and I don't need to support yours.

With such a parent . Did'nt you know how to make them ? Luckily my chidren don't need you to support them , they would be death since years .

my 9 children are split up 2, 2, 2,3 to a room. i think that is just fine and so do they.each child has responsibilities in helping the other children. the oldest is not "miskena", she has an equal share just like the 4 year old who knows how to pick up his toys bring things to the table and throw diapers in the garbage. i think people who have 1 or 2 kids and treat them like invalids who can't even put plate inthe sink are abusing their children just like they think i am abusing mine. i teach my kids how to be responsible and contributing members of a family, which will in turn make them responsible contributing members of society ,not leeches who think they deserve everything handed to them on a platter.

yes, i receive alittle over 1000 shekles a month. i appreciate it although it really doesn't help much. that 1000 shekels is what youare all talking about when you always say how the haredim are mooching off the government?!! youbetter come up with a better argument than that for how terrible we are!

Yael Mischali is correct. Many feminists believe one can marry late & have a small family, but motherhood deferred is often motherhood denied. And older mothers run greater risks at childbirth & are so established that they cannot relate well to kids. And .. of course they have fewer. Life is lived in phases. Careers can wait, children cannot.

I must have missed the part where she praises the charedi "bloodsuckers" and there efforts to bleed the country of all its money! No they don't all do the army though many do civil service, hatzolah, mada and zaka among others and a some even do the army even if its not the majority, but does the army really want to deal with the majority them and there many special needs? I think the term haredi is too general how about Lithuanian and Hasidim to differentiate. Its mostly the Hasidim that are outright against the state and do not partake in any form of service! But i regress, service is not the issue here! Contrary to popular belief most of the charedim that work, and most do, pay taxes and even arnona, they pay sales tax on all purchases just like you. In fact you can have as many kids as you would like and get the same child stipend that they do its not a lot though and children cost a lot ! Which is my next point they for the most part dont live in the lap of luxury and mostly live simple lives where every shekel is counted and counts. The charedim will usually turn to charedi organizations for help and there are many but not the unemployment line. As for attention and love they get plenty often more then the secular kids who's parents are too busy with their careers for the kids. Compare your average charedi school with a secular school and look at the violence and rape statistics between the kids, it comes from to much violence on TV which most charedi homes dont have, and lack of a stable, nurturing and loving home environment. kids in large family's will not tell you they didn't get enough attention. Food for though how many charedi are there in the prison system in Israel? I bet it cost more a year for a chiloni inmate that did the army then a large charedi family child stipend's do in a year! Just a thought!

1000 NIS allowance for 8 kids... it is less than what I do receive for 3 kids in Canada. Let us face it, Charles, if the Haredim were really parasites, they would all be living in Canada or Europe.

your arguments is sounds and extensive- and almost convincing- you forgot one thing in the equation: the mother. It seems the men, the husband, the relatives, the communities, the rabbis- everybody has forgotten about the one who HAS THE CHILDREN- THE MOTHER. Does she have a choice to have the kids, how many, how far apart' etc.. If the mother is not willing, happy and healthy there are going to be major problems- . You need to educate and prepare the women- they have brains, feelings.... what I am missing in this article AND the TBs are women's voices . Funny how such an important woman's issue is attracting mostly male TBs- women are too busy with the children? If the women are doing 99% of the effort and work having and raising children I think it would be only fair if they had a say in it, don't you think?

as you wrote . I know , some 1000 Shekel is'nt much , but with your many families with vast quantities of children it's a big sum that is paid for by other people , mostly NON charidi . And as the charidim live in the poorest cities , they can't contribute very much .

charedim will usually turn to charedi organizations for help , you wrote . So they need help because they were'nt educated to have a good job , that gives them a decent income . And their children will continue the same poor way [ for most of them ] So from what income do they pay taxes and arnona ? From small incomes ? and after big reductions for the quantity of children ? They volunteer ? Yes , because for them it's first of all a Mitzwa [ OK , i appreciate their voluntering , but don't tell me that they do it in place of army ] But they do a great job , even they think they'll be rewarded later . Child allowance is not much ? No , but it are not the charidim who pay for it , it are mostly the "normal" religious and chilonim who work and pay high taxes . Please . don't come with your better education , we have seen some very bad results of this [ not to tell about those who you hide ]

And my daughter would receive 1200 Euro [ around 6500 shekel ] in my , and her , birth country , for her 6 children , So what ? And what about the cost of living there ? what about the price of Kosher food ? Do you think that people will move for money ? there is something that you in galut don't know : It's being home

First of all . I asked a neigboor with 6 children aged 4 - 17 how much he receives : more than 1100 per month , and Mo with 8 only 1000 ? Secondly . Cost of living . Look only at health care , Kosher food [ i lived in Western Europe , so i know about what i'm talking ] Jewish schools . Your difference in allowances is gone . There is another thing , you in galut can't know : here you are at HOME , Babaiit !

Do you think that families with two children don't give some responsabilities to children ? Those children also help at home , but they have'nt to play babysitter [ at home ] or bring their younger sibblings to the kindergarten . What with your chidren when they will become older ? will they still like to sleep with 2 or three in one room ?

