It might help if you got your facts straight. It wasn't the Swiss who "accepted dental gold and wedding rings which they melted down into ingots which were then shipped to the Third Reich. " It was the Germans who melted down dental gold and wedding rings into ingots which they then shipped to Switzerland. And as for Pope Pius XII, to get back to him for a moment, isn't it strange that neither Prof. Wistrich nor any of the talkbacks to his op-ed make any mention of the fact that Serge Klarsfeld has recently gone on record supporting his beatification by reason of the thousands of Jewish lives saved in Catholic monasteries and churches thrown open to them on his orders? And one last remark: the only banks still holding on to accounts of victims of the Shoa in the face of claims by their heirs are Israeli banks.

There are basically 2 types of non-jews that "have to say" and post talkbacks on Israeli websites: Israel supporters and Israel haters. Most likely you are the 2nd type, it's hard to hide even in your lengthy post without clear point. You must admit that you cannot reach the level of polemics of Sarah. Try to read and think more rather then post your "comments".

Israel has fought six wars, all started by the Arabs. Israel has had to endure over sixty years of unrelenting terror, also at the hands of the Arabs. These same Arabs have rejected offers of a two-state solution on three separate occasions. It would appear that they are the architects of their misfortune. Why should Israel be made to pay for Palestinian mistakes? Each of the thirty-odd organizations purporting to be the sole true representative of the Palestinian people have charters which call for the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination and/or expulsion of the Jewish people. They are not interested in living peacefully side by side. They want the whole ball of wax, and that isn't going to happen. If they "suffer" as a result, then that, too, is "suffering" of their own making. Having lost all six wars, why on earth would you think that Arabs have the right to set terms and conditions for anything? Did the Allies allow Germany to set terms and conditions following World War II? No, of course not. Why should a different set of rules apply to Israel, who emerged victorious not from one war, but from six? The Allies were responsible for the deaths of millions of civilians during the Second World War. Germany was bombed relentlessly. I guess it is fair to say that millions upon millions of people suffered at the hands of the Allied forces. Again, if it is perfectly acceptable for the Allied powers to have done this, why should a separate set of rules apply to Israel? NATO bombed Kosovo, killing roughly ten thousand people, yet no one screamed "war crimes." Eight thousand civilians have died in Iraq. Very nearly fifteen thousand have died in Afghanistan and Waziristan. No one is screaming "war crimes." Yet again -- why should a separate set of rules apply to Israel than applies to the rest of the world? I can only speak for myself. I do not speak for others and I assure you that there is a broad range of opinions within the Jewish community on pretty much every imaginable topic. My opinions are based solely on my knowledge and my experience. I have never suggested otherwise. I reject your contention that Pius XII spoke out against the mass murder of Jews. He didn't. The Vatican was not a moral force in the world, at least not when it came to Jews or when it came to providing passports and money to enable wanted Nazi war criminals to escape justice. Is that your idea of moral behavior? It isn’t mine.

Sarah, your explanation is fair but not fully accurate... especially when saying Nato bombed Kosovo... it was Serbia they bombed... and rightfully so! Also, I don't know enough about how it is to live in Israel although I have asked many people along with 2 colleagues I work with who have lived there for many years... I know it would be an experience unlike any other in this world, I get it, but getting bombed and being part of collateral damage is a little different than what I was talking about. Its ok, I don't fully disagree with you, your comments are good ones but I just don't agree with everything... and I don't have to. Your comments about Pius XII are confusing. Regardless of what you want to believe... he did a lot to save many Jews ... MANY... more than you and a lot of Jewish people want to believe and thats also ok, I can live with the fact that you don't want to believe it. Although its interesting how Jewish opinion varies... Many prominent and popular Jews during and after the war commended Pius XII so why would they feel soo strongly enough to publicly acknowledge him and you feel soo strongly against him? About him providing passports and money for their escape... I cannot and will not argue that point because I know many people did escape to Latin America. I liked your perspective on relations with the Palestinians and the Muslim world... its very clear and for a person like me, sometimes we don't understand the severity of life and politics in that part of the world unless its spelled out like you did... thanks! I know as I am writing this to you that this topic is not an easy one for many people. I am Eastern European and my family have been through terrible times in WW II as well as in the 90's. The interesting thing is whenever a person hears a particular topic they think they know, they immediately form opinions and attitudes based on their knowledge... whether it is correct or not. Then it is hard to get that person to open their minds and listen to anything different or accept that the truth may be different than what they know! Basically I think we all tend to embelish our versions and glorify them to make a point but sometimes our points are not correct! You are very bright... I can tell by what you write and how you say it... far better than me. If I can make one suggestion it would be that you should try hard to open your mind a little more... even if its hard to do because if you ever find out there is truth in something you were soo against, it not allow you to accept it!

