Jewish Scene
Women worshippers stir row at Western Wall
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 25.02.09, 18:43
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31. #24: I hear you but you should have known
adam eliyahu   (02.25.09)
The Israeli press will jump at anything to Charedi bash. I hear that it may not have been your intention to disrespect. I still have issues with some things you did however I stand in awe of your need to daven. Please take into account next time the aspect of Israeli society that tolerates every religion but their own. Have the most joyous Adar and a glorious Purim.
32. Wow!, there is no separation at al-Kaaba
observer   (02.25.09)
33. Halacha?
Sharon ,   Houston, US   (02.25.09)
Rabinovitch says: "as long as she does not breach the local custom, which is Jewish Halacha" Rabbi Rabinovitch, with all due respect, get your facts straight. "Custom" = "minhag", and is not equal to "Halacha". Customs change...
34. #24 Rahel
David ,   USA, exile   (02.25.09)
Kol Hakavod daughter of Yerushalayim! The Elis of today wish not to see your lips move but the Father loves your praise.
35. Fact; Women are not equal to men
adam eliyahu   (02.25.09)
And that is a good thing. Trying to make women equal to men disrespects them. We are seriously tlaking apples and oranges. Equal means "the same as". Women are the different and therefore each is necessary to the other. To equate them negates each sides specialness and we can no longer discover their unique specialness. Do women want equal respect or do they want to be respected because they are women? Think about that. Do they want to be equal to men or do they want the unique qualities of women to be valued. I feel strongly that the world is a mess because women are not valued. Western culture wants to make them equal. I don't. We have enough masculinity in the world and making women equal will only make that worse.
36. i ask you-does it make sense?
Moshe ,   UK   (02.25.09)
Nowhere in the Torah are we taught what tefilin look like. We know what to put in it and that it's black box etc. from the Rabbis. Orthodox Rabbis-not reform rabbis. So if they don't believe in Orthodox Rabbis, put something else on your arm-not tefilin!! And if you do believe what they say- then don't trash them and pretend you are so learned! You are truly mixed up!
38. They should not be wearing kippas
Yerushalmi ,   Jerusalem   (02.26.09)
They should cover their hair properly, with a nice mitpachat. This way they would wear a uberkippa, and be more men then men and true feminists.
39. PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dave ,   uk   (02.26.09)
These woman need to accept the fact that they are indeed woman and be proud of it instead of pretending to be men. There is nothing wrong with being a woman.
40. #2 & #24
Aaron ,   SF, USA   (02.26.09)
While both of these are the best, legitimate comments, the weakness of Israel lies in the comment #24. The reform and Orthodox religions in Israel need to understand one another better, especially the necessity of the Orthodox laws and of why the reform movement feels oppressed.
41. The Western Wall is not the Temple
Ezra ,   CALIF   (02.26.09)
All Jews have their own opinion, and I have mine. It would seem that the emphasis should be on praying instead of complaining about how they pray. In fact, if we spent as much time preparing for Shabbat, as criticizing these women, the Moshiach would probably appear. The 3rd Temple is not built yet, and the Western wall is not the Virtual Biet Hamikdash. Hello! The Jews need to start building on the temple mount soon! It might be the women who move the first stone!
42. Jokes on you, ladies
Yaakov ,   Serious Galut   (02.26.09)
They speak but they know not... Hey fellows? How do we know what tefilin are meant to look like? How do we know the method of making the tzitzit? Both of these involve many intricate details! Guess what? The Torah does NOT tell you at all - no clues whatsoever! What on earth are "totafot"?!? And why don't we place them "between your eyes"?? What are the "fringes" meant to look like - a brush?? Rather, it was the Oral Teachings given to Moshe at Sinai along with the Written Script that tells us these things. And for these Traditions, we have to rely on.... on no... the Rabbis!! So you'll insist on blindly following the Rabbinical Tradition (that stems from Moses) for tefillin and the talit, and you'll read the Torah in the manner taught by Moshe and transmitted by the Sages.... See what I'm getting at ladies...? If you want to mess around with Rabbinical traditions, then forget the whole thing; if you believe in it, then accept the whole package. Meanwhile, keep coming to the Kotel; its a holy place, and it may just set you straight.
43. I'm impressed
Shaul ,   Sheboygan   (02.26.09)
And on this very same day . . . Millions of Christians are celebrating Ash Wednesday--the start of 40 days of Lent. Please thank G-d for these women who turned out in large numbers to be unmistakably identified as JEWS! (Despite current world opinion.) THEN, resume educational discussion. Thank you.
44. these women are confused
nr ,   los angeles, usa   (02.26.09)
frankly, from the reform women that I have met, if the Torah said that men should stay at home all day and bake, and women should stand outside and daven, then they'd riot to be able to stay at home and bake. They're not interested in a connection to the Creator, they're interested in a man's connection to the Creator. They're pathetic.
45. Feminist orthodox
Shira ,   NY B"H YERUSHALAYIM   (02.26.09)
there is no such thing, you can't be feminist and orthodox. Why do the reform women who claim to be feminist want to be so much like men?????????? And yes, actually people who come to the Kotel on shabbat and smoke, take photos, or use cell phones are told that they are desecrating shabbat and are asked to stop, so no the ultra orthodox are not singling out these (un)feminist ladies who attempt to practice like men.
46. reform feel oppressed?