In another article a Rabbi said : have 12 children , even some AFTER 40 years . You say , and it's correct , that older women run greater risks . You go against this Rabbi !!!! but you are 100 % right in this , only in this . What is marrying late ? 25 ? 30 ? is a woman of 30 not able to have some children ? I think that have children when you are too young is wrong . I have seen mothers who themselve were still children [ at 18 or so ]

what do you mean "that is paid for by other people"? i pay all my taxes just like you do, so my money is paying your kids/grandkids child allowances just as much as you are paying mine. do charedim not pay arnona? and betuach leumi? and all the other taxes that seculars pay? like i said in my 1st talkback- these haredim that you are always talking about sound like they have it made, where do i signup?! but in reality, i think those parasite haredim that you're talking about don't really exsist! and btw, "they live in the poorest cities"..... i probably cross paths with you while driving to work inthe morning, neighbor.

hi yael thank you so much for saying the right thing in the best way, i hope you do have a large family and you have lots of nachas from all of them, you were able to express feelings that a lot of women have and are unable to espress and especially in writting. you validated all our behavior and gave children the place that they deserve, thanks again

Hannah, Suz, to name a couple. And in ultra-Orthodox society, the woman is always an active and powerful side of any household decision - I would even go as far as to say that the average ultra-Orthodox man is taught from the very beginning that when it comes to a disagreement with his wife, he should defer to the wife's opinion to avoid any harm to household harmony. And in ultra-Orthodox Jewish society, women also get a better secular education than men, who mostly get a religious-focused education until they finish their studies - secular and professional subjects are normally left for when it's time to go out and find a better-paying job after Yeshiva study ends, whereas women get that professional preparation from the very beginning. No one tells Haredi women that their opinions are irrelevant. And also, why do you say that women handle 99% of the work in raising children? Do you think that the men do not involve themselves in raising the kids? And if so, what made you think that was the case? I think you're pushing them into a "dumb housewife" stereotype, which simply isn't true - most of them have full-time jobs.

Having reached the age of 70 and having wonderful children and grandchildren, at the end of the day all that really matters in life is their welfare. You can kid yourself all you want about fulfilling yourself in our Me Me culture but what will it matter when you're dead?! What does matter is what you leave behind. Whatever you go through in life, only your children and grandchildren matter in the end. How dare anyone dictate to others how many children they should have. How ego centric can a person be?!

Bne brak and Yeroushalaim are the poorest Jewish towns . Central bureau of statistics . There are of course charidim living elsewhere , but are they wealthier ? You pay taxes ,fine . What kind of reduction do you have because of a very large family ? Tell me how it's possible that you receive just over 1000 a months , while my neigboor , with "only" six chidren receive more than 1100 ? What kind of taxes are those eternal students at the quantity of yeshivot pay ? And how many children do they have ? What's about the money they receive themselve from the State ? You certainly don't cross my paths in the morning while driving to your work . I don't need to go out early in the morning to work . I'm retired , live of my pension .

They have a full time job , yes : children and home . But outside ? Maybe when the children are all married , but you know , find a job when you're around 40 is'nt easy .

that's what i meant when i said we probably pass each other in the morning. but you're right, it is a pretty poor town. i get 1154 if i am not mistaken, from the child allowance. why is that the same as your 6 children-ed neighbor? because after 6 (?) (i think) the amount no longer goes up accordingly. with a few children the child allowance almost doubles itself with each child. with larger families it only adds on about 100 shekels for each kid. didn't know that did you charles? so we are not making out like bandits like you thought are we. in reality those with 4ish kids get much more per kid than us with many do. and there are no reductions for large families. there are reductions for low incomes. a poor person with 3 kids get a larger reduction than a person with a normal job with 8. look, i am haredi. i have a long beard and i dress funny. but i live in a "real" city with a "real" job. my friends are the same. we have tons of kids , we pay for their education in private religious schools, which are not supported by any part of the govt (we are not shas), and feed and cloth all of them. this is our choice. it is so passee how everybody always kvetchs about how bad the haredim are. ..... just looking for someone to blame for how bad things are.....anyway, charles, why don't we just agree to disagree.

I understood what you meaned . I don't think that our town is a "pretty poor" town as you wrote . There are poor , very poor people here , not specially Charidim , but older persons . It's those who i see at the Shuk , buying the "left over" , or taking this what is thrown Friday before Shabbat , or even searching the trash bins at the shops . No reductions on income tax for large families ? Even on higher incomes ? Months ago another tb'er told me that there is . Have much "Naches" of your family .

