Every one is raving on about how this one or the other has served Israel and feels committed to the Jewish peiple !!! Nu, so that's what the Article is saying !! Anybody who is attached to the Jewish people and has converted by whatever stream of Judaism, then there is no problem. But people who are here and have no affinity for anything Jewish and if anthing aspire to only that which derides the Jewish people and Judaism ??? So yes, there should be a period of time for such olim to prove their commitment before they become "Nationalized", like is the situation in Europe. Without retaining a Jewish character to our land then we are doomed !!!

A converted can not become an ethnic Jew , you wrote . That's the same i'm saying . He is [ if converted in a serious way , not as some "pseudo" converts ] a Jew by Halacha , but can't belong immediately to the Jewish people . When you say that 20 % of israel's population is ethnically non Jewish , you would better write : of Israel's "Jewish" population . And what about a Jew who converted to another religion ? for me no law of return for them . They are'nt Jewish anymore , even if born to a Jewish mother . As in every developped country , we need foreign workers . There are many jobs Israeli Jews will not accept . Caretakers is an example . So we can not expell them has some sujest . But they need to stay "foreign" workers

Tell me , where is it written that we allow illegal immigrants to the USA ? Immigrants , illegal or not , are dragging down the wages ? Not at all . They are fullfilling the low payed jobs that the local inhabitants don't want to have . So the local inhabitants can have better paid jobs . That's so in Europe , and most likely in the USA .

Check with an Orthodox rabbi but, if I'm not mistaken, most Jews who recite their version of the definition "Who is a Jew?" from memory get it wrong, neglecting a concluding phrase: "and has not converted to another religion"? Are born "Jews for Jzeus" Jews after all? Some rabbis have stated that they are meshumadim Jews. In my view, they are Edomites who shouldn't even be considered meshumadim. (Most, in fact, weren't born Jews and are plain Christian goyim.) Even this definition does nothing to discourage atheism, Torah-rejecting secularism and, in practice, does nothing to stop adopting religions other than Christianity--Edomites all. The Law of Return must be amended to define a Jew according to Halakhah, but the the rabbis need to summon the courage to recognize that the Biblical purpose was to include children of Israel unless they "opted out" OF THE B'RIT (Torah). Trying to hold on to every Torah-rejector who ever had a drop of Jewish blood has not only proven self-destructive, it is pure racism to the core and fuels--justified--charges of racism from every quarter; and this racism is a dominant factor fueling misojudaism in the world. Contrary to most factors, this racist factor is misunderstood--glossed over--by Jews, not gentiles (who are eager to point it out and proclaim it). Rabbis should amend a concluding phrase, applicable to born and converted Jews alike (one Torah...), to read: "unless (s)he rejects the B'rit of Torah." Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Orthodox Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai) Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

I believed that a mother passes down the Jewish religion. So how come so many people have "become" Jewish from paternal grandparents.

remove racism from the law of return, but enshrine the mitzvah of racism against christians. kind of like how the islamists make a religious duty of hating jews. kol hakavod, p*qid. come on paqid, it's comical that you're trying so hard to be accepted as a jew. the self-loathing is a cute touch. and that's what i'm just not understanding how you are portraying yourself as a follower of yehoshua (or whatever), yet your speech drips with bile-filled hate. was the ribi a hate-monger, too? if so, that would explain a lot.

As a goy you know exactly what those jews for J are , they are the same non Jews as you are . But at least then don't hide behind a self proclaimed "Jewish Orthodox Israeli" as you do .

