Thankyou Mickey for you 3 very good posts.

Reading Edward Sachar's superb book entitled "A History of Israelfrom the Rise of Zionism to our Time", he writes (Chapter 13, pages 332-333)that the claim that the invading Arab armies appealed to the Arab citizenry to evacuate their homes and to return later is a false one. In fact, just the opposite appeal was broadcast by Arab radio and written in their respective newspapers.. Furthermore, Israeli authorities also appealed directly to Palestinian Arabs to stay put but, by and large were unsuccessful. The reason ascribed by Sachar to the huge Palestinian exodus was the complete breakdown of their quasi governmental system in which the majority of Palestinian leaders, including government officials, landowners, professionals, the educated, the wealthy and members of the small middle-class first fled resulting in complete and systematic chaos. As a result, the mass of Palestinian Arabs followed and they were the ones who later became landless refugees in other Arab lands. Sachar also writes that they feared that Jews would take retribution on them much as they knew that Arabs would take cruel retribution on Jews had the situation been reversed. This kind of thinking spread fear in the Arab communities and caused the mass and chaotic exodus. Although Sachar brings up the situation of Deir Yassein, he doesn't try to evaluate what effect that regrettable incident (more than an incident) may have had on the Arab mind. The influence Deir Yassein had, if any, would probably be an excellent subject for a PhD Thesis. To be more accurate still, there were also occasions in which the Jewish militia purposely had certain towns and villages evacuated for strategic reasons related to the war effort. That many of these refugees , sixty years later, have still not been settled in other Arab lands, is something which western educated people would consider a tragedy. By contrast, the 850,000-725,000 (depending on the source) the Sephardic Jews forced to leave their homes in Arab lands after the war, driven out and penniless, were all integrated into the state of Israel within ten years. Stories from our Sephardic brothers and sisters relate the extreme difficulties which they suffered in those early years. Golda Meir was quoted as saying that "We were, if anything, too successful". She meant that we (Israelis) could not appeal to the world community for pity as Arabs have done because our people were integrated into the fabric of Israeli life. According to one (verbal) source, the case of the Druse was very different from the Palestinian Arabs. Apparently, they had an elder, a distinguished leader, who told his people to stick by the Jews as they (Jews) were going to win the 1948 war. His prophecy turned out to be correct. It should also be mentioned that the Druse, to this day, distinguish themselves from mideastern Arab Muslims and are often in conflict with them. I am going to read Benny Morris' book, "The Refugee Problem Revisited". This appears to be an updated and/or revised version of his original book on the subject. Benny Morris tends to be limited by the nature of the sources which he allows into historical debate. He refuses to utilize any oral history and this must be taken into consideration. I suffered through the reading of an earlier book, "The Iron Wall", due to its dry literary style. I don't think anyone could have made Israeli history appear more uninspired. But after reading a more recent book, "One State - Two States", I am willing to tackle him again as his writing