Mr. London is in favor of Democracy as long as it is his democracy: a democracy fighting anyone who disagrees with him in cultural issues. If Israel needs a "defensive democracy" at all, it is a defense against the people who have a strong personal and/or national motive for doing away with a Jewish State and making the State of Israel into the State of all its citizens. The greatest danger to Israel after military threats is subversion of the Jewish element of Israel's raison d'etre! Many dictators called for "defwensive democracy:" Mr. London also has on occasion derided Senator McCarthy's "defence" of the USA in the '60s. Mr. London would do better using his intelligence for thinking constructively, than using his feeling for writing destructively.

Doesn't that bother you at all? Leave the Orthodox alone. While the seculars are having fewer children and abortions, the Othodox are making new Jewish babies. So what if they are not popular right now. Some day the Orthodox civic attitude will evolve. And they are Jews. You should be more concerned with the Arab birth rate. Have you done the math? And your last paragraph, where you fear the end of multiculturalism, if by that you mean the the end to the educational policies such as validating the concept of Naqbah, for example, I say good riddance. And I could add a few other examples but I want my TB to pass the moderator. It's the seculars, by the way, who are imposing a single culture. A culture of self-hate and surrender.

the reason why sharon "sicked" the army on religious zionist was precisely to break their spirit and to make them look like enemies of the state to the general populace. he could have used just police, he chose the army in order to "get at them". don't let the like of them get to you: rak chazak veamatz

the oft repeated statement that a country run by haredim will be poverty stricken is not correct. remember, haredim in the united states run businesses are actually quite wealthy. the main reason haredim are poor in israel is because a typical small business owner does not make money in israel, you make money from getting a secular education and a solid paying job. that dynamic is likely to change (with the changing demographics) and the country will become a real free market where these small business owners leave the salaried employees in the dust.

It was the ultra-secular Knesset that votes overwhelmingly to extend the Tal Law in order to have a boogey man to complain about. The Nahal Chareidi is doing a fine job and should be increased, then afterwards they gain the confidence they need to go into business and professions.

Democracy in Israel will not “come to an end” because of orthodox Jews as the author of this article speculates citing the Tal Law as part of the etiology involved; but democracy in this country is already terribly limited if existent at all, in the way that term is used in the western world, because of the behavior of the leading political parties, especially Mapai/Labor, over the years. Irrespective of which party is democratically elected by the people and hopefully for the people, Israel is sadly ‘governed’ by the wealthy, Ashkenazi, Mapai and so-called ‘leftist’ elite which is well-represented at senior levels in the police, courts, military, internal security service, universities and media generously supported by the arts as the author must be well aware of. The author of this article must certainly understand, for example, that the Tal Law was passed by secular parties (for narrow political reasons with little or no connection with true democratic values). This author must also know that the present Prime Minister of the State of Israel is not an orthodox Jew; and he is far from exemplifying solid democratic values based on his contribution to creating a political party that was initially a- democratically created by the former PM together with the present President of Israel which was not elected by the people or for the people, a person who is consistently attacking the State Comptroller, Supreme Court and other important symbols, foundations and institutions of democracy, and a political ‘leader’ who has been and is presently being investigated for corruption, misuse of power and other criminal behavior. Perhaps the author was thinking about a different and more idiosyncratic definition of democracy.

So don't apologize for me. Do you hope that the Arab majority is going to be democratic, tolerant of Jewish values, etc.,etc? If it came to that choice, I'd rather live in a rabbinistan than under the Taliban. At least they respect human life. Your statement that the Orthodox are more dangerous than your neighbors is anything but a "cogent" argument. The Orthodox don't want to kill you! That hatred of the Orthodox has crossed the line and it's now something pathological. Just leave them alone. Don't support them economically if you dont' want to, but stop the hatred. And these words are from a very secular Jew.

The National religious will do the actual fighting , the charidim will defend them in the government , You wrote . Nice , the charidim will sit safely in their homes , living on others money , while the national religious will defend them . How do you call such people ? i call them parasytes

who democratically vote with their feet. About a million of them since the founding of the state. Had they stayed, would this be an issue? There's plenty of blame to spread around.