to 24 there are my words,thanks.I made alia from Russia in 1991 with all members all my family except 2 brothers of my grandmother who were murdered in pogroms and 44members of family who were killed by nazi ,most of them in concetration camps,mostly in Treblinca.my grandmother in hers 20th was activist of zionist movement which brouth her to soviet union prison for a short time ,but obvioslly terrible so much that she stopped talking about this period untill end of her life.My parients tried to make alia in 1974,but weren't permitted to live Soviet Union untill Gorbachev came to power,my family typical secular jews ,only me married to non jew who is much more patriot of the State that many Israelis,my douther did army service,working now as nurse and studing in university.I 'm midwife and inspite of very difficult period of adaptation always felt proud Israeli.Among my friends many famylies with one non jew and I admire them even more than jews desided to make alia for making this hard decision to leave everything in they country in they life... and to come to this country and to share not simple life with jews.All children of my friends made army service in spite of that their pariends didn't convert because to fill Israeli ,to be Israeli it is note same with being religios(don't forget that this country beild secular jews ,many of them have been Russians from same zionist movement of my grandma)One of this Israeli soldiers was killed in the last war...that how they proof love to this country.try to stop alia of mixed famylies and country after a while wan't have army,We'll have predominant population grouth from religios and arab sectors,majority of both of them don't serve in army with all my respect to to these sectors this is a fact,so after a while the State will fall down without any help of Islamic fanatics.Having so clever ministers we don't need enemy.

"Only after proving, over the course of a few years, their ties to the Jewish people, knowledge of the Hebrew language and loyalty to the State, will the immigrants receive Israeli citizenship". Wow! Does that make sense or what? Excellent article and excellent observation.

I don't know if this ribi was a hate-monger but i think that for our "friend" no hate mongers are needed , he has enough hate in himself . I respect all TRUE believing religious people , if they don't try to impose their lifestyle on me . But i , at least , DISLIKE FAKE persons , deceiving persons , liars , evils behind a respectable mask . And this is a complete image of this mr van ....AKA p*qid

Every Rabbi will consider a true convert as Jewish . That's correct . But i will add : Jewish by Halacha . A True [ i don't talk about some "speedy" or fake conversions ] convert can't become a Jew ; to belong to the Jewish people you need some generations , not a piece of paper . A convert can't have this Jewish history engraved in his Neshamah , can't have this Jewish Neshamah , those Jewish feelings . A Convert can be a good follower of Jewish religious laws . That's probably enough for Rabbanim , not for me , a Secular , but a 100 % Jew

it will be difficult to do. There are a lot of issues that this will raise - namely who is a Jew issue. While it may seen irrelevant this answers and involves all dilemmas. How you define a Jew determines who is eligible under the law of return. The religious view separates the secular but in Israel everything is mixed into a jumble. some outcomes are bizarre. If we were a totally secular state I would say let in whoever is of Jewish ancestry , mostly mother or father being Jewish but as we are a mixed secular religious state and in such religious state, you are only Jewish if you mother is, or grandmother. So who do we exclude and we do we accept and what definition is Jewish, ethnicity or just a religion? It logically cant be both. As to the age limit, I think this is to stop the stream of elderly aliya from the third world countries who have no resources and thus "drain" the resources. Generally this is a good idea and a step forward but it could turn out good or bad depending on how it is dealt with. We are not a totally secular country where everything is clearly defined and this will be the root of the problem.

To me a Jew is an ethnic Jew of the Jewish faith. I include ethnicity and religion. A convert in my eyes is not an ethnic Jew and never will be. An ethnic Jew that has converted to Christianity will never be regarded by me as a Jew. Israel could maintain a small minimum foreign fork force, but mechanize its construction industry - just like Europe did.

he is increasingly hostile and angry,maybe this is what his teaching is all about. he is trying too hard to prove he's jewish, so much that he feels the need to be hateful to everyone who doesn't agree with him. a sign of a small mind, but we know that already. like it is said, "a tree is known by its fruit". and for the p*qid, rotten fruit = rotten tree.

