South Africa and Hamas
Kransdorff, Magid
Published: 30.05.07, 08:14
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1. You're Not Threatening Us, or Are You?
Kenneth Mathabane ,   Pretoria, RSA   (05.30.07)
It's unbelievable, almost unconsionable that Michael Kransdorff and Steven Magid are invoking the Bushism of "either you're with us or you're against us" on South Africa. We could do the same with them and subsquently exile them to where their true allegiance is: Israel (not South Africa). Look, as Kasrils pointed out: "we know from our experience that oppression motivates resistance and that the more savage the oppression, the harsher the resistance. At a certain point in time you think that the oppression is working, and that you're controlling the other people, imprisoning its leaders and its activists, but the resistance will triumph in the end." That's why we will forever support the Palestinians in their struggle to overcome their Israeli oppressors. ...the same regime by the way, that was in cahoots with the Apartheid governments that illegally imprisoned, maimed and killed many of our kin and kith.
2. what goes around comes around
Moses ,   Johannesburg, RSA   (05.30.07)
During apartheid we suffered a lot but Israel was supporting the minority apartheid government in all ways even building nuclear bomb to wipe any African countries that can dare try to attack it. Now we are streaching a hand of friendship to Palestinians we are being called names. Ask yourself this question: Why Ronnie Kasrils who is a jew don't see eye to eye with jewish state? Israel was not supporting sanctions against apartheid RSA so why do we have to support a "Wall of shame"?
3. Rockets+Gaza = NO Israeli Water
moshe_Israel ,   k.motzkin, Israel   (05.30.07)
Ron Ishai has proposed a method of improving security in Sderot. The threat of rocket attacks from will not be eliminated though. No means is available to intercept short range rockets with flight times of maybe 30 seconds. Perhaps its time to think in terms of curtailing the life-support systems in Gaza: Israeli supplied: electricity, building supplies, water ...food. QUESTION: Why should a million pals suffer for the deeds of a few hundred pal terrorists? ANSWER: Why should thousands in Sderot, suffer for the ugly deeds of those same pal terrorists ? moshe_Israel
4. South African Schizophrenia?
David Olesker ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (05.30.07)
The key to understanding the ANC's ambivalent attitude to Israel is the deep rooted contempt for public opinion that is a fact of South African political life. The political class in South Africa understands that trade and other links with Israel are beneficial to South Africa. Therefore they maintain, and even nurture them. Since they put little store in public opinion (most South Africans favour the death penalty, but the political class rejects it), they see little harm in indulging the the left wing of their movement in various forms of political posturing against Israel, both at home and abroad. The danger lies in the (hopefully) assured future of South Africa as a democracy. When the present crop of pragmatic political leaders pass from the scene, their successors will have been raised on a diet of deionization towards Israel and Jews, and are more likely to translate such attitudes into policy.
5. arab oil fueled apartheid
robert whitehill ,   potomac md   (05.30.07)
South Africa's leadership has always had a blind spot for the fact that the apratheid regime had been supplied all of its oil needs by the Arab oil states--Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, Baharain, Oman, and the UAE), Iran both pre-and post revolutionary Iran) and the Islamic state of Brunei. I wrote about this in The New Republic in February of 1984 or 1985 (I'm abroad and don't have the reference in front of me) as well as in Middle East Review. Mr. Mandela is more than aware of these facts--unless he is living on another planet--as is Archbishop Desmond Tutu. These sales were made by a very cynical series of falsified documents and shipping reports.
6. Simple, they are not needed as mediators
Ilan ,   Ariel   (05.30.07)
Trade with South Africa is fine, but don't expect anything more than that. We don't need their advice, approval or aid(s).
7. the jewish resistance is 2,500 years old
before the iraqi invasion of our homeland in 476 BC we were an independent and sovereign country. the resistance continues! judea will rise again
8. Arab slave traders and the QAFR
Nachash Tsefah ,   Tel Aviv   (05.30.07)
To all the comrades who blindly and unconditionally support the Arabs, just remember that not very long ago those same Arabs were trading your ancestors into slavery. It is your Arab brothers who are ethnically cleansing black Sudanese in Darfur. And it is the Arabs who gave you the appelation QAFR, or heathen! Your Arab brothers have you wrapped around their oily, crafty fingers. AMANDLA!
9. #2 Kenneth pretoria
Jerred   (05.30.07)
Dear Kenneth: history teaches us that self deternination is not necessarily the best solution. For example, it is obvious to all that your racist black regime only brought HIV-AIDS, misery, violence and more underdevelopment to the black people of South Africa
10. To Hell with South Africa
So #1 and #2 basicly say its ok for South Africa to support Terrorism. Two Wrongs do not make a right? This is the Moral high ground? Of course its ok for SA to act badly, they give themselves a pass.
