Jewish Scene
Burg: Israeli fascism result of Shoah trauma
Ynetnews
Published: 11.06.07, 18:04
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62 Talkbacks for this article
31. Avram Burg - Traitor
Spencer ,   Israel   (06.12.07)
Avraham Burg is a disgusting man, a traitor to the Jewish people and to Israel. Despite all his anti Israel feelings he still collects is pensions from the Jewish Agency and the Knesset though, and has a personal driver supplied by the Jewish people. Has he no shame?
32. #20 Analyze this....
Kate. ,   Jerusalem   (06.12.07)
So we are petty? And if Clinton took out an Iranian passport and wrote a book explaining how the US should be dismantled because all Americans are warmonging, violent, gun toting criminals - how would the American talkbacks look? There is nothing neutral in calling an entire nation of people "belligerant and addicted to force". And as a psychiatrist, you should well know that when people are unjustly accused, they generally speak out and defend themselves - even to the point of anger against the false accuser. It's a healthy reaction and I'm glad that so many people are expressing the hurt and betrayal we are feeling right now as a nation.
33. just shocked at this,
Michael Ben Raphael ,   Tel Aviv   (06.12.07)
no other words to say.
34. #10 potential terrorist - uou have a serious social problem;
(06.12.07)
It's called 'serial hatred'. Stay away until you've had proffesional help.
35. The arrogance of psychiatry (20)
sk ,   USA   (06.12.07)
Tell me, Dr. David, on what basis do you make your "diagnosis" of "individuals like these"? Freud required a long series of sessions with each patient. You, however, are evidently more perceptive. "Burg has made a series of statements that are a quite neutral assessment of the situation, and has ventured a theory to explain that situation. His theory is also quite neutral." What, pray tell, does "neutral" mean in this context? Do you always write your diagnoses with such imprecise language? "What is surprising is the small torrent of abuse posted here by a tiny self-selected group of internet readers." What kind of a therapist are you to be "surprised" when some readers object, vehemently, when some way-left, privileged yored calls his former country a site of "growing fascism" and otherwise attacks it? There is nothing surprising when people rejecting a nasty back-stabber. The irony, of course, is that Israel's "trauma" is largely self-inflicted by leftists like Burg who spend their lives "descanting on their deformity" while collecting vast amounts of money from Europeans who hope, foolishly, to appease the Muslims who swarm their country by attacking the Joooos.
36. #20, psychiatrist speaks
Duckdwort ,   Helena Montana   (06.12.07)
I am not comfortable on a plane and if #20 is a psychiatrist, then I'm an astronaut. Number 20's mumbojumbo is a load of crap. As far as Avraham Burg, he is a menace to Israel and a fool and liar to boot. While Israel has its share of flaws, it is a vibrant democracy where the vast majority of people want to leve in peace and go about their lives. The problem is that the morons on the left such as Burg want Israel to be perfect ( a light unto the nations) and when it doesn't live up to their fantasy, they turn on it and libel their country. Israel is less than 60 years old and in that time has maintained a democracy that has allowed disloyal fools such as Burg to speak their nonsense. What other country, faced with an unremitting terror war against it for all of its existence, would be as just as it has been? So nonpsychiatrist, before you babble on with your lies, grow up.
37. Kate #32
David ,   New York   (06.12.07)
1. Most of the talkbacks are not from Israelis. So the people "speaking out" are not the ones being "accused." Another interesting psychological fact. 2. It is interesting that you compare taking a French passport to an Iranian one, since of course there is in reality no similarity whatsoever. What motivates this detachment from reality? 3. As far as I can see from the article, Burg talks about Israeli society as being plagued with violence. He does not say "all Israelis" are anything. How can a wilful and deliberate misreading be a "healthy reaction," as you put it. An interesting case study indeed...