The difference between Hitler and me is that he was an Austrian and I am a Jew, he was a despot, that he killed my family and I am just a peaceful that wants my country to be left alone by enemies, I am a democratically inclined person, he supported Nazism and Fascism and glorification of state authorities whereas I support a slim libertarian state with as little influence over the individual as possible with a multi party system and a free market and an ethnic Jewish majority in an ethnic Jewish nation state, Hitler wanted to kill people based on ethnicity, I don't want to kill anyone - but I reject people I don't identify myself with and whereas Hitler had racial theories I have no such theories at all. The very comparison Gavriel makes me question your mental health. Yes, there is more or less Jewish in the same way as a Pole can be more or less Polish depending on what parents he has - if they are Polish or partially Polish. Ethnicity is not only about a text in a book but also an ethnicity - blood line. Yes, I am ethnically a Jew - by blood. Do you have a problem with that? Is it suddenly a crime to be ethnically homogeneous? You have revealed you racist nature Gavriel. As I said before Gavriel and I hate to repeat myself: Talmud was written by rabbis and therefore Talmud has no higher authority then people. And no, I am not a religious Zionist - I am a secular Zionist, and Zionism itself reveals that being a Jew is first of all about nationality/ethnicity and nationalism. And in Talmud its says that a Jewish person is still Jewish even if he or she does not believe in God - meaning that the very same source that you refer to says that a Jew is a tribal and ethnic entity first and foremost and Talmud itself says that a Convert to Judaism can never become a Cohen or a part of the priesthood. And among the most nationalist organizations in Israel is the Mossad, and they prefer to employ 100% Jewish people, meaning people with Jewish fathers and Jewish mothers. Mossad's concern is loyalty and no text in the Talmud can change human nature and/or loyalty's of today's people. Mossad wants loyal people and not people with double loyalties. Many people of mixed marriages have identity problems and mixed or dual loyalties - that neither you nor the Talmud can change. and the very purpose of the Talmud is to interpret the Torah and the reason why Talmud was written is because the rabbis wanted to save the Jewish nation - emphasizing the word NATION in the diaspora. As the Talmud has accepted Conversions into Judaism, the Converts don't look Jewish and are not ethnically Jewish. They are not in majority in Israel and very few gentiles over the centuries have converted to Judaism and rabbis even discourage gentiles from converting to Judaism. And you probably know why? Judaism and the Jewish people depends on an exclusive identity - that is all to it my friend. And once again: we want ethnic Jews loyal to our traditions. Ethnic Jews that convert will not be accepted for aliyah - at least not in my eyes, and Converts and/or Jews with non Jewish spouses will not be accepted into Israel - at least not by me. Ethnic Jews loyal to our heritage will become citizens of Israel - at least from my point of view. I have already explained to you in talk backs 54-55 my views. The level of tolerance we can show depends on what percentage of Israel's population is ethnically Jewish. If we had an ethnic Jewish population of 90-95%, we could be far more liberal and generous, because our overwhelming majority in the country would already be a fact. Judaism prevents and prohibits reckless altruism. If someone it is you. You are not tolerant of my and others Jewish ethnic heritage and you want to force me to accept your views - something you cannot possibly see as liberal and tolerant.

The difference between King David and the converts of today is very simple: Israel was in the process of nation building back in his days. We already have a Jewish nation or people. Second: he was loyal to Israel - no one else.Unfortunately he was a promiscuous man. But, definitely a Jew. Now why is that? Because even though he might have been mixed, he was loyal to Israel and no one else. And he was born and raised among Jews in a cultural context where people have been Jewish for generations. You simply cannot convert someone into Judaism and claim that a piece of paper suddenly changes his mindset and priorities. And a convert is not an ethnic Jew. The whole idea of conversion to Judaism is based on Diaspora and the fear of not being bale to save the Jewish nation in the diaspora. Now when Israel exists again, we should should not accept the Converts. If 1.3 billion Chinese are converting to Judaism, are you suggesting that we are of the same ethnicity? I'm sorry, but we are not. The Jewish identity like all national identities needs generations to consolidate its identity and loyalty of people. I don't trust the Converts.

Do you know how many jews live in Jordan? I can tell you, NONE!! Israeli people, 20% of which is from arab origin, can tell you about Israel "racism".. Perhaps Israel should have learned from you, jordanians, if they wanted to become a racist state. By the way, how many jews live in the palestinian territories, in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and so many arab countries? And you dare call Israel a racist country? You are a miserable person!!!