11. Not only South Africa. What about Great Britain?
12. No.s 1 & 2
gm ,   south africa   (05.30.07)
I am a South African Jew and i can tell you right now the ANC, COSATU and the Youth League are so misguided by muslim propoganda that they are blinded by what they see. Ronnie Kasrils was born Jewish, but is then only Jewish by default, because he openly admits he doesn't practice as a Jew and South African Jewry is disgraced by his conduct. South Africa needs to learn the history of the region and understand that the Jews were the people displaced from Palestine. We won it back and now the muslim terrorists are angry. Imagine the AWB or Brooderbond now rising up against the ANC government. It is exactly the same situation so look at history without propoganda. Just look at the facts, they are all there. Look at historical records, not muslim newpaper clippings. You are misguided and misinformed.
13. The Truth Hurts, Doesn't It?
Kenneth Mathabane ,   Pretoria, RSA   (05.30.07)
Folks, you can attack me the way you want, but you cannot deny the fact that the establishment of the national home for Jews, in present-day Israel has irrefutable parallels to apartheid. The apartheid leaders also spoke about a 'chosen people' (themselves). In 1961, prime minister Hendrik Verwoerd said that Israel was like South Africa. And you can't erase the many years of military cooperation between Israel and apartheid South Africa - the joint offensive naval force, the missile boats, the Cheetah planes and of course, the nuclear weapons to use against us, the 'natives' (or should I say, the gentiles?). Prime minister Johannes Vorster, who had a declared Nazi past, received a hero's welcome from Israel! Now, you can indulge in all the ad homeniem you want, the truth is that Israel is mistreating the Palestinians so much that all self-respecting people around the world have no choice but to empathize with their plight.
14. To Kenneth and Jerred
Steven Magid ,   South Africa   (05.30.07)
Kenneth, we should all live up to the proud call of our coat of arms which reads "!ke e: /xarra //ke" or "DIVERSE PEOPLE UNITE!" This means that we need to tolerate differing views on things like foreign policy without challenging the patriotism of others or calling for them to be expelled. Unfortunately, Kasrils himself recently questioned the loyalty and patriotism of South African Zionists. To Jerred, your point is disgraceful. The black leadership here replaced a racist white leadership. The black leadership has brought much unity, economic growth and development, housing, and opportunity. Electricity and clean water has been brought to places where it once never existed. To be sure, there are criticisms and failures particularly on the HIV/AIDS issue, but you are as bad as Israel's opponents when you just single out the failures without setting the context around the miracle successes. Proudly South African.
16. There is so much corruption among a lot of NEW SA leaders
Bongani ,   Gauteng   (05.30.07)
that I wouldnt be suprised if SA supported the Earths attempt to escape from the tyranical effect of the gravity of the Sun-as long as someone was prepared to pay a bribe to the Main SA Guys . The point is -As long as the price is right you can get support for anything you like from these corrupt bodies and people in SA .The Arabs are very generous in their courtship of Media ,Organisationsand these Guys have need for their money
17. What is terrorism? no.10
Moses ,   Johannesburg, RSA   (05.30.07)
i am not supporting terrorism because is a word used by people to justify their cruel acts. ANC, APLA, etc, they were terrorits organization but to us were liberators thats people like NO 12 they can criticize our leaders today actually the RSA jews benefited during apartheid a million mor times than even the boers. Kenneth bomb them again I think they have to invite you for a round a table discussion, they will learn a lot from you.
18. To Moses
Steven M   (05.30.07)
Hello Moses, Just because Thatcher and the apartheid regime thought the ANC were terrorists does not make them terrorists. The ANC was born with non violent aspirations and yearnings. They only took up arms about 50 years after they were born. The young Turks then created the armed struggle. But they always refrained from deliberately targetting civilians. That is why they werent terrorists. Mandela himself said many times that the MK were not to harm civilians. After the pretoria bombing in 82 that inadvertantly killed civilians Luthuli rebuked those responsible and said they would be disciplined. The ANC explained that the bomb went off prematurely. When do Hamas rebuke members for harming civilians? When do Hamas or the PLO apologise that a bomb went off prematurely thus killing civilians? The ANC were very different to the Palestinian terror groups of today. The ANC struggle was noble based on the principles of Ubuntu...unity/brotherhood. Their Freedom Charter talks about freedom and rights for all. The various Palestinian terrorist charters speak of destroying Jews (not Israelis)...they speak of Jews being behind all the ills of the world. ANC is not Hamas or PLO and dont betray the nobility of their struggle by making the comparison.
Nochum ,   Johannesburg   (05.30.07)
Perhaps Israel should educate the people of South Africa about the State of Israel - why it exists and what it is about. The facts as the South African public understand it are wrong. Only then can will we see a change in attitude about Israel amongst the South African public. Let us be clear that there is no or very little anti-semitism in South Africa. The Jews live well here
20. Hamas is different to ANC
Mike ,   UK   (05.30.07)
The main difference is that the ANC worked for democracy in SA and not to "wipe South Africa off the map". Hamas and the radical Muslim Jihadists seek to destroy not just Israel but also the West. That is the common thread of all Islamic terror attacks throughout the world - London, Sinai, Moscow, Bali, East Africa, 9/11, Jeruslalem, Madrid, Turkey, Lockerbie and watch out South Africa maybe you are next on their list.