B"H The dichotomy between democracy and political survival has a balance. This author would rather have a democracy but not count all the votes! In a Democracy, the orthodox are not dhimis. The orthodox are not settlers. The orthodox Jews are full citizens with a vote that actually counts. The longer the secular population delays in sharing the leadership burden properly with the orthodox, the more radical the change. As a secular person, it would make sense to vote for Mr. Feiglin to make the orthodox take the burden for their population immediately instead of delaying it. That way the secular can continue to provide a valuable role.

B"H Dear Mr. Yaron London, The only reason the world exists is because Jews study the Torah. The Jews used to have a special living situation. One tribe Yissaschar would sit in their tents and learn Torah and the other, Zebulun, would go to the seas and earn a living. Your ancestors were not in love with 'democracy.' They were smarter, healthier and lived longer than you or I. They loved the Torah life-a theocracy. King Solomon had a period of 40 years of peace and tranquility. How many countries exhibit that? Get thyself to a Yeshiva. You need some basic education. Like challenges? Do you dare to try? Be open minded, after all, you claim to be 'modern' and 'democratic, that means being open-minded', no? Take the challenge. Love to hear from you afterwards. Shal-m, and a blessing!

"...So what should be done...?" Professor Paul Eidelberg What should REALLY be done? GO OUT AND TEACH TORAH TO JEWS! I DO IT ALL THE TIME AND ALSO TEACH THE G-DLY 7 NOAHIDE LAWS TO NON-JEWS

I say accept the inevitable, Rav Ovadia or Rav Elyshaiv , one for President and one for head of the Suprme Court. They are better then anything these two institutations have had in the past. Further good news, at least all the Othordox/Haradi/Mizrahi-traditional strands are above the average birth rate scale so the future's secured. And Sassoon in 2 and Dr Bar-On in 66 have presented the truth and the reality beautifully. Come on Shai and Sagy, join the winning side.

everything u mention is done by seculars too, thats why half the govt is under investigation. brothels - thats a new one, where did hear about that? hate them or not, its the secular govt that extended the Tal law. They could easily cut the funds and draft the yeshiva boyz, so why dont they?

Mr. London's most ironic and telling fear is that secular retreat insures "the destruction of their homes" in the near future ! And just who has been destroying whose homes lately---and to support what VALUES ? Does Mr London have reason to believe the Torah contains a mandate to destroy the homes of himself and colleagues? And based on what does Mr London have such confidence that HIS values are so superior to those which sustained the Jewish people through millenia of trauma, and which were given us personally by our Creator at Sinai in the presence of the entire Jewish people (so none could deny). His opinions must be anchored in very firm bedrock to match that !

1 ) Not hatred, just contempt 2 ) I said "Israel as we know it"

"Defensive democracy will not bear the burden of the minority's livelihood if this minority advocates parasitism as a way of life that impoverishes the majority. It will cure itself of the destructive concept that another's values, whatever they are, are equal in value to the values on which democracy is predicated. It will not boost a culture that despises multiculturalism and strives to instill a single culture - a culture of a minority that thrives thanks to the tolerance of the majority." ALL of this applies 100-fold to the Muslim minority. Why does this go unmentioned?

The frummies who go around in clown suits in the US have a solid secular education as well, last time I checked. Israel's Haredim are another thing entirely. If THEY expand, they will NOT make Israel wealthy.

Hey Ynet - (1) - Do we get any background on the writers here. Or, can just anybody get published here. (2) Can we have an editor check for any real facts or can a writer just write whaever he or she wants. (3) There are a few haredi towns in Israel are they all (or any) lawless messes. (4) The uninformed or unintrested look at the hareidim as a solid group, but we all know that when there are 2 jews there are 3 opinions. so no matter how many haraidim we get the democracy in israel is safe.

Mr. London, you are the only coloumnist on Ynet with which i have NEVER seen any article that makes sense, once again, business as usual, yaron London, STOP WRITING, and to Ynet, STOP this man in his tracjs, just take a look at every single one of his articles, their all just filled with hate and exonphobia toward observant jews, how shameful you have such a Jew hater writing here.

