while Idont see you flying off to join the IDF or see you running to your local army recruiting station, it is interesting that when Ehud Barak was prim minister and he said we will have a religious revolution and change the status quo and vis a vis yeshiva students serving that this current intifada blew up in our faces?

Same kind of people. Obscurantism and religion go well together. In Iran, gays are hanged. In Israel, they are ostracized . In Europe, there are laws punishing whoever is ostracizing a "minority". Haredi contribute giving Israel a bad name. Religion does not necessarily change intolerant idiots in tolerant enlighted people. Quite the opposite, and we do have a good example in Israel with these parasites thinking they are entrusted by God on a mission !

Ahh, indeed a most ingenious answer, or rather disingenuous. I made my point you have not made any except sound as if you had done so, words with no meaning except to disparage the ultra orthodox. and why does the free markets (whose worth is denied by the liberals) have anything to do with this argument while democracy as a definition has still not been established? democracy does not mean allowing gayness to do what they want. and liberals are the closest to fascists since the duce himself

In addition to the violence, the other common deminator between the Haredim and Hamas is that they all wear black

No, my dear. You are for being so narrow-minded and stupid.

Do you remember that a time ago you were very angry at me for writing your name mYriam ? why do you call me chaim ? This is not my name . I gave you an explanation for my "error" , can you give one ? A name can't be translated . I was first given a "yiddish" name , after my grandfather , then to register me at the town hall , my father wrote Charles Yes , immorality and modesty have a meaning for me . But not the same as for you i suppose . To be gay , has no relation with immorality in my eyes . You can be "straith" and behave in an immoral way . Modesty is not so related to our discussion . You hear from me when charidim are involved because i expect an other behaviour from them . When i was in Galut [ there were around 5 or 6000 charidim where i lived , from all sorts ] i never heard that they behaved in a violent way , and that's fine . I had even some Charidi friends , one of them a fantastic MAN , a true MENSCH . I expect those people to be more tolerant , ve'ahvta et re'echa kamocha has to be their "leitmotiv" . Those violent and hatefull people are maybe not reflecting the whole religious community , but you do'nt hear voices there against this violence . From the left i have'nt such expectations , there are also anarchist between them , who were always in the forefront of violent clashes . In the whole world . Regarding my religious feeling . It's not only related to the Shoa [ i've never received a satisfactory answer for this ] Religious have maybe an explanation , a believing person can accept , a secular as i not . I can't believe that the world was created in six days , a nice story 3000 years ago , but no more acceptable in the 21th century . I can't believe that this happened less than 6000 years ago . I can't believe in heaven , ressurrection when the mashiach will come , nor in the maschiach of course . What i believe ? Much of the HISTORICAL side of the Tanach , many facts can and have been proved to be true . The explanations of how this happened , and i can accept , can be different of the religious ones . Miriam , i do'nt think that i will ever become religious , for me it's certainly not a return . I was never religious , made Bar Mitzwa of course , gave a good Jewish education to my children [ 15 years from kindergarten till age 18 ] and made ALYAH , because this country is HISTORICALLY mine .

regarding brutality . Last night there were SEVEN police officers hurt , ONE charidi . So who's violent ?

i'm not only proclaiming to be Jewish , I AM . I know that there was violence in the Tanach , look how many chapter in Yehoshua ends . But this was more than 3000 years ago , and NOT directed against other JEWS , this was a conquest war . Here we have GOOD Israelis who want to parade PEACEFULLY in THEIR Capital , and people as you oppose them hatefully and violently . Look also at my answer to Miriam for other issues , if published

Have the Charidim fought in Israel's wars ? maybe some exeptions did it . Have the gays fought in Israel's wars , YES , also with some exeptions . So to have many children do not mean you will protect the State .

Please tell us on what you base your statement. Just remember that some in this day and age and in days not so long past, said much the same about the Jews. May I ask you who gave YOU the right to judge? If He who "gave us the Torah" was so enraged by Homosexuality that He called it an "abomination" why did He call for the death penalty for other transgressions like adultery? Are you going to put all the adulterers to death too? The true "abomination" is the sowing of hatred. That, Eitan, is what caused the death 6,000,000 Jews and is the basis for the hatred against Israel and the Jewish People today. So you don’t like Gays. OK. But live and let live might be a better and more tolerant way to look at things. What I call a disgrace is Jew persecuting Jew. Maybe that’s right in your book of rules? By the way Eitan, capitalization on the Internet is shouting. There is no need to YELL!

I totally agree that this is a good thing - the Charedi and expressing their thoughts whilst the Gay community are also.. but one thing I am always astonished by is the means that the Charedi use in order to express themselves.. all very good to have a rally but a violent one is not any good! The Charedi have no means of entertainment other than time in yeshiva - so i guess a bit of a clash with the police is the only way to experience fun, perhaps? That said some Charedis make it out for a night of gay fun in the gay clubs.. so yes.. protest but what about some respect for those of your brothers stuck in the closet?

DUMP YOUR TRASH SOMEWHERE ELSE ! EG. TRY IN VATICAN FIRST..