No, I meant Kosovo and it was Kosovo that was bombed. Read here: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/worldview/090324/kosovo-10-years-later That said, lost in the shuffle and the international outrage over Israel's bombing of Gaza is the fact that Israel was subject to daily missile barrages for a period of eight years. I hard pressed to think of one single country in a similar situation that would wait eight seconds before retaliating, let alone eight years. As it was, Israel conducted a very minimal campaign in Gaza, using 5% of its mobilizable forces. It is unfortunate that civilians died, but Israel did what it could to minimize noncombatant losses. There aren't very many countries that drop leaflets to warn in advance that a particular area will come under bombardment. Hamas cached weapons in mosques, schools and hospitals, thereby making them legitimate military targets. Hamas "combatants" would fire at Israeli troops from civilian areas. A basic tenet of any war is that when fired upon, you fire back. I confess that I am not aware of any act undertaken by Pius XII to save Jews. Even if he did, how does one justify issuing Vatican passports to war criminals? Moreover, it is fairly well documented that the Vatican supported the Croatian Ustasha, which were Nazi collaborators. In sum, it seems to me that there are enough questionable and controversial actions on the part of the Vatican during Pius XII's papacy. I think it makes him a poor candidate for sainthood, but that is my opinion. I'm sure there are many others who feel differently. I really do try to examine issues in an objective manner, which is not always easy. I tend to apply a very legalistic approach, though, and I have been told that I should take a humanitarian approach. I think that when examining difficult questions, it is better to leave emotions out of the mix. Thank you for the "bright" compliment, by the way!

Sarah - there has been a lot of progress. It just depends on how you measure it. They have come a long way from the stake times by now… If you measure progress by general standards of universal humanism (as you seem to do), of course, it’s not a lot. But this is the Catholic Church, and by their own standards they have gone through a revolution: no more mission of Jews, no substitution theory anymore, accepting the fact that Jesus was a Jew, accepting Jewish Bible interpretations etc. The question is: Should we reject this? Do we Jews need friends in the world? I am not sure myself, just wanted to point this out to you – for, as you bravely fight off Antisemites, there is the other side of the story, too.

Do Jews need friends in the world? Of course. It would be a novel experience, though. Ultimately, when push comes to shove, Jews have always stood alone.

Sorry, but this is ideology. Look, they DID hide thousands of Jews in the Vatican and in other Church institutions, it is for people like those that we can write talkbacks today. Did the Pope give the order/permission to do so? Certainly not in writing as Wistrich seems to expect, this would have been naive.

I would love to see some documentation proving that Jews were shielded in the Vatican. One would think that a Jew would have come forward after the War and said "the only reason I am alive is because I was hidden in the Vatican." To the extent I am aware, no such testimonial exists. I know of several instances where Catholic convents took in Jewish children, and promptly had them baptized and converted. French Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger is one well-known example. I know of several instances where Catholic convents or monasteries accepted money from Jews as the price for hiding them, and then promptly informed upon them to the Gestapo. What I do know is that six million Jews were massacred on Pius XII's watch. There is excellent evidence to support the fact that the Vatican knew what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to stop it. Obviously, we can never know whether a strong condemnation by the Vatican, and an appeal to Roman Catholics throughout Europe to come to the aid of the Jews, would have made a difference. I think it would have. But we cannot know. What we do know is that the Vatican remained silent, and helped wanted Nazis escape Europe following the war. The former is a moral issue; the latter is very definitely a criminal matter. Criminals should not be made saints.

