Originally I wanted to address the main point you've raised, concerning antisemitism vs. "anti-polonism". However, I cannot dignify this with a serious response, until you'd take back your completely unrelated, and utterly unintelligent sentence: "Israel is the last colonial country on the earth refusing Arabs the right of return and depriving Arabs living there from their citizens rights." If you want, I can debate with you on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for great lengths, and if this is your opinion, then I guarentee you'd lose in this debate. However, here is not the place for that, as we are talking about Poland and its Jews here. Time and time again, I see Poles in these talkbacks trying to whitewash their country's dark past regarding the Jews, and feel better about themselves, by sidetracking the discussion into blaming Israel for injustice toward Arabs, as if there is any similarity (a comparison between the Deir Yassin battle to the pogroms in Polish Jews, was perhaps the most ludicrous BS I've seen here). If you want, we can debate about Poland's relationship with its Jews - was it really as antisemitic as people say. I have no problem discussing that. However, attempting to strengthen your case by bringing a completely distored and twisted picture, of an issue which is completely unrelated and non-comparable - does not fly here. Keep the discussion to the relevant topic please. And speaking on the relevant topic - I think this movie is a very nice initiative. I think it could hold the potential of bridging some of the gaps between Poles and Jews. Maybe, we could have another good era of trust and cooperation between the two peoples - this time hopefully, not ending the way the last one did.

this film is just a fasion thing that going on lately in poland. only now people in poland start to recognize the poland jews and the past, but there r a lot of ani-semetic people in poland today, I have met jewish someone who visited in 2005 poland was in the youth groups to the death camps, and she told me about the insident she had in the city of Warsa, she stood aside from the rest of the grop to talk privatly with her best friend and suddenly a woman came out of no where, tap her on her shoulder and do the crucifyfiction sign on her. need I say she was completely shocked, and that was in 2005.

<< we Poles are beyond guilt and we never did anything to our jewish brothers but gave them love and taught our children to respect all people . >> Show me one, ONE, of my TBs where these (or eqiuvalent) are my words, would you? Facts, dear Roman, facts.

<> Poland had no Quisling-type government during the war. So the "government" of Poland had no opportunity to hate Jews and help rounding them up. Facts, dear Gil, facts. <> It's absolutely staggering news to me that Persia was among the Nazi-occupied countries. Facts, dear Gil, facts again.

<> Kraków, August 11, 1945, one pogrom, one documented death, five people injured. Here again the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraków_pogrom. Note please that this wikipedia entry is based on source materials in possession of, among others, The Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw. And let me repeat: I do not question the number of Jews murdered in that period [1944-46], it cannot be excluded that the number may have been in fact higher. My problem is with the term pogrom, evidently overused in the context.

lol sorry can't help much longer, must tell a joke: " a polish woman wake up in the morning with a good mood, so... she sits on the adge of the bed and wait untill the good mood will pase"

In the first sentence my facts are correct because they are "respective". Do you understand what that word means in Polish? Persia may not have been militarily occupied but it was occupied in the sense that Nazi agents were based there such as Fritz Grobba, Berlin's envoy to the Middle East. Anyway I note that you do not deny the rest of my post 28. So you basically agree with me yet still battle on in this desperate manner. If it wasn't so tragic it would actually be amusing.

<> How horribly shocking! Terrible! This incident alone documents - yes, that " there r a lot of ani-semetic people in poland today". But, maybe, something more sinister?

<> So it is a battle already? Not a punitive raid, ending in a massacre, with over one hundred (conservative estimate) victims? I thought there was a base for comparison. Kielce and Deir Yassin both took place nearly immediately after the Holocaust. The perpetrators of both were motivated by hatred. Both events were to be forgotten. But yes, you are right, Mr. Tahl, if Deir Yassin was a battle, there is no ground for comparison. Kielce happened despite the Holocaust, the battle of Deir Yassin - because of the Holocaust. Yes, I understand it now. Or do I?

I apologise on behalf of Poles for the loser posting as "Konrad"... we have a lot to be ashamed for pls ignore his pathetic posts.

Yes, I agree. We should be wholehertedly ashamed. Because of Kishiniev pogrom, because of the Polish war government's attitude shown in helping the Germans in rounding up and sending Jews to their death, because of Poland's inability to raise to the moral level of Nazi-occupied Persia. Yes, shame on Poland, and shame on me.

... and how those numbers relate to what was insinuated int the first post ( #1) of this talkback????

nobody dought that poland was the most abuse country in the region, after what russia and germany did to poland(as an under statment), in time of stress any country would turn right (political wise) however you have to realize that the jews were the scape goat for poland strees.

"If you want, I can debate with you on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for great lengths, and if this is your opinion, then I guarentee you'd lose in this debate" Yes. Bring it on. Ofcourse the state of Israel was created on empty (i.e. not populated land). The Jews came, bought their land and lived there ever after happy and withouth enemies. After '48 there were no expulsions and millions and millions of Arabs (which even were not there since the land was empty and abandoned) fled the country. they've probably prefered to live in the camps and tents rather then in cities. And whole Zionist movement didn't just wait for that moment to get rid of them all and to create pure jewish state (less arabs there are, the better it is, isn't what 99,9% Jews in Israel think?). Nowdays even russian's from St Petersburg claiming Jewish ancestors have MORE RIGHTS in Israel then descendands of people who were banished from Israel just for being arab. I recon my narrative would so nicely fit into polish antisemitism picture, if not for one fact: that it was presented by some Jewish historians. There are still some openminded Jewish historians and humanists seeing the facts for what they are. So we can discus the matter really, but on what grounds??? On the ground of the official Israeli nationalist history? Or on the grounds of new theory presented by the pople like Ilan Pappé, Benny Moris and Avi Shlaim? ------- And BTW an on the margin: an answer to a joke which appeard earlier (about Polish woman and the mood)... how about another joke/ quote "The Zionist is the only kind of a person not beliving in GOD but still believing that GOD promised him Palestine". cause they like to live in the

"Or are you just mad that the Polish antisemites take the first prize of all and are recognized as such by the majority of civilized world. " Really? Who exactly recognize that Polish anti-Semities are "the worse" and on what grounds?

