Well, hon, u never know what will be, if required they may well serve, and do it with vigour! The point is that t(your?) secular govt is too corrupt to change the law, because it sees its own power agenda as more important than principle. The orthodox are not doing anythign illegal, the Law allows the to dodge the draft - get it?

Yes, a National Secular Revolution is needed, like the one that Ataturk performed in neighbour Turkey. The only was is to battle, a Kulturkampf like the one Bismark engaged against backward Catholicism. We have to go back to the original vision of Herzl, fight religious Judaism, and achieve nation-building (a new Hebrew nation, as against the traditional Jewish communities of the Diaspora).

with people like you - "secular still adhere to *some* Jewish observances & beliefs" in another few years, you'll only find Judaism in museums.

With Moshe Feiglin as PM, someone who doesn't believe in religious or secular but just Jewish, some doing more some doing less (most so-called "secular" Israeli's do a brit-milah), the worry about the rift between the secular and the religious will (please G-d) begin to dissipate as there will only be JEWISH!! Go Moshe Go!!!!!!

Hi Terry, I totally agree with you. Fortunately, there are many people who keep mitzvot, shabbat and kashrut, but they don't go around wearing "uniforms" and don't live in "ghettos" within the country. The hope lies with those who identify with being JEWISH AND ISRAELI. Nothing more, nothing less, in my opinion.

Not doing anything illegal? You are kidding of course. What about forging papers, stealing money and sponging off the tax payers and now there are brothels in Jerusalem, run by Haredim - what a pure bunch of god lovers they are.............NOT! They make me puke, I hate them.

where the bearded wonders should be, in a museum.

I agree with all you say, the sooner the better. Some of these Haredim should actually be deprived of their citizenship or right of residence. I mean by that the extreme groups such as NK who are anti State, and in fact act against the State, sometimes in a treacherous manor. You used the term " traditional communities of the Diaspora". There is nothing that connected these communities to traditional Judaism. Worshipping a "Rebbe" and elevating him to the level of a demi god is in no way reminiscent of traditional Judaism. Nowhere in our tradition or scriptures does it say that one should dress in a long black coat and a funny fur hat, or for that matter that the head should be covered at all.

their will on the minority secular? I think they will give them nonobservant sections in restaurants and malls.

You paint a picture that depicts the orthodox as useless. Many do serve in the forces and the numbers are increasing. The orthodox would defend their country regardless of shabbat or yomtov because of pikuach nefesh. Israel should be proud and would be much respected if the state were to adhere to jewish traditions as opposed to trying to obliterate them. The present growth in materialism and lack of observance within the population is having the tendency of creating an ugly side to the average Israeli. Just ask any visitor to Israel!

Israel is a secular false democracy, whose government is totally detached from the will of the people.

the future is easy to predict. the haredim numbers will keep going up. their costs to society will be: - lower quality education; - defense budget cuts; - more poverty; Hundreds of secular jews will leave the country. They will not serve the army. Secular kids will refrain from fighting a war "that is not theirs". So the IDF will have trouble to keep its rank running. They will start chasing dodgers. The elites will protect their kids, so the ethiopians will be the first to be chased. Safe at their yeshivas, our haredim will not learn how to fight, having no chance to fight the muhajedim trained on the surrounding countries. A war will break out. The haredim will lose. The start of a new Diaspora. Few ultra-orthodox will be left alive. Their role as servants is to write the story. They will lie. They will say the secular Israelis refused to obey G'd's commandments and were punished. Do not forget my brothers. It was a Cohen Gadol and their kings that invited the Romans to the kingdom of Israel. Do not forget that it was religious clashs that sparked the destruction of the second temple!

"Of course Torah is not Shakespear- it is what defined us, kept us through the ages, guides us to live morally and grow spiritually and closer to G-d. In religious communities there is far less crime of every type- and much stronger family life and spiritual pursuits not exclusively physical ones. " makes sense! but can you explain why from time to time haredim use mezuzot to smuggle diamonds?

This article and author are a joke. First off secular society is made up of many god fearing people who define themselves as tradional and do not hate the religious. Secondly, democracy is about determining laws based on represetative government where the majority will is enforced. Third there are plenty of secular people who do not believe in the State and draft dodge. Fourth, his statement "about a sixth of Knesset members come from political movements that strive to forfeit the people's sovereignty and to transfer the regime to the hands of a religious council" forgets the % of MKs on the center and the entire left wants to forfeit our soverignty to the PLO.