Aaron Lustiger had converted in March 1940 , before the invasion of France . So telling that he was taken in a convent to hide , is NOT TRUE ....a few days earlier [ 16 oct. 1943 my note ] the pope personnally ordered the Vatican clergy to open the sanctuaries of the Vatican to all "non aryans" in need of refuge . By the morning of oct. 16 , a total of 477 Jews had been given shelter in the Vatican and it's enclaves , while another 4238 had been given sanctuary in the many monastries and convents in Rome . This is not an opinion , it are the words of an historian , a serious one i think . Martin Gilbert , The Holocaust , fontana press . P 623 . You are right when you say , as i do , that the pope remained silent , and that the Vatican helped nazi criminals to escape to south America

Who were baptised , against the will of their murdered parents , AFTER the war , and only returned to their family , an uncle in Israel , in 1953 after a long battle against church people .

you should visit the church Santa Maria ai Monti - where for hundreds of years forced conversions of Jews took place (although those who were not willing to accept baptism after 10 days of isolation and preaching were sent home). The same church, same rooms, hid during the German occupation 6 Jewish girls and saved them. The 6, now elderly ladies, gave testimonies that I saw personally in the church's archive. THIS is true/complex Jewish-Catholic reality. Anyway, concerning the need of (Catholic) friends: you Americans still don't have Islam on your list, it seems.

Happy New Year. Hadn't known that Lustiger was a voluntary convert. Thanks for the correction. I do think we agree on the point that the Vatican issued thousands of passports to war criminals. That should be enough to question Pius XII's suitability for sainthood. I suspect that a great many Jewish children were baptized and raised as Catholics, which probably perverted their parents' desires. I should think that when people in desperate circumstances give up their children so that the children may live, conversion isn't part of the arrangement. I often wonder how many there must be; how many there must be who do not even remember their true past. It's rather an ugly thing to contemplate. As much as I love my children, I would rather see them dead than Roman Catholic. Is that wrong? Isn't so much Jewish history written in blood precisely because they refused to convert?

Six Jews, eh? Nice. Out of how many? The Americans do -- or did -- have Islam on the list. Unfortunately, the current president of the United States is a Moslem. Don't worry. He's a one-term president, for sure.

in the Vatican ? What do you say now ? Yes great quantities of Jews were murdered because they refused conversion , this was not the case during the Shoa , children were not asked if they wanted to be baptised . They were baptised without questioning them and baptised or not , they survived . There must be many of those children , who were baptised but returned to their family . Some of them not even knowing if they were baptised or not . How many Jews did'nt receive fake baptism certificates to avoid their deportation ? I know some of such cases personally .

Charles, so far I have been informed that the Vatican saved six Jewish girls from certain death. I think an organization such as the Vatican, with tentacles throughout Europe and in the highest corridors of power, needs to do a bit better. I am grateful that those six girls lived. Seems to me, though, that the Vatican could probably have housed every single Jew in Italy in the Vatican palace, or in Castel Gandolfo, had the Vatican so desired. There is no shortage of devout non-Jews who laid their lives on the line for Jews. The Ten Boem family in Holland is more than ample proof -- 172 Jews they saved. So if the Vatican trumpets that they saved six Jews, forgive me while I fail to be impressed.

Charles, I have to tell you that the Vatican giving refuge to six Jews just does not impress me all that much. Anyway, my chief problem with sainthood for Pius XII is the very well-documented fact that the Vatican issued passports to wanted Nazi war criminals. That alone is enough to disqualify Pius XII from sainthood, as far as I am concerned.

At 43 you say that as much as you love your children, you would rather see them dead than Roman Catholic, and ask whether that Is wrong. I don't know about that, but I do know one thing: it's utterly perverted. At 44 you state that President Obama is a Muslim. That is not true.

