I didn't say that loving your religion is perverted. I said, and still believe, that rather seeing your children dead than Roman Catholic is perverted. President Obama is a Christian.

I can't understand a woman who prefers her children death above converting to catholicism . This is INHUMANE .

Thank you very much. Happy New Year to you and yours, too. Enjoy Oz; it's a great place.

I realize that this is a little off the topic of the article, but as long as your dialogue with Susan B has gone off on this tangent, I believe it's important to weigh in. Barack Hussein Obama was born of a Muslim father. That, alone, is enough to make him a Muslim according to the laws of Islam. Don't believe it? Just ask any Muslim. Accordingly, the entire Muslim world recognizes him as a Muslim, not a Christian, and rightfully so. But if theabove were not enough for you, how about these little tidbits? He was given a Muslim name at birth and schooled in the Muslim Midrassas of Jakarta, Indonesia, a Muslim Country. Furthermore, there is no suggestion, even from Obama, that he ever converted to Christianity. You can argue plenty of things about Obama, not the least of which being where he was born and his love for America. But the fact that he is 100% Muslim is simply indisputable. Live with it.

should be candidate for sainthood . Don't put words in my mouth , please . And apologise for this at least "distortion" ! No 477 Jews are not many , but + the 4000+ others who were given shelter in church properties , on order of this pope , they make that 80 % of Rome's Jews were saved . And this was done in a very short time , just some days before the gestapo rounded up the Jews there . A little bit over 1000 were taken to their death . Can you give some references DENYING this , or contradicting Martin Gilbert ?. Those Jews who were saved are also mentioned in : Timetables of Jewish History . The Poles . Some nazi leaders such as himmlerr , hitler and franck entertained on occasion the idea of the eventual total annihilation of the Poles in a manner similar to the Jews . [ The holocaust and the christian world , P 79 ] You see , i GIVE references to what i say . It are not INVENTED stories , or LIES as you do [ sometimes , not always ]

Charles, you are asking me to prove a negative. That's a mathematical -- and logical -- impossibility. All I have said is that 477 Jews saved and hidden in the Vatican should have some documentation somewhere. I know of none, Charles and, had there been such documentation, I would probably know about it. You do know that there is a whole section of Yad Vashem devoted to "righteous gentiles," and nowhere is there any mention of Pius XII or the Vatican. There are testimonials to gentiles who saved three or four Jewish people; I have to believe that there would be one for 477 Jews -- yet there is not. Nothing in the American Museum of the Holocaust in Washington, either. Charles, I do not believe that the Slavs were destined for extermination. That was a fate solely intended for Jews and the Roma people (Gypsies). Enslavement -- which is still pretty despicable -- yes; extermination, no. I submit that there simply is not sufficient proof that the Vatican actively helped Jews; there is a considerable amount of evidence that they did not. Similarly, the Vatican's actions following the war -- issuing Vatican passports to wanted Nazis -- is nothing short of a war crime. On both counts, as far as I am concerned, sainthood for Pius XII fails. We will never know what might have been accomplished had the Vatican spoken up in protest. We know only that they did not, and six million innocent people were massacred like cattle. You draw your own conclusions; I have drawn mine. As to your comment at No. 62 -- I stand by what I wrote. I find death preferable to conversion to any religion. I like my religion. I don't want anyone else's. Historically, Charles, most Jews who have been offered the choice between conversion and death have chosen death. As do I.

Who has a value ? not yours . And i found two other sources . The Standard Jewish encyclopedia and Raoul Hilberg in the destruction of European Jews [ french traduction ] : ...le Vatican lui-meme a abrite des Juifs [ the vatican has sheltered Jews ] Now , Historians are contradicted , and you can find some . Martin Gilbert is contradicted by faurisson [ the Shoa denier ] But i did'nt find any contradicting that Jews were sheltered in the Vatican . That this fact is'nt mentioned in some places , and here [ only here ] i believe you is not a proof that this did NOT happen . Sorry mrs lawyer , but you are wrong . I have read now [ The Holocaust by Leni Yahil . p 642 ] that the Vatican had also issued 2500 "protected citizens" passports to Jews in Budapest . You say that there is no "sufficient proof" that the vatican actively helped Jews . That's NOT the opinion of Historians , and they , contrary to you , know about what they talk . You find death , of a child as you wrote , preferable to conversion . I can't believe that a "mother" can write such an horror . Not worth to have children with such ideas .

someone who converts to christianity , can always return to his/her roots . A death one , definitely not , lost forever . Did'nt you think at this ?

Charles, you have yet to explain to me how it is that these alleged acts by the Vatican and/or by Pope Pius XII managed to be overlooked by Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Museum. You are free to pursue your beliefs; I am free to pursue mine. I find death preferable to conversion. No one says that you have to agree.