38. to #20
RobertK ,   Jerusalem   (06.12.07)
If you think this is "neutral"-- According to Burg, the book’s central thesis is that due to the many catastrophes it had to endure, Israeli society has been traumatized and has lost the ability to trust either itself, its neighbors or the world. This, he says, is the cause for the rampant “belligerence, growing fascism and surging nationalism” that are plaguing society. --I think you lack either knowledge or, yourself, neutrality on the subject. If Israelis lost their ability to trust, why did they embark on a peace process with a terrorist organization in the early 1990s, giving land, money, weapons, and international legitimacy to the premier terrorist organization of the later 20the century in the belief/hope that it would respond by ending the conflict with Israel and accepting a compromise solution? If fewer Israelis today believe in such experiments (but quite a few of them still do), do you think almost 2000 Israelis dead in terrorist attacks since the experiment began have something to do with lowered trust? Have you, in NYC, after seen a rash of mass-murder bombings of buses, restaurants, and malls lasting almost a decade, followed by incessant rocket attacks on civilian targets? What, dear doctor, is the normal reaction to that--an increase in trust? And if you think Israeli society--despite the siege that has never stopped for a day, a remarkably diverse, vibrant, tolerant democracy whose central wish and yearning, as always, is to be able to live in peace like democratic citizens in more fortunate (so far) parts of the world--if you think this society is beset by "growing fascim," then you youself are either so ignorant of the subject that you shouldn't even post talkbacks about it, or are yourself beset by fascistic sentiments toward Israel.
39. burg
avipraha ,   prague czech republi   (06.12.07)
why is everybody getting upset? he's just another one of Jewish self hater in a long long line of self haters throughout history to try to fit in with the goyim.and guess what Avril we're still here and we still will be long after you be buried in your precious anti semitic french soil.
40. #36 Gobbledegook
mama dyumbo (really) ,   W.Africa   (06.12.07)
41. Ground Meat!
Reuven Brauner ,   Raaana, Israel   (06.12.07)
Just more globs of gehakte fleisch from Boomie Burg.
42. Our trauma is we suffer from too many idiots
jason white ,   afula,israel   (06.12.07)
like burg,livni,peres,peretz,olmert,ect. That we survived so long is a miracle. Burg should know one thing,"empty barrels make the most noise". In other words stupid people spout off without any knowledge.
43. #3 Monique, it's the money
Richard ,   Paris   (06.12.07)
Dear Monique, Mr. Burg's intention is to make to biggest fuzz around his book to increase it's sales. His marketing technique is very professional. He's now a successful businessman. Do you see better now where the profit is ? If you want to punish Burg don't buy his books and stop talking about him. That's his worst scenario.
44. #37 Another limp analysis
Kate ,   Jerusalem   (06.12.07)
From your apparent "analysis" may I hazard a guess that you are neither a psychiatrist NOR a psychologist? So, lets just do this person to person 1. Talkbackers who identify with the State of Israel, or have lived or grown up here WILL take Burgs accusations personally, along with many who consider this their "homeland". 2. Iran is not an enemy state of the US though MANY Iranians believe that the US should be destroyed. France has full diplomatic ties with Israel though many French citizens believe that Israel should be dismantled. But truthfully, it was a random parallel. 3. Burg accuses Israelis (without specifying who) as being belligerant and addicted to force, mistrusting of all others, etc. He does so in his book, and several interviews following publication. This is one article of many published in the past few days. If you do aspire to be a psychologist, may I suggest that you listen closely to the expression of the human heart, rather than attack that expression. And for the record, the vast majority of Israelis (Arab and Jewish) desire peace not war, believe in democracy and fight for equality. Those are facts based on polls and surveys, not personal speculation.
45. #28 I know you have!!!
Dr.J ,   UK.   (06.12.07)
46. Listen to the Obvious.
Walldizo ,   Damas   (06.12.07)
To Ginette, Toronto, Hard to figure out how recklessly some may tend to ignore realities and lock themselves in their imaginary world.Sooner than later they will realize how fragile their walls are, only love and trust in humanity are the true source of security and self redemption. So, who stating this , you or your truma???
47. #20 Psychiatrist - Aren't you the 'rational' one!
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (06.12.07)
People are upset David. And I don't believe that Burg's 'analysis' is neutral! Very few things in politics is neutral. So, please, spare us your psycho babble! Berg's comments have brought out something from deep within us!
48. Richard, you are right!
sellier ,   Lyon, France   (06.12.07)
I agree that Burg is marketing his book. I support your idea: do not buy it, do not talk about it, and forget Burg altogether.
49. Burg, Great piece
Walldizo ,   Damas   (06.12.07)
To 39, Your piece doesn't make a sense, but its fine with me as long as you stay where you are in your cosey Prague. Middle-East can't afford having trumatic people like you.
50. Right on Jasmin #29
RJ ,   Canada   (06.12.07)
Reading the feedback at Ynet provides more evidence for what Burg is saying. Back in Sept 2003 Burg wrote in the Guardian that Israel must shed its illusions and choose between racist oppression and democracy: "The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly."