Are you an israeli citizen? So, why do you call the State of Israel as Palestine? If your dream is to live in a State called Palestine, you should go to Gaza or the West Bank. The so-called palestinian refugees you want back in israeli territory will have the same dream as you do? If this is so, I expect your position will not succeed. I don´t think Israel would like to commit suicide.

Foreign workers , i see them every day , are , as far i know , mostly active in care of elderly . Not to mechanise . Europa has a need for foreign people and workforce . This due to demography . If there were not those foreign people , there would'nt be enough working people whose contributions pay the pensions of the retired ones . Years ago , there were 3 working people for every retired . Now much less , people live longer , retire at a lower age . Other reason for foreign work force . They take jobs "locals" don't want , they take the lower paid jobs , so the "locals" can have better ones , better paid . Regarding "ethnicity" , even i use "people" , we agree .

That all Palestinians and their descendants regardless of religious faiths will return at once to the land they were expelled from in accordance with UN resolutions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So it is written...so it shall be done.

Where i lived abroad , i had a Orthodox convert as colleague . By the religious he was trusted , was a serious believer , and was even named Gabbai of an Orthodox synagogue . By Orthodox i mean very religious , those "kippoth serougoth" and more believing . Well he had to look to a very far country to find a bride ....When talking on daily subjects , not religion , you could feel a big difference , not the Jewish reactions , we have . Conversions begalut were not my problem as a secular , but here it's different . They can become Israeli . You don't trust them . In what ? can't they be loyal to the State ? You know certainly that many Gentiles fought on our side in the war of independance . Not to trust ? Yes , in other countries they don't trust "new" citizens . A fine example is that Albert Einstein could not receive the high security certificate [ i don't know exactly how they called it ] from the CIA , he was a "new American"

May I correct something? The ancient Israelites/Hebrews never were pagans,but never ever! Abraham ,our forefather was the one who started spreading the concept of One G'od and it was he who started gathering the souls who became the Hebrew People.His father was ,yes, a pagan,an idols maker.But G'od sent Avram(after Avraham)from his family to the land He would show him. Avraham circumcized himself at the age of 99.Itzak was circumcised ,and of course Jacob too,who after became Israel. It is said they all knew Torah,even before Torah was received at Sinai. G'od forbid,Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were NEVER pagans!

If Y-Net will release this I will inquire of you a little more: Why are there Jews like you who think that there are people in the world who are not Jews who really really want to be Jews? With all the anti-semitism in the world, all the hatred of Jews, all the threats to a Jews life, an entire Muslim world who wants to kill you, why do you think it is so special being what you are? Is it that nice Kosher diet maybe, or the Joy of Shabbat that the world loves so much. Maybe it is the rocking and davvening? The fighting among ourselves that the world is so jealous of, surely that is the attraction. Maybe there is just a lot of crazy people out there who loves falafel and Mogan David wine, and delicious matzoball soup. Get over yourself Sister. You ain't that special.

I indeed see the guest workers every day. I was referring to the construction industry which uses cheap labor in Israel and USA but is mechanized in Europe. If we Jews would constitute 90-95% of Israel's population, I would be far more "tolerant", "liberal" and "generous" towards guest workers. Even this present Olmert Administration admitted that there are too many guest workers in Israel. When it comes to Israeli Arabs - you know where I stand - I want them out.

