misguided religious beliefs and hopes placed on a secular state, founded by mostly secular people, using secular methods (including displacing the idiginous inhabitants). Perhaps then, true moral change will happen in israili society. The Jewish religion is not like other religions that NEEDs political influence to impact morality. It impacts morality simply by the commitment of those who practice it without compromise.
28. #24 It's Rabbi Tal
Nira   (05.10.07)
Derech Eretz comes even before the Torah, as without it, the mitsvot we keep, aren't worth much. This partly answers your query too, actually. A bit more derech eretz from all of us and life would be much pleasanter here.
29. Abdullah
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.10.07)
They did'nt object to the "displace" from people from their homes . This rav , and all the others [ at least most of them ] refuse the separation of state and religion . More , they even do not accept other tendencies in Judaism to be recognised . They want to rule the state , and the state has to be ruled by torah . Generally i do'nt like to answer to anonymous or fancy names , my name and place are true , i'm not hiding myself with such things
30. Keren
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.10.07)
Without "joining and accepting gentile cultures" our country would still be living [ ? ] in the 18th century . If the religious would show more tolerance towards the seculars , would accept other views , would accept that not everyone can , for different reasons , believe in the Torah , it would be nicer for everyone . But no , they only want to rule the state by their laws , they want everyone to obey the rabbanim . And this can't be accepted by the seculars . With the independance declaration the religious were given very much . they could control births , weddings , conversions and so on . This was very well accepted by most of the people . But they want more and more , and there is a limit on the tolerance .
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