Kids are not always a joy, but they are always a blessing. Neal The Hasmonean

advances - daycare centers, kindergartens, schools, and babysitters. A full-time job can cover 8Am to 3PM, leaving plenty of time to get the kids ready for school, daycare etc (something the husband can also do). If you can think that a young family can survive on government handouts, you're wrong. A Yeshiva student who gets his military service postponed gets approximately 700NIS from the government, which comes bundled with a ban on him employed in any position that involves a salary - a Haredi Yeshiva student can *only* subsist from the stipend, and if their Yeshiva is fortunate enough to get extra support and donations from abroad, the Yeshiva can sometimes increase the student's monthly stipend from its own pocket. So that's 1000-1500NIS covered. The first three to four children give the family an additional 700-800NIS. Can you honestly believe that anyone can survive on such a sum? That doesn't even cover food. So the wife of a Yeshiva student, who almost always has a full high-school diploma and occasionally further specialized professional educations, goes to work full-time - until recently, it usually meant a low-paying job. As the family grows, so do expenses and the need to manage a bigger family - usually by this point, the husband has already gotten a full exemption from the army or served a minimal service period, allowing him to get a job without breaking his service postponement conditions, and thus getting himself drafted. So by this point, it's part-time jobs for both husband and wife, or a full-time part-time split depending on whether one of them decided to study in a professional capacity to allow for a higher-paying job. Nowadays, with economic disaster and ultra-Orthodox higher education and job training centers available, the latter approach of a higher-paying job is getting wider attention. For the women it usually allows a higher-paying job while allowing to spend more time than before at home with the family. Should the husband opt for a full-time professional advancement, the wife tends to become a housewife if the husband's salary is enough for the whole family to manage. Of course, that's just the usual path for when the husband is a Yeshiva student in his younger years - commonly encountered among ultra-Orthodox, but not everyone's path. But that doesn't change the fact that most ultra-Orthodox women manage to work and raise a family quite well, and aren't just dumb housewives and children-factories.

most of them have a full time job . But you talk here about half time for both too . I know what day care centers , babysitters and so are . I even knew someone who had a day care for little children . So i saw the problems those parents face , with only two or three children , both a full time job and a car . Some women i knew simply said that it's not worth to work , and spend a great part of the salary to the care center , kindergarten or so . Of course they can't live on the stipends he gets plus all the other little sums they are entitled to . As i already wrote , when you see very young mothers , how can you imagine that they can have a higher education giving them the possibility to earn a decent wage . Not every woman can get a job in this Hi Tec firm [ in Modiin ? i don't remember ] who has mostly charidi women as employees . And there are not so much such firms , i think that give such opportunities . So your "most have a full time job" is'nt so accurate for me , sorry .

There are even more MODERN solutions [ at least in my country of origin ] A company has set up a "day care" for the babies and little children of their employees . So the mother is always in the vicinity , can breast-feed her baby , and has'nt to run from one place to another .

new - and that's a *high-paying* job for them. But they do alternatives - accounting is quite common in ultra-Orthodox seminaries, to name one example. The Haredi hi-tech firm is just an example of current changes in employment trends - Haredi women are looking into higher-paying jobs now, as are Haredi men. As for implying that you're stupid... no, wasn't. I was implying that you're ignorant of the public that you speak of - something quite different. Your immediate assumption was that ultra-Orthodox women just stay at home and raise a family, regardless of any facts in the field and the means available to them to both work and raise a growing family. Like many, you seem to assume that ultra-Orthodox, being more religious and less financially prosperous, are also dumber. And that, Charles, isn't true.

Where did i say , or even insinuate , that those woman are dumb ? I have'nt to know them specially , life experience is more than enough . Tell me how a woman who wed at 18 , who has immediately children , has the possibility to follow a course giving her access to a well paid job ? Those schools are not free i think . And i know exactly what it means to study while having one or two children . Even to become an accountant it takes years , and money . So your "most have a full time job" .....Some certainly , but most ?

Where did i say , or insinuate , that those weomen are dumb ? Because i can't accept your "most of them have full time jobs" ? Tell me please , how a woman who wed at 18 , has immediately children , can study to have some serious job ? Do you know that to be an accountant you need years of study ? and that's expensive too ? I haven't to know those people specially , life experience is more than enough . I know exactly what it means to study while having one or two little children . And to have something in your hands before 18 , "bagrouth" alone is not something special , there are thousands so . I'm certain that there are Charidi women who have a full time job , no problem . But most ?

"Where did i say , or even insinuate , that those woman are dumb ?" And then, immediately afterward, "I have'nt to know them specially , life experience is more than enough." So you don't imply that they're dumb, and then you already know everything without actually knowing them at all - based on "life experience". Is that like "common sense" - or as Einstein put it, the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen? So they either have to be dumb or soft - because from what you've seen, that's the way it has to be. Well, life is a bit more complex than that. Getting married early, having kids, and then setting out to get a job is difficult? Yes, it is! That doesn't mean people don't take that option, Charles, and learn to deal with it. The easy path of postponing having kids and then only having one or two is just that - the easy path for a career. There are other options, which may land you lower-paying jobs for many years and a slower path to getting higher-paying jobs, but it's there. And many people find it more rewarding to have a family than to be economically prosperous at all times. So yes, it's a hard path - and ultra-Orthodox shoulder the burden and deal with it, because that's a path the majority of them see as the right and good one for them and their family. And they deal with this reality quite well, proving that persistence, resilience and faith can get you pretty far. Perhaps you *do* need to get to know the public you're pretend to know so much about, Charles. Common sense can only get you so far.