Golan ,   SL   (02.26.09)
The reform movement (that decry circumcision, shabbat, and Jewish nationhood as well as Zionism) claims that theirs is a legitimate form of Judaism. Ok, I am fine with that. But why then do they deny the "Jewish" Christians their "form of Judaism"? Why the double standard? A reform Jew is a Jew if his/her mother is Jewish. No one will disagree to that. But then motherright is what the American reform movement opposes. It is also why the Israeli reform movement does not recognize either the American Reform movement (who used to celebrate shabbat on Sunday) and the "Jewish" Christians.
47. Reform Jews, please read #36 -- great insight! (END)
Chen ,   Minneapolis, MN   (02.26.09)
48. There are lots of things which
Sagi ,   Israel   (02.26.09)
I dislike in the Jewish religion. There are a few things I find to be disgusting and insulting. There is one thing that I find to be abhorrent. The separation and outcasting of the female gender.
49. I can't see where the problem is
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (02.26.09)
They do not offend anyone by wearing a kippah talles and reading Torah! All of which are acceptable in the Orthodox world as well. Problem is some of these women might not even be Jewish! As much as they may use this to advance some dubious (at best) agenda, so are some sanctinomus holier than thou jews trying to advance their Taliban agenda's too
50. THANK YOU DAVE, #39
SETTHERECORDSTRAIGHT   (02.26.09)
THESE WOMEN ARE MAKING A JOKE OF THEMSELVES.
51. SAGI: GET A JEWISH EDUCATION
(02.26.09)
52. BEAUTIFULLY STATED, #35
(02.26.09)
53. Holy?
zznhl   (02.26.09)
The Wall is not Holy, it is a wall. People are not Holy, they are people. A book or scroll is not Holy, it is a book or scroll. Only the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is Holy.
54. Enslavement
Sonya ,   New York, USA   (02.26.09)
Rashid, a dog does not have such problems. Neither does a cow. All animals need for happiness is shelter, food, walks to the bathroom, and occasional sex. Human beings are superior to animals, because we are able to think. Our journey for happiness is much deeper and more complex than a dog's. If a woman is not heard, then how can another know that she thinks? If she is not seen, because of her constant presence in the kitchen, then how can another know that she exists? By caging your women up this way, you are suppressing their very humanity. They are, in effect, no more valuable than a dog or a cow. And that is exactly how you treat them, like dogs that have to be broken down and tamed. Women are NOT animals. We are HUMAN BEINGS and deserve to be treated as such. It is our gender, and our gender alone, that has the ability to create life. You exist, because a WOMAN'S body created you. Kiss the feet of your mother to have given you life, because we women could always change our minds and stop creating you men at all. Just something to think about....
55. tefillin; a political craving for grabbing Egypt's land
observer   (02.26.09)
The source texts for tefillin in the Torah are obscure in literal meaning. The following verse from the shema states: "And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes." And it shall be for a sign for you upon your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand did the bring you out of Egypt" — ExodusExodus "And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and as totafot between your eyes; for with a mighty hand did the bring us forth out of Egypt" 13:16 "And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes" — DeuteronomyDeuteronomy Overview 6:8 So, Rabbis had to make oral Torah to discover those ("hidden") interpretations not revealed by Moses. Muslims believe in the True Torah revealed Completely by Moses which is not superseded by any Rabbinical addition.
56. # 51 I had one thank you
Sagi ,   Israel   (02.26.09)
That's why I dislike it, because I know all about it. Subsequently I had another education, enlightenment.
57. what is offensive
judy ,   herzliah israel   (02.26.09)
as a woman and as a person, i find it offensive to be treated as 2nd class by my own religion. it offends me that it could insult someone else if i decided to wear tefillin or a tallit. it offends me that it could offend someone else if i read the torah. it also offends me that the women's side at the kotel is smaller than the men's. as a mother of 2 daughters, i refuse to take them to any synagogue or holy site where men and women do not have equality within the congregation. on 2nd thought, i will take them at least once, to show them what i so sincerely find offensive.
58. #58 - you are a sad case
Suzanne   (02.26.09)
YOU are insulted; the big YOU! Lady - wake up; men and women have different roles in life. Prayer services are about connecting with the Almighty, not with your husband/boyfriend/girlfriend. By only concentrating on the negative as you see it, and not the beauty of Jewish tradition and prayer - you are destroying your children's future with your own two hands.
59. #57 reply
observer1   (02.26.09)
According to your "logic" mixed wards in hospital would be a positive step forward. This was actually tried by the loony left in the UK but has been discontinued, due to complaints from both sexes. Funny though that the feminists are lying low on this. I wonder why? The real reasons for segregation have been well put by #58 (except that she got her references mixed up!!)
60. hurt feelings?
Smith ,   Tel-Aviv, Israel   (02.26.09)
Only in Israel is the only law that is enforced concerns hurt feelings for gods sake. Reckless driving? Speeding? Assault? Nah people's feelings are important not their physical well being. And what about all the begging Haradei at the wall? They hurt my feelings every time they try and beg me for money and try to make me feel inferior to them! And I came all the way from Tel-Aviv to do the damned mitzvah! And besides there's a growing body of evidence that we're actually praying to the wall of Jupiter Apollonia's temple. Yikes! Whose 2000-year SNAFU was that??? If only the Muslims would let us do more excavations we'd find out more and more what this wall REALLY is. Boy will that be funny. "Hey guys, we've been praying to the wrong wall. We're not sure where the real one is. Chances are the Romans completely destroyed it when they built their temple on top of ours. Sorry. The Infallible Rabbinate"
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