I NEVER talked about those six , but about the 477 mentioned by Martin Gilbert in his book , who were hiding in the Vatican . Your opinion has NO value compared to what this historian wrote .

Your BASELESS denying of the Vatican having sheltered 477 Jews is one point . The second is that the vatican issued pasports to nazi criminals . They are NOT related .

There are many supportive comments made by prominent and influential Jews .....You wrote . Can you give let's say five out of the "many" ?

I told you already WHY those death camps were installed in Poland . A vast quantity of Jews lived there , so no much logistical problems . I have read now that nazi leadership , to whom the Poles were considered subhumans , had also the extermination of the Poles in their mind . Maybe a second reason to install those camps there ? .[ this sentence is mine ] Refence : The Holocaust and the Christian world , p. 79 .

Regarding the facts presented by Martin Gilbert . I was NOT talking about SIX girls saved , but about the 477 hiden in the Vatican .

Do not forget that throughout the period of religious strife in Europe, people were perfectly content to be Catholic one day, Protestant the next, despite major dogmatic differences in the two versions of Christianity (which have seen blossomed into far more, needless to say). Catholic today, Protestant tomorrow strikes me as extraordinarily hypocritical; how about you? I'm Jewish every day. I love my religion so much that the prospect of adhering to any other religion is positively repugnant. If you think that is perverted, too bad. I assure you that I am not the only Jew that feels this way. I daresay most Jews do. Obama's grandmother made haj. She raised Obama for the most part. He may not attend a mosque (that would be a bit much for the country to tolerate) but he is most definitely a Moslem. There aren't too many non-Moslems that can quote surah after surah after surah from the Qu'ran, now, are there? Obama can, and has.

Oh really? 477? Then why isn't Pius XII in the section reserved for righteous gentiles at Yad Vashem? I'm glad you seem to be certain about this, but I have never read anything about Jews hidden in the Vatican. Sorry.

They are inextricably linked, Charles. And the fact that the Vatican aided and abetted wanted Nazi war criminals to abscond from Europe following the war is nothing short of criminal.

The Nazis put the camps where they were likely not to be very many people objecting. The camps in Western Europe, such as Westerbork and Natzweiler, were intake and concentration centers, not death camps. The Nazis actually shipped people clear across Europe to the death camps. The Poles didn't seem to mind having camps like Auschwitz, Treblinka, Krakow-Plaszow and Belzec in their midst. I wonder why. No, actually, I don't wonder why at all. I'm pretty sure I know.

I never talked about SIX girls but about the 477 who were hiding in the vatican . I'm waiting for an answer on this subject from you . not turning around the pot please . This is not related to the vatican pasports , or to sanctify Pius XII or not . Those are separate problems , on wich we agree . Camps in Poland : I have told you already WHY they , in my view , were installed in Poland . Many Jews in the vicinity , easier and cheaper to transport the Jews to their death . Now i found a , maybe , second reason . The nazis saw the Poles as "subhumans" and some of their leaders were discussing of exterminating them too . Ref : The Holocaust and the Christian world , page 79 .

I'll say it again. The failure to save Jews on the part of the Vatican and their criminal provision of passports to wanted Nazi war criminals are inextricably linked. Also -- 477 Jews is not that many, and I have yet to read any testimonial by one such saved Jew. If they existed -- or if the 477 Jews existed -- then there should be some sort of acknowledgment in the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and in Yad Vashem. There isn't, which causes me to question the accuracy of the supposed act. The Poles were not slated for extermination; enslavement, perhaps, but not extermination. Charles you can put any spin that you want on the issue; I think, though, looking at the issue from all possible angles, that Pius XII is not a candidate for sainthood. Sorry.

Just on holiday in Australia, reading news and all... and just wanted to thank you for representing us... Jews, over and over on Ynet talkbacks, i have seen you "talk back" to many a anti semites, racists, Zionist haters, Jewish self haters and many other intresting and disturbed people who hang out on this "Jewish" news website. you have been doing a great job. and i will be reading more of your talkbacks in the new year. may 2010 bring peace to Israel and the whole world. Toda Rabba. Happy 2010 from Melbourne