Konrad, do not worry! You are doing a good job here. .

Nobody here denies the documented shameful acts of anti-Semitism perpetrated by Poles. What you do not seem to understand, is that this does not mean that we have to agree with everything. The discussion was started by a poster who alleged that Germans and Poles killed 3 millions Jews - and that's inadmissible. Polish collaborators, criminals or renegades might have killed thousands but this does not compare to the collective, state-sponsored German effort that really killed millions. You also make a totally false assumption. The fate of Jews depended only partially on their neighbors' good will. Persia was not even occupied by Germans and so removed from direct German influence that it's irrelevant. Denmark had 2,000 Jews. There's a huge difference between having to rescue 2,000 and 3,000,000 people. The Polish organization Zegota itself saved more than 2,000 Jews. Even historians such as Gross (not exactly pro-Polish) mentioned that the fate of Polish Jews was sealed notwithstanding Polish attitudes. So no, it's not "pretty obvious". At least people who deal with those issues professionally do not seem to believe so. If you believe that Poles could have saved the 3 millions people then please, go ahead, explain. But do not forget to also explain why they didn't save more than 2 millions ethnic Poles.

Justine, I respect your post. Its one of the first ones that actually deals with any kind of remorse or sorrow by a Pole on this thread. However, all we ever seem to read is Poles wriggling out of responsibility for any kind of wrong doing at all. Constantly comparing themselves to other countries that were supposedly worse than Poland. You cannot lay the blame soley at Germany's feet though. Poles themselves have acted in a way that speaks for itself, carrying out a pogrom as late as 1958. Jews trying to return to Poland from the camps were turned away or chased away. There is much to answer for by Poles today and too little to defend. So save it please, we've heard it all before and its the same "it wasn't me" story. BS.

<> Sorry Gil, no remorse from me for Kishiniev 1905 pogrom. No feeling of shame for Poland's inability to rise to the moral level of Nazi-occupied Persia. Or for the actions of non-existent war-time Polish government of the Nazi established and Nazi administered General-Gouvernment. Just get down to the level of facts. There is no meaningful dialog without them. You want me to feel remorse for 1958 pogrom? The problem is I have never heard about such a pogrom (and I was seventeen in 1958). I put it up to you that the "1958 pogrom" is your ad hoc invention. Sorry, Gil.

please don't deny something we all know, trust me when I tell you that polish killed jews, I heard another story from first handed source about the nature of the polish population toward the jews, and it was very bad(an understatment) konard by denying this you bound to repeat it.

Hey Gil, I for a charge don’t respect your post, for a simple fact that you provide false information to support your claims: „Poles themselves have acted in a way that speaks for itself, carrying out a pogrom as late as 1958.” The latter part of this statement is a lie. I dare you to prove your accusations with reliable sources. Gill I wonder if you feel any remorse for all the things Jews have done to Palestinians. How does it feel to be a perpetrator of a crime as opposed to being a victim. What about those Palestinians that Jews „turned away and chased away” from their homeland? I bet it’s kind of difficult to admit any wrong doing on your side, isn’t it? OK. I know it’s not that simple, Israeli – Palestinian conflict is way more complicated. But then again, wasn’t the reality of WWII and the years immediately after the war even more complex and complicated. Any reasonable Polish person will nowadays agree that Poles as a nation are guilty of crimes against our Jewish citizens. These crimes Kielce , Jedwabne or 1968 campaign have long been a subject of national debate and yes probably some remorse too. But I can tell you one thing Gil, Poles will never ever agree with being labeled collaborators in Holocaust. „You cannot lay the blame solely at Germany's feet though” Yes Gil you can, because it’s the Germans who did it, without Polish complicity period.

about the polish point of view on the holocaust education, and pleas don't bite my head of, does the average polish people visit the death camps? and what is the gov contribution?

Those are fair questions. This may help answer some of them : http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2005/06/14897_en.pdf

I have read brieflly, good to know, and look what I have found: http://www.poland-israel.org/

Highly Respected Mr. Gsea, I do not deny and have never denied facts. Facts. There are enough well documented facts to feel bad about, but that dooes not mean that I should also feel bad about pseudo-facts, figments of imagination. In other words: I am not going to bow to anything that has its source in prejudices - in prejudice based fantasies. A pogrom in 1958? A

I'd like to respond to a couple of points but will only be able to do it later. And it might be night in Tel Aviv :) I assumed 1958 was a typo for 1948.

Sorry, I had a blackout. Kielce was in 1946, so I'm not sure anymore what Gil meant.

<> I am not either. But it seems that in this kind of discussion the date itself is not really important, what counts is just the opportunity to use the word "pogrom". And thank you for your inputs, K.

I think Gil meant 1968.... The problem with Polish Jewish relations is that people on both sides still believe in myths and stereotypes. Many average Jews for example, believe that ethnic Poles collaborated with the Germans in the Holocaust, which of course is a total absurd. On the other hand many Poles believe in "Zydokomuna" or blame Kielce pogrom solely on the communists denying existence of anti-Semitic elements among themselves. I have noticed however that all this is changing and I know that future generation of Jews and Poles will overcome these myths and stereotypes. Shalom and pozdrawiam. Jack