WOW , Reuben , what a fantastic argument you brought here , you are great ! Poor guy , if this is all you can say , better shut up .

I have friends and acquaintances who are gay and perhaps I know others who are not open about their orientation. They have and should have civil rights as do heterosexuals. I believe that when you live in a democracy, you must be prepared and willing to tolerate differences no matter how much you may personally disagree with the opinions of others so long as they obey the law. While this behavior may be offensive to this religious group, they broke the law, hurt others and should be prosecuted. The children who were present should not have been there to be injured-their parents are the responsible, not the police, for what utimately happened. One could have guessed this outcome from people who were so fired up. I do agree with some here who expressed the view that holding hands, kissing one another etc is rubbing one's nose in it and not helpful under the totally negative atmosphere that I have read ifrom the various news stories. However, it is my understanding that if heterosexuals behaved in the same manner, it would have been seen as equally offensive to these same people so I don't really understand what the big deal is. If these people are so offended, they should simply stay home, close the curtains and wait it out or hold a peaceful counter parade. In the states, we have had plenty of parades, protests etc that are offenseive to me, for example the American Nazis and White Supremists who have been able to hold their parades too. I might mention that some of these parades and protests were purposely carried out in communities where their offensive beliefs would have the greatest effect, such as communities with large Jewish or Black residents. But you cannot change the rules/premises of democracies just because you disagree with another group. I don't think the term democracy would be used to describe the type of government that would then exist.

and without hope in this world. I have many of your TB's. You spend so much time defending your non-belief in Hashem. And that is your right, and I would never take that right away from you, But as you get into the twilight of your years, @ some point death has to become a reality to you. And when your spirit man leaves your body it will either go and live with Hashem and father Avraham, or it will go to Sheol. Like it or not, that's the way it is.Howhappythsight of Hashem are those who believe and leave this world in their final rest. We are taught that it was pride that was satans downfall. He wanted to set his throne above the most high. He chose to disregard Hashem too. He wanted to be his own ruler. It turned out to be his undoing, and downfall. And judgement was pronounced on him and those who follow him. That is a binding judgement that still stands today. Charles, it is feaful thing to fall into the hads of a Living G-D. But that is your choice to make. I'm not condemning or judging you for what you believe, but as we all know, our beliefs and words carry consequenes that will last forever. Be good to yourself. Don't keep rejecting Hashem. He has told us that "He that is often reproved and stiffens his neck, shall be cut off(from Hashem and his covenant promises) and that without remedy.(There will be no way back to him, it will be to late.) I just thought some kind words might help you instead of harsh judgemental words you have been receiving. Shalom.

schitzophrantic. If he called it an abomination then, you can rest assured he has not changed his mind about it today, If he did, he would owe the sinful victims of those 2 cities a huge apology. And trust me my friend, that is one apology they will NEVER get.

Did you hear god's voice ? i not . I was opening the window , maybe , if his voice comes from heaven , this would help , but no , nothing . Can you give me his phone number [ a 1800 is preferable ] , or his website ? But are you sure it was his voice ? how do he sounds ? a bass or a tenor ? If you have heard him , fine for you , maybe ha do'nt wants to talk to me ? Or most likely , there is no god .

Your answer is wrong. You write that the gays "don't want to provoke the non-Jewish citizens by going to the Eastern part of the town" (you see, I corrected your grammar mistakes). So it's not nice to provoke the non-Jewish citizens. And to provoke the Jews is permitted?! Anyway, the gays should not be afraid to go to the Arab streets for they will be guarded by 7000 policemen (I figure 30-40 policemen per each gay). Personally I go to the Old City without any police escort. Now you doubt that the majority of the Jerusalem citizens are against the parade. "Where and when was a poll made?" - you ask. The polls were not conducted for the very simple reason that their result is clear beforehand. Enough to say that the overwhelming majority of the City Council members, the representatives of the population, voted against the parade. All the Arabs (third of the population) and all the religious and traditional Jews (not only Charedim who make also a third of the city population or even more) are opposed to the parade. Now you have two thirds. Add to them the majority of the Russians and many secular Israelis. That's my correct reply to your wishful thinking. Any more questions?