Apparently yaron london has no idea what he is foaming about, pray tell me what democracy you are referring to? Would it be Israel's oligarchy controlled by 19 families? Would it be Israel’s courts invasive powers? Would it be the lack of any checks and balances? Would it be the open corruption and abuse by out politicians? Would it be the violence by the police? The stamping out of political dissent on the part of the right.. Maybe moshe feiglin being charged with "sedition" As a student of the constitution... I tell you bluntly "you’re an idiot" there is no such thing as secular democracy... The fathers of modern day democracy drafted the US constitution to protect freedom of religion... the so called "seperation of church and state" was only forbiding state sanctioning an official religion to prevent religion persecution... Secular democracy? You mean the arsim who do drugs and kill each other? Walk down the street fool... look what society has come to. What about ethics and values? You want chareidim to be patriotic? Maybe call of your lifelong hate campaign and start treating them like a brother and not like an animal.

Well, they BUILT it, first of all. After that, they turned it into a technological powerhouse with an extremely strong economy in a mere 60 years.

It all lies, unfortunately, in our politicians hands. There is still time - still a few generations before they constitute a majour demographic threat. In these upcoming generations, we must raise strong leaders who understand these problems and their solutions - THESE WILL BE THE FUTURE LEADERS OF ISRAEL. The first step is doing away with the Tal Law. We can do it if our weak politians weren't so afraid of the Haredim's power. Once they serve in the army, they have less time to breed like rabbits. That is step one. Step two is reforming Israel's welfare systems. NO MORE CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS - Israel isn't a nanny state, and we are short enough on money as it is. That goes for Arabs, ULta-Orthodox, and seculars. If you want kids, make sure you can afford to raise them. Since most Ultra-Orthodox don't work, they will have no choice but to find real jobs now that their main source of income has been taken from them, leaving them less money to have huge families, and yet again less time to breed like rabbits. The solution lies in raising our kids - that means YOURS and MINE and every other secular Israeli who cares for his country - to be the future leaders of the state who can understand the problems we are facing. If nothing happens in the next generation or two we are finished.

Israel is not controlled by 19 families, though these families have a far disproportionate share of the wealth. You are of course right about the structural deficiencies of Israel's democracy, though. I think your take on the US Constitution is rather, how can I put this tactfully?, a bit too simple. Yes, there should be no official religion. But the First Amendment also takes temporal power away from such religions, as no legislation can be made with respect to them. The US is indeed a "secular democracy," even if the people are not at all secular for the most part. We don't have to rely on Supreme Court rulings alone on this matter. The most important thinkers and drafters of this document were either Deists or basically atheists, and they knew exactly what they were doing. While I think London is mostly a skunk, he is NOT wrong regarding the Haredim overall. Most of them are not patriotic because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT A JEWISH ISRAEL SHOULD EXIST YET. Given that, all one can expect is that they follow the law, not that they love their country. And as for ethnics and morals, please. Are we talking about the Haredim?! Finally, it is difficult to believe they are not a threat to any hope for democracy when they live their lives under the orders of their religious notables. This is not evidence of a democracy loving orientation.a

Do you really think that the Haredim care one bit about Jewish brotherhood? Do you try to get your brother to pay for your lifestyle and take bullets for you?

Go with the majority rules and worship the Goleden calf...or maybee turn or children to telivision where the sodomistic lifestyles can be sold to them under the flag of giving rights to a minority that is not a race but a sexual devation. Democracy is not what it is sold as. Look at the rapid decline of the US as thier democratic leaders sell-out and force businesses to go to China. As their women abort their babies at astounding numbers each year. Where children grow soo fat they need new extra wide carsetas. If liberals have any clue how many curses of Torah are falling this day - well of course you would have to read...is that too much to ask. Grow goodmen and stop supporting the bad ones. Orthodox, although misled, are good men comparitivly. Give birth to more orthodox children that love G-d, please. Less who love drugs and popular culture and say they believe this world is split atoms up unitil the day they stop liying to themselves and ask G-d "why me?". suffer..

Treat the charidim like your brothers , not like animals . You wrote . Did they behave like "brothers" when they were hatefully throwing stones at buses , police officers . Were they behave like "brothers" when calling those police officers with names of 60 -70 years ago ? So how should those be treathen ? like "brothers" ?

For those who do not understand why, should read the torah and the words of the sages to find the answers - they follow halacha. If this is so, then insh-all-a-h no child of yisro'el should oppose them.

If secular Israelis envision a demographic threat from the Orthodox, there is a simple remedy: stop having abortions. There will be more secular Israelis and the nation will be stronger.