My point is the following: if ethnic Jews like you and me would constitute not merely 80% but maybe even 90-95% of the population of Israel - I wouldn't mind showing more tolerance towards converts. My tolerance to them is based on the ratio of ethnic Jews vs non Jews in Israel. If the Israeli Arabs wouldn't live in Israel,we Jews would definitely be the overwhelming majority in Israel. In that scenario, I wouldn't feel worried over mixed Jews from mixed marriages coming here nor would I mind having converts. But I would regard the converts the same way as I view non Jews in Israel. I place converts and non Jews in the same "box". If Israel would constitute mostly of Jews of the spirit but not Jews of the flesh - I would no longer consider Israel to be my homeland. I am certain that converts and mixed Jews can be loyal to Israel, in the same way as Serbians, Slovenians, Turks, Iranians, Poles can be loyal to Denmark but the purpose of Denmark is Danish ethnicity and Denmark is very careful now of letting foreigners in. Foreigners as in ethnic non Danes - not exile ethnic Danes. I do not view ethnic Jews of the diaspora as "foreigners" in Israel. So my point is: loyalty must be demanded from all citizens - you, me and everyone else. Second, ethnic Jews like you and me must be in overwhelming majority in Israel. Then the presence of a small minority of mixed Jews and converts wouldn't bother me at all. So my view on these issues is pragmatic, security related and related to my identity and what people I can relate to as my brothers and sisters. But having people pretending to be Jews and calling themselves Vladimir or Boris and celebrating Christmas and referring to themselves as "Russian exiles" are the very people that I want Israel to kick out. I hope my explanation is thorough enough.

It should stay the same !!! it is fine the way it is and we want the world to love israel

Actually - I am right. Archaeological evidence in Israel suggests that ancient Israelites - our forefathers by ethnicity, by tribe and by bloodline (and not some fuzzy concept of religious philosophy of phony Jews from Africa or Russia) were pagans. They believed in many gods. The Tanakh suggests this by revealing that Israel's prophets constantly had to remind our forefathers to keep their Jewish faith. The prophets were worried over Israelites praying to pagan gods and the prophets were worried of Solomon accepting pagan gods brought by his foreign wives. And then of course when the Israelites, earlier in history were in the Sinai, you hear the story of Moses' brother Aaron and the Israelites bringing the golden calve - in direct contradiction to monotheism. Jewish/Israelite monotheism was consolidated in Israel/Judeah after the Babylonian exile. After the Babylonian exile, most ethnic Israelites/Jews were also Jews by faith. The problem was not if to accept God. The problem was how to interpret the ambiguous Tanakh. Thus, rabbis centuries later developed 1)Talmud Yerushalmi and 2) Talmud Bavli.

Yes,you are right in the sense that we, as People, tend to be very "disobedient"and want to follow any god that appears in our way;the newest one is called god Left;in more ancient times was Helenism,and so on... But ,"fact"is that ,according to our Torah ,who came before the whole Tanach(actually,Rabbis call our whole body of teaching Torah),we as a People always believed in One G'od,or at least were supposed to. I believe,inclusively,that all of our sufferings are the result of not obeying our own Neshamot,our own religion,our own history. We insist in denying the indeniable,because the reason we are in Israel and the reason we keep following a certain Path is due to our soul's call. (excuse me for my English a bit full of mistakes)

Perhaps you're just pretending to be one in order to incite hatred towards Jews? Hmm... Well, I can't prove that, so lets say you really are a Jew. As one, you should be aware of the fact that there were plenty of converts throughout Jewish history. Even the ones whom you consider to be "ethnic Jews". Also, According to this logic, there aren't even 75% "ethnic Jews" in Israel. Ethiopians are def. not; The majority of the Yemenites are heavily mixed with South Arabians and Africans; A lot of Berber converts joined the North African Jewry; 10-(who knows?)% of the Ashkenazim - Khazar, German and Slavic blood. There were even some converts and non-Jewish Eastern Europeans among the first Zionists in the Yishuv. I guess that leaves you with, um, what, 10-20% pure-blooded Jews? How sad! I myself have a non-Jewish ancestor (German, catholic) in my lineage and I don't practice Judaism, yet I'm a 4th-generation Israeli-born who was raised as a Jew. Imagine how many more of us are out there... BTW, how is Alexander more Jewish-sounding than Vladimir or Boris?

Interesting that people in this forum who articulate there opinions about who should and who should not be accepted to living in Israel are basically olim hadashim. Perhaps alexander had felt so insecure in minority of heterogenous US that he wanted to be among Jews, pardon me ethnic Jews only in Israel. Your views my little Alexander indicate that you are a newcommer. I suggest that you stay a little longer in Israel, write your agenda so that people can learn about them and become politician. Who knows maybe you get some voices among ethnically clean ... olim hadashim.