heard his voice. Ish & Isha were the first.. Kayin is the 2nd. Enosh is another. Noach was another and he built the ark when there never was rain on the earth. He had to have heard the voice of Hashem. He and his famiy were the only ones who survived. Then Adonai spoke the Avram and told him to get OUT of the land of Haran. Then there was Malki-Tzedek king of Shalem who was the cohen of EL 'ELYON who blessed Avram, and this is just in the first 14 lessons of the B'resheet. Then in Sh'mot Adonai speaks to Moshe. The in the first pages of Y'hoshua Adonai speaks to Y'hoshua and encourages him to be strong and be bold and to follow the Torah. Let's move on to Sh'mu'el where Hasem speaks to him as a young boy and then throughout his life as a great prophet of Israel. Then we have writings of Adonai talking to kings in M'lakhim Alef, and in M'lakhim Bet. How about when Adonai spoke to Yesha 'Yahu, or to Yirmeyahu, or to Yechezk'el,or to Iyov? And how about Z'kharyah, or my favorite, King David? And let's not forget the book of Mal'akhi. To hear the voice of Hashem you never will. Why? You have chosen not to believe so you are not one of his to hear his voice. The voice of Hashem doesn't come to your outer ears, it comes to your inner ears, or your heart. Hashem has said that he would hiss for those who are his. He is always talking to you charles, but you will never hear as long as you choose not to believe. You have set your heart as a stone against him. I don't fault you for that for that is your choice. But don't be critical or envious of us who choose to listen and obey. I mean you no malice my friend. But we have before us so great a cloud of witnesses. If you cannot believe from examples in our Holy Books, well.......if you need proof of Hashems existance read the 38 & 39 chapters of Yechezk'el. It is happening right before your eyes in the land that your'e living. That shoud be proof enough. A life without believing in Hashem can only be a life of to hu va bohu. I wish you well charles. I really do.

Thank you for your kind words , not generally used by the extreme religious [ they only did widden the gap between them and seculars ] As you answered to my # 38 , you know why i can't believe , so i have'nt to repeat it . You only give me "religious" arguments , those i , as a secular , can't accept . They can't convince me . I do not believe in hell , nor in gan eden , so for me death is death . End , as in a picture , or a book . Nothing afterwards . There is no possibility i think , for a religious to convince a secular , or a secular to convince a religious . You maybe have read this history of a bus driver here , who became religious after he had seen the behaviour of religious children compared to seculars [ a tb seen today ] . This was probably a very weak person , who was looking after something . You know certainly that some persons need someone or something to direct their life . I don't feel the need . I do not need religious , nor civil , laws to [ try as much as possible ] behave correctly . I'm tolerant toward tolerant people , rude against rude , and so on . I think , that you have to know your people's story , about the great men of our people , to know your people's language , and to live in your HOMELAND . That's for me the meaning of being a good , non religious , Israeli JEW . Shalom Lecha

Please see #137 on http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3294083,00.html jan, are you capable of saying anything that I could not anticipate before you say it? In other words, are capable of novelty?

How many secular but believing Jews strive to become more like the Haredim? In other words, does the Haredi model draw outsiders to it or repel them? You know the answer, and that shows that the Haredi model is deficient to the utmost degree.

I would like to explain something to you regarding the ultra orthodox Jew and his regard for democracy. Our sages of yore taught that " when in a strange country, the law of the land applies." Israel is not a strange or foreign country and as far as they are concerned the law of the land is the law handed down to Moses by God on mount Sinai. No interpretations, no deviations and no disobedience, hence no democracy. It is as simple as that. In Israel God's law comes first, no matter by what means. They are therefor not capable of showing tolerance to something which God's law states is an abomination.

There's a cancer spreading throughout the world. It's called self righteousness. It's become malignant. Everyone who thinks they know what God wants from us. Hows do you know? Did God talk to you?

I appreciate your information re Ultra Orthodox beliefs. It is very sad that people are stuck back in the days when humans were instinctive and concrete, not intellectual or independant and human knowledge was so limited, apparently in this case to a few people who had visions that required no proof just a strong personality and perhaps a big mouth. How much influence do these people carry in Israel? I have heard about separate buses or sections for women, does that really happen in this day? These beliefs and the attempt to make everyone live by them is so foreign to me. The Jewish people I know here are so different. They live by their own morality but do not attempt to impose this on others. I have known and respected Orthodox Jews who live by standards I do not, for example the food thing. But when you go to dinner at their home, nothing seems any different to me. I guess this is what perpetuates your strong bias against religion.