Of course you are free to prefer death to conversion - for yourself. But for your children?

but as i'm not sure , no proof of it , i conntrary to you , will not write it . But it's maybe better to ask them , something you , with your alleged connections here , can do easily . Yad Vashem does NOT mention those facts in their Encyclopedia of the Holocaust , nor in their "encyclopedia of Jewish life before and during the Holocaust" . PS 1 . i have ALL the books i mentioned in my TB"s PS 2 You may find death preferable to conversion , for YOU , not for your children . Remember this Salomon's judgement ? the true mother prefered to give her child than to have this killed . This was a MOTHER

Yes, for my children. Is religion so meaningless a concept to you that you have no issues flipping back and forth between competing faiths? Doesn't say much for you. Do you know the story of Masada? Death was preferable to enslavement and to not being allowed to live as Jews. That's kind of how I feel. Why do you find it so strange and troubling?

Remember Masada? Those were mothers and fathers, too, right, Charles?

Thank you -- just saw it now.

Here you only prefered your son death , not YOU . A big difference not ?

Not only their children , as you prefer . A enormous difference , Sarah !

I was very clear that it is my choice and the choice I would make for my children. Happens to be my husband's choice as well. What part did you NOT understand?

Once more you are confusing the issue. Conversion was not an option at Massada - the choice confronting the Sicarii there was mass suicide or death and enslavement at the hands of the Romans. If conversion had been an option, and mothers given a free choice, few would have preferred death for their children to conversion. And now back to modern times: your children are not your private property, for you to decide their fate at your discretion. What counts is what is in their best interest, and that, as between death or conversion, is LIFE.

with such ideas .

And when you choose LIFE , you can always return to your roots . That is something this lady forgets . But she is always confusing and distorting everyuthing .

I don't understand that someone who has lost a child can talk in this way . Be ASHAMED , Sarah .

Whatever truth, or otherwise, is in the facts you assemble, they are quite irrelevant. What counts is that President Obama was baptized and is a committed member of the United Church of Christ.

Forgive me if I deign to consider forced conversion to Roman Catholicism to be a form of enslavement -- or worse. You see, physical slavery chains the body. Roman Catholicism chains the mind.

To me, a choice between death and conversion is not much of a choice at all. Jews have a rather long track record of feeling that way. I don't know why you should be so surprised. I am perfectly willing to die for what I believe. The question you should be asking yourself is why you are not willing to die for your beliefs. Must make your existence rather paltry. The best way to define life is to figure out what you are willing to die for. Everything then has a way of falling into place. Unless, of course, you prefer a meaningless existence. Your choice, of course.

It isn't United Church of Christ, which is a major Christian denomination. it is Trinity Church of Christ, which has all of one congregation, that being the one attended by Obama in Chicago. It is headed by the "Reverend" Jeremiah Wright, anti-Semite and anti-American extraordinaire. He has a "divinity" degree from a mail order college, much like the "Reverend " Al Sharpton and the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson. "Reverend" Wright is a major supporter of Louis Farrakhan. That said, Obama is on the record as having been raised in Islam. His grandmother -- who did most of the raising -- just completed haj to Mecca. Obama can quote more accurately from the Qu'ran than he can from the Bible. He's proud of his Moslem roots, and says so often enough. Do not forget that Obama grew up in Indonesia, where Islam is the only lawful religion, and where Christians in Banda Ace have been murdered in the tens of thousands. Get your facts straight.

The best way to define life is to figure out what you are willing to live for, not what you are willing to die for. All religions chain the mind. All you have to do if you have any doubts on this score is to reread your bigoted contributions to this forum.

The Trinity United Church of Christ is an affiliate of the United Church of Christ. President Obama has been baptized and is a practicing member of that Church. Ergo, he is a Christian.

It is not Trinity United Church of Christ, it is Trinity Church of Christ and has no affiliation with the United Church of Christ. He was "baptized" into the faith as an adult by a "pastor" with a mail order divinity degree.

Very unimpressive tautology. Figuring out what one wants to live for is an exercise in futility because the presumption is that all people want to live. Figuring out what you are willing to die for is the hard task. My contributions on this forum have to do with my politics, not with my religion. But Judaism is not like Christianity. Judaism exhorts one to think and requires an affirmative participation in one's life. For example, if I do something bad to another person, the onus is on me to seek forgiveness from whomever I have wronged. Much easier in Christianity, right? Visit a third-person-indifferent priest who can dispense forgiveness, throw some water at you and all is forgiven. You call that a religion? I call it a massive copout. Still -- sheep do need a shepherd. Christians are one great big flock.