51. don't give them the advertisement they are looking for
dovdevan ,   ashdod ; israel   (06.12.07)
richard you are right burg is looking for provocation in order to sell his book . there is a great list of israeli personnality that are stabbing us in the back like amos gitai who is ready to take very extreme position to pleased the european market movie !! that kind of people don't deserve the advertisement they are looking for because they are living of this
52. #48 Not right for the times
Kate ,   Jerusalem   (06.12.07)
Of course Burg is marketing his book - but it's NOT right to bury our heads in the sand and ignore this. Burg is not some general citizen. He was a leader of leaders in our nation. If we don't sit up and talk back, those who really are "neutral" towards Israel will have every reason to believe Burg - and change their neutral status. Burgs words are not just a personal attack on Israel but also a political attack. It may be difficult to see from France how terrible an effect that could have on Israel's future - but it is very clear from here.
53. his father turning in his grave
Yohanan   (06.12.07)
a disgysting person that should be outcast and deported out of the Jewish Nation. I fail to understand how such a shmok was born to a great man like Dr Yosef Burg .
54. Jews have sufficient reason to be distrustful
Steve ,   USA   (06.12.07)
All one need do is study world reaction to the Holocaust while it was underway. Read David Wyman's "Abandonment of the Jews," and other fine historical accounts. Look at the way the international community is treating Israel today by and large. Don't tell me this is all about the "occupation." We know better. Here is another example and I quote: “The Magen David Adom (MDA), the Red Star of David, was born 52 years ago. It is the Red Cross, except with a Jewish symbol. Its purpose is to protect life and health and to alleviate human suffering. It serves, without discrimination, the entire Israeli population, including 1.1-million Israeli Arabs, and Palestinian Arabs in need. "The Star of David is the symbol of the Jewish people as well as of Israel. Surrender of its emblem should not be a condition of membership. But its application for membership of the International Federation of the Red Cross was rejected at the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which required all new national aid societies to adopt the Red Cross symbol. "And yet since that time some 25 Red Crescent Societies representing the Muslim world have been admitted to the IFRC which is now called the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Services. " This is an outrage. Why shouldn't we Jews be distrustful?
55. Too bad didn't read Hamas charter; can't just analyze 1 side
poorly researched   (06.12.07)
In order to understand issues such as 'distrust' in a conflict, one can't merely analyze the historical context of one side. One must analyze the historical context of both sides and the CURRENT reality of both sides.
56. Kate, #48
sellier ,   Lyon, France   (06.12.07)
Dear Kate, you should have looked at my post #3: I was claiming that Burg suffers so much that he wants everybody to suffer with him, so that he won't be alone. There is no doubt that his declarations have already been used by antisemites and anti-israeli thugs. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place: either we give him publicity and more thugs will perform their kind of evil actions, or we ignore him, and it won't stop the thugs who already know about him. My conclusion is: let us explain the life of the israelis and give a more exact image of Israel and its predicaments, and not center anything on the thug-helper Avraham Burg. He's been a leader of leaders? Yes. He has a good past, he has a good family, but now he has turned into insignificance, into a stinking and disgusting ploni ben ploni.
57. Can there be any doubt that Burg is right?
David ,   Los Angeles   (06.12.07)
58. Burg's an Osloist & Itnatkutist: What can we learn from him?
Tomer ,   Herzeliyya   (06.12.07)
59. Burg is RIGHT
Izik ,   jerusalem   (06.13.07)
by saying that there is no place where a Jew could live his life out but everywhere OUTSIDE Israel. The Zionist idea was an utopia which passed away years ago. Jews have understood that they are not the centre of the world - the mixed weddings with gentiles, gay parade and flown stream of immigration away from Israel are a GOOD examples of Mr. Burg speech. Bravo, Mr. former Jewish Agency' chief lier!
60. I SEE . . . ISRAELIS ARE JUST IMAGINING EXTERNAL THREATS
harry   (06.15.07)
After seeing what is going on in Gaza today, after seeing what Hamas is willing to do to their co-"nationals", after hearing the Iranian president threaten Israel with destruction, why would Avraham Burg suggest that Israelis are, in a sense, overreacting? That we cannot trust Hamas or Iran is not a psychosis brought on by the Shoah!!! It is the reality of the situation that we cannot trust those who clearly want us dead. Frankly, to trust Syria, Hamas and Iran is to be psychotic and to have the Shoah's imprint of cooperating with your own slaughter.
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