21. South Africa - Anti Israel
POPPY   (05.30.07)
To #1 Why dont you talk about your brothers in Africa???? Who are killing them? the Muslims or the Jews? You are ignorant and have not the right to give your opinion unless you have been to Israel and seen the way in which the Israeli's treat the Muslims. Or how the Muslims treat the Israeli's . Who wants to kill who??? The muslims want to kill every Jew They say it openly. Have you heard of a Jew saying they want to kill every Muslim? Look at the world today. Who are causing the people to be nurotic?? Can you go to Saudi Arabia? NO unless you are a Muslim what about other Muslim countries. Who were the people who were the biggest SLAVE TRADERS IN AFRICA??? THE MUSLIMS. SO GO BACK TO YOUR BOOKS AND READ THE HISTORY OF THE ARABS AND THE MUSLIMS AND THEN YOU CAN TALK.
22. Note a SA characteristic, black or white, Jewish or gentile:
Uzi ,   Haifa   (05.30.07)
Whoever happens to have the floor, behaves as if only he or she can pronounce the absolute truth which overrides any statement or view of others; a little bit like Amir Peretz.
Korem ,   New York, USA   (05.30.07)
Please, for the sake of keeping an open mind, I encourage you to read this article: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=69&x_article=1083 If you skip to the "Israel's links to South Africa" section, you will see some common arguments about close ties between Israel and the apartheid regime refuted. Thank you.
24. SA Jews, heed the writing on the wall and get out ASAP;
Uzi ,   Haifa   (05.30.07)
preferably to Israel. Saying that SA Jews 'live well' is apartheid talk. How can anybody live so well where large masses live so badly and so many people die of 'natural' and unnatural causes every day? Unlike the old apartheid the current one seems sustainable because it is universally lauded. The economy is booming at the macro level while the quality of life of the masses goes from worse to worst.
25. Ignorance breeds hatred. Some facts:
Historian ,   Haifa, Israel   (05.31.07)
1. SA blacks' anti-Israel sentiments came before apartheid "cooperation" - Israel had been part of the boycotters prior 2. The "cooperation" was indirect and accidental - we were developing nuclear capabilities in parallel (not OK, but not pro-abuse: even Tutu admits this) 3. Jews have a historical place in Israel, the Dutch and British had no business in SA 4. Arabs attacked Jews in Israel systematically well before we became a "state" 5. Israel and the Jews have already done more per capita to improve the plight of the downtrodden "darkskinned" than anyone else But I see you are holding us to a higher standard - none of you are crying about the wealthy Saudis having supported apartheid or about not lending a hand during economic recovery, and that says more about how you really see us. And I thank you.
26. SA politic preaching nonsense.
AlbertoGa ,   Houston, USA   (05.31.07)
I went to school in that wonderful place called Cape Town" Le Cap de Bonne esperance" The place has turn into a most corruput society. The ANC better take care of millions dying of AIDS. Please do not pay attentions to those envious people. The way they have improve is only because Jews and other whites are still there. Shalom
27. #26 You're NOT Cape Town Educated
Steven WiIlskin ,   Cape Town, RSA   (05.31.07)
You're lying. You surely can't be the product of Cape Town schools. No. Not with that sort of miserable grammar. I'm sorry... Sounds to me like you're the proud product of the "white" schools of Houston. Yeah...
28. Let Historical Facts Do All the Talking
Kenneth Mathabane ,   Pretoria, RSA   (05.31.07)
"I don't understand this comparison between us and South Africa. What is similar here and there is that both they and we must prevent others from taking us over. Anyone who says that the blacks are oppressed in South Africa is a liar. The blacks here want to gain control of the white minority just like the Arabs here want to gain control over us. And we, too, like the White minority in South Africa, must act to prevent them from taking us over. I was in a gold mine there and I saw what excellent condtions the black workers have. So there is separate elevators for Whites and Blacks, so what? That's the way they like it." -- Raphael Eitan Chief of Staff of the Israeli army during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, speaking in a guest lecture at the School of Law, Tel Aviv University, 1987, quoted in Yediot Ahronot, december, 1987
29. A false identity
Robin ,   Sydney, Australia   (05.31.07)
Proudly South African Jews are fooling themselves into believing that South Africa has a future for them and their children. South Africa is not a rainbow nation as Steven and Michael would have you to believe. The rainbow overshadows a putrid pool. Being an expat South African, it has taken me six years to relinquish this false sense of South African Jewish identity and understand that my wife and daughter sleep much better at night because of it.
30. Blacks exploiting Blacks
South African ,   London England   (05.31.07)
It used to be whites exploiting blacks. Now it's blacks exploiting everyone. A country that is swimming in natural resources of every kind,that can't even feed and house it's own citizens,except for the fatcats that just keep getting fatter. Just look at Kasrils. They should look into their own backyard, starting with Zimbabye. Before they try to sh.t stir in the ME.
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