Freedom is the highest Ideal to which man can aspire. Jews sought freedom from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Russians. If they did not gain their freedom, they looked to other pastures, they went to the lands of the free, America, England France and eventually their own place in the sun, Israel. It is ironic therefor that in Israel there are certain elements who do not give freedom to others. Yes, these people have influence, political influence, they are a minority but they have control over certain aspects of life. Yes, ashamed as I am, I have to admit that there are, in certain areas, "women free buses" and "women only stores". It is very sad and invokes memories of Alabama circa 1960.

Yes, it is the impostion, especially by violent means and political manipulation, that causes me to be disdainful towards the orthodox Jews in Israel, known as "haredim". A few months ago two Rabbis from an ultra orthodox sect made a trip from Tel Aviv to NY. Two Rabbis and a couple of aides. They paid for the whole first class cabin on a 747 in order that no "women" should occupy seats, that it should be cordoned off from the other sections and they stipulated that no female stewardesses be in attendance. You want me to relate to such madness ? El Al is a commercial entity and as such can do as it pleases. in fact it was a good business deal. The Rabbis are free and can do as they please, especially with their money. But I still have no other word but madness for this kind of attitude to life.

Jan , you give me written examples . This is not serious , not a serious proof for a secular . Thanks anyway for your long tb

No they do not provoke with their parade that is NOT taking place in the religious part of THEIR Capital . Do'nt forget , Yeroushalaim is the capital of all the Israelis , gays included .They won't go to religious neighborhoods as i wrote , read correctly . Of course for you , their presence is already a provocation , for me not . Nobody can say something about ideas of people , you have to poll them . Only then can you say that a majority wants or not . If you are so sure of the result , you can ask a polling institute to have one made .

Orthodox people abroad do'nt impose their way of life on others , you wrote . They can't impose their way of life there , they have'nt the power to do it . But some were yelling at me because i drove my car on Shabbat . I lived abroad for many years , there were many very orthodox there , so i know something about them . Yes , there are busses with separate seats for women and men .

I agree the Haredi have the right to protest the Gay rights parade, but they have the right to peaceful protests,like the kinds that both Martin Luther King and Gandi lead all those years ago! There is no excuse for riots, which endanger public safety( they are acting like hose that rioted in Watts inLa all those years ago). Peaceful protest yes,violence no, the Haredi leaders should be ashamed of themselves for resorting to violence that threatens public safety. You get much more with peaceful protests like Kig and Gandi lead then you do with violence!

So good, Charles. I am religious and you are secular. That's why I am speaking with you not in terms of the Torah teachings that guide me life and outlook, but rather from the point of view of the simple common sense and human decency Our argument has come to one subject: you write that the parade would take place in a non-religious part of Jerusalem. But there is no such a part. All neighbourhoods of the city are either religious or mixed. For the gays to march in the the center of the city (mixed part) that includes the streets King George and Yaffo (it's only a ten minutes walk from Meah Shearim!) means to insult a large percentage, may be more than a half, of the local population. Isn't it enough to cancel the march or transfer it to another place? And another thing, Charles. Have you ever seen such a gathering with your own eyes? I have, unfortunately. Believe me, this is a very disgusting sight that no sane, cultured person with a normal psychics would accept.

Thank you both for your information, it is incredulous to me that women are treated so second class in Israel, are there no laws to prevent this discrimination? Even when women were discriminated here it never got to what you have described. Usually just less pay for same work and an inability to be independant. Men here justified their treatment of women with a putting them on a pedestal type thing. Boring and stupid. Do these women ever rebel against this treatment?

As far as i known to me , they do'nt come in the vicinity of Yafo and King Georges . I've told you that if they were coming in Mea Shearim , it would be a provocation . The "open House" organisers of this parade said that they want those parading to show restraint in their clothing and behaviour , so not such extravagant parade . I also think that many non gays will also join this parade to show their support for FREEDOM for all in our Capital .

I always answer accusations of wrongdoing . This for my name . On the other issues you probably have'nt any answer , you probably know that i'm right , but do not want to concede it , so you stay silent . Sad mentality PS don't tell me you had no time , you wrote other tb's .

miriam democracy is only 51% of the whole.