Where did i say or insinuate that they are dumb . As i wrote and you repeated , this life , child + study is difficult , very difficult if you don't have anything [ or not much ] . This i know very well and don't need to know them specially for this . This is out of life , and personal , experience . But all your writing does not explain your : most have a full time job . ? שבת שלום

all what you mean. I clearly stated that for years now ultra-Orthodox women, specifically those whose husbands are Yeshiva students, worked full-time - the majority of them in low-paying jobs. That did not require additional study beyond their seminary one, or very little of it. as low-paying jobs don't normally require higher studies. With me so far, Charles? Next we have the Jerusalem College of Technology, until recently the sole higher education foundation truly and fully geared for the religious Jewish public. Limited places, education still fairly costly, not always at hours people can handle while working and raising a family... in short, some went to it, most didn't, but it still gave those with economic means a chance to progress. Grants and loans helped out. And now we've come to the past 10 years, which have seen a steady and gradual spread of ultra-Orthodox colleges, job training centers, and more importantly... the vast majority of them offered night classes, meaning people could slowly study at their own pace, in the evenings. Women who graduated from such institutions also had help with finding a job - some firms, like the hi-tech firm that you mentioned, snapped these newly-trained people up in full cooperation with the colleges. Ultra-Orthodox men who finished their Yeshiva studies also use these institutions, and both employment rate and average salaries are steadily increasing among the ultra-Orthodox. You don't believe that most of the women have a full-time job? Those are the statistics, Charles... they couldn't have it any other way and still afford to *live*. Again, only when the husband starts working part-time can the wife start working less, or even only when the husband starts working full-time... The family is usually bigger by this point, and that means more expenses. Please, just think with me here for a moment, Charles. Think by trying to place your self in *their* position, not by projecting your life experiences on them. You're part of a community that cherishes children, encourages large families, and at the same time sets Torah study as an ideal for men, and furthermore - encourages marrying early. So... a family is formed at the age of 19-20. They get some seed money from their parents, possibly even funding their apartment or rent for a while. What do they do next? How do they survive? How do they get money to get by? The answer - the wife, being the sole member of the family who can legally work for the next 7-8 years of this family's life, goes to work full-time. Otherwise the family will simply end up in the street, having survived for 3 years, tops, from loans and charity. And yet they *don't* end up in the street, Charles. Perhaps you have a better explanation for what anyone who has ever lived among Haredim has seen time and time again.

you did'nt talk about low payed jobs at all . With your long explanation , very convincing , you forgot to tell me where i said , or even insinuated , that they are dumb . This i would like to see . But for me this is not a life , even it's their way . And i know what it means to raise a family , even not with a dozen children , only a half dozen . It's a full time job .

"So the wife of a Yeshiva student, who almost always has a full high-school diploma and occasionally further specialized professional educations, goes to work full-time - until recently, it usually meant a low-paying job. " That's me, 54th comment, 4th paragraph. Apparently, you didn't quite read it. "They have a full time job , yes : children and home . But outside ?" That's you, 50th comment, saying that ultra-Orthodox women are housewives. Since then, you have not even allowed yourself to consider that these women can work, and to me that implies that you consider them dumb, incapable of working, incapable of thinking for themselves or deciding what they should be doing. And in a family with both husband and wife doing their best to take care of the children, where both give their attention toward that matter, it isn't a full-time job for the mother to take care of the family. Men can cook too, you know. And clean. And get children ready for school. They manage well, and nowadays their opportunities for employment are only expanding by the day.

Most of them have a full time job . My : a full time job ? yes , at home . A GREAT JOB . Maybe that for you a "mother at home" MUST be dumb , that's your opinion , not mine . So i never said or insinuated , that a woman who cares for her home , who has a full time job there , must be dumb . Don't use "housewives" , it sounds pejorative , i prefer to use this much nicer and more respectfull "mother at Home" [ everyone uses words as he thinks ] At 18 , a higher education ? Bagrout , not a higher education .

*better education* does not equal *higher education*? Seminaries leave ultra-Orthodox women with bagrut and often a specialized professional program that gives them a better preparation for life and a higher average on said bagrut.

Can you give the source of this , stats ? Most of them is how much ? 51% ? 80 % ?

only geniusses can have this , and there are'nt many .