No , Yeroushalaim [ the correct name for us ] is not less "holier" [ for the religious ] , but is OUR Capital , the Capital of all Israelis , Gays included . This is not the case for those other names you give .

I've already answered one talk-back on this subject and I repeat - the Hareidi kids are not exactly angels thanks to their parents, who go setting light to garbage cans etc. I was visiting for Shabbat in Bet Shemesh (I'm secular) and at the end of Shabbat, walking to my bus stop to go home, were a bunch of small kids who blocked off a street with a shopping cart and crate and branches. Each time, a driver had to get out, remove the obstacles and continue. This happened about 3 or 4 times until one of the kids again put back the obstacles and then caught fire to the branches!!! There was NO adult supervision and NO parents to control their kids because they're the ones they learn it from! These kids don't even know why they're doing this, only that they're trying to be like their parents, so they must do the same thing to make mommy and daddy proud of them!!! Why are their parents not sitting in their homes, with their kids, learning Torah and being constructive instead of destructive. I can tell you now that this next generation is going to be that much more fierce, if they're already starting at such young ages. They are so brain-washed. There are going to be unfortunate mis-haps if this continues. This makes the gay parade seem cheerful compared to the implications the Hareidim are causing. The evil is landing on their kids who are now committing evil acts. The gay parade isn't going to hurt anyone and it's not going to cause long term damage. They're free-spirited people who just want to be accepted every now and then. This Hareidi situation is turning ugly and if I didn't want to become religious before my Shabbat in Bet-Shemesh - I know I don't want to be religious now! It's safer not to!

and two boys-teenagers. I know for sure that at least the girl did not participate in the demonstration. She simply watched the gathering with curiosity and was attacked and badly beaten by the police officers. Why the mass media, including YNet, reports only on police injuries and gives no word of their cruelty towards innocent children?

Look - I don't want anyone innocent to get hurt at all but how can they not when all this commotion is going on? That 13 year old should have been protected elsewhere and not be allowed to watch such a degrading situation amongst adults who are meant to be setting the good and mature examples. If the gay parade happens peacefully - no-one will get hurt. If the gay parade happens with violent opposition then a whole lot more are going to get hurt. What's the better alternative?

it has started "raining" again in the North yesterday Fresh "rain" from Syria G-d is angry Will more rain be needed to cause the parade to be cancelled again, like last summer ??

first they should clean up their own house

If some secular kids to the wrong thing does that mean all secular parents are bad and not watching their children and are also doing similar things? I've been living in what would be called a "heirdi" community in the center of North Jerusalem for 17 years and never once saw anyone throw a rock on Shabbat. A few bad apples who do that ruin the reputation of the tens of thousands who are absolutely against throwing rocks or anything at people for driving at Shabbat. By the way I met a man in his 50s at a shul who told me his story how he became religious. He was a bus driver first for secular kids and then for religious kids (he said both groups were same age- tichon high school kids) in Jerusalem. Seeing the difference between how the two groups behaved, dressed etc was the thing which made him (and his wife and kids followed) become religious- he said one thing led to another but that was the main thing for him... David Neil.

Gay parade in Jerusalem is a clear provocation aimed at its citizens. Their vast majority simply do not want to see this disgusting show in their city, in front of their houses and before their children's eyes. If the gays mean that Jerusalem is their capital they should also pay a visit to the Eastern (Arab) part of the united city. Why not? Who will answer?

Miriam i noticed that your spending alot of time on talk back, how is it that you find so much time to devote to you pc with 12 or 14 litle ones runing around? or are they the ones throwing stones. Further more you facts about 90% keeping kosher are a pure fantasy, the realty is more like 50%, i sudjest you keep your kids in school and prepare them for the Army that would much more productice. Oh and by the way disagreeing with your view is not disagreeing with G-D, dont give you and your kind that much credit.

No offense, but I can't understand you, and I'm not going to fish around for what you are trying to say. The meaning of my words should be plain. By the way, I am no liberal, and I happen to like free markets. Even most liberals (at least in the US) are not anti-capitalism: they just emphasize non-market corrections for market failures.

How do you know that the majority of Jerusallem"s citizens do'nt what this parade ? where and when was a poll made ? Probably only wishfull thinking . Secondly , it's not a provocation , would they go into Mea Shearim , you would be right . But they do'nt go there . They also do'nt want to provocate the non Jewish citizens by going to the Eastern part of the town . And do you walk around in this part of our Capital ? Not many [ unarmed ] Israeli Jews do it . So you had an answer

Are you also such a stupid girl as this ex Sao paolo Keren ? the vatican is not Israel's Capital , as far as is known , or are you also such an ignorant as this Keren .

That act has been judged as an abomination by Hashem. If they continue in that act, they eventually run up against that judgement. If they turn from commiting that act, Hashem, as always, will have mercy on them. His mercy is from everlasting to everlasting, and it is fresh and new everyday. Life is but a vapor. Soon it will be gone. Better to live it by what Hashem says and not by what the goiyims say.