Jewish state?"

who cares who becomes the majority. the only thing is that the majority, whoever it is, has to a) fight in the army b) work not because of any moral obligation but because of simple economic and military/political survival...otherwise, when they become the majority, who will defend them and put food on their tables?

Answer to your question. The Good Lord of course.

However, it is the exact opposite of the revolution the seculars whine for. Terry (28), I agree. However, I struggle with a term that is inclusive of all those you've described as "traditional Judaism & from the majority of the Jewish people... [plus] many other religious Jews & many others, who while not strictly observant, are still traditional." Many of these are uncomfortable with, and don't deserve to be called, "secular." Yet, "traditional" equates to the Hebrew "Masorti," which has unfortunate non-Orthodox associations rejected by many in this group. Nonetheless, most of these you described, while not consistently observant, follow Orthodox Halakhah when they do observe. "Judaic" is the only term I can think of that can be used to describe this group, who reflect varying degrees of observance and, therefore, don't qualify as Orthodox. Having clarified this definition, when I look around I see a huge majority of "Judaic" Jews who desire a realistic and modern -- i.e. logical -- vision of keeping Torah; in contrast to small minorities at the two extremes who either pursue superstitious fables or pseudo-scientific misojudaism. Since few true Ultra-Orthodox post here, the tiniest extreme is also the loudest, most vociferous, bellicose and hateful: the misojudaic seculars. This article, and the desperate whining, pleading and begging of many of the misojudaic secular tbers, signals that the revolution is well under way and going fantastically. We're well on our way to becoming a modern, logical and scientific, yet Judaic and Torah-centered, state. Barukh ha-Sheim! Misojudaic seculars: emigrate to one of the many western secular democracies. Bye-bye. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Yom Shishi in its on-line counterpart is a disservice to Jewish readers and a disgrace to Israel. Even ha-Aretz publishes candlelighting times on Yom Shishi. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

of Divine in nature. The ultra-Orthodox do not represent Torah, nor are they the gatekeepers. Interestingly Rav Kaduri stated that the secular will accept the Mashiakh more easily then the religious. That should be comforting to the secular and very disturbing to the ultra-Orthodox. Daily we see Israel going down hill, sadly this is supposed to happen to the point when we all cry out to haShem for the answer. It does not lie in men, polititions or man made mitzvot (I did not say Torah mitvot, huge difference here). Its hard to love the unloveable but do the best we can in these coming day's, we are in for a rough ride as the train cannot be stopped now. This is why maybe many writtings suggest it is better not to be alive during the redemption. I tend to agree, but we are here, let's do our best.

The definition of "parasite" is one who does not support himself but rather lives on the account of others. Unfortunately, this is exactly how most of young ultra orthodox people in Israel have been living. They are draft dodgers, they do not want to work and their livelihood is provided by the government (from my income tax). Do you have a better and more appropriate definition for such people? By the way, I grew up in a religious family and I do support the idea that only their genius ones will be allowed to study Torah and be exempted from military service. However, it turned out that tens of thousands are taking advantage of this situation and living like parasites.

I have come to learn that Yaron London hates and fears everyone and everything that is different from him. The only think he fears more than a hareidi "takeover" is the rise of the national religious community which seeks to infuse society with Jewish values while maintaining a democratic system of government. If it don't think like him, he seeks to destroy it.

First I greatly object to your using the term Orthodox, when in fact the problem you refer to is a product of Haredim only. Last I checked, the merely Orthodox are huge contributors to Israel through working, paying taxes and being a disproportionate number of the officers and NCOs of the IDF. If you wish a diatribe, at least direct it at ther right people.

the kind of democracy that kills the prime minister isn't?

they wanna make this country into bloody IRAN!!!! Unbelievable.

Secular Jews don't have many kids and would have become a minority if not for the datim. So, just say "thank you".

contrary to what many (secular) people contend, israel would be far better able to defend itself with more orthodox. the thing that has been limiting israel's ability to defend itself has not been how many soldiers it has, but how willing its populace is to destroy their enemy. hundreds of soldiers are used to avoid "innocent" palestinians from being killed when one good bomb would do the job. haredim would make the perfect populace. they do not have bleeding hearts. the national religious will do the actual fighting. the haredim will support them in the government

Many charidim work , you wrote . But if many work , explain why the two poorest Jewish towns , are those with a great % of charidim , Yeroushalaim and Bne Brak . Over 20 % of officers wear a Kippa , i won't discuss the number , but wearing a kippa makes it a charidi ?

Very well said - unfortunately the bearded leadersof these people of the past now sit as MK`s where their greed abounds at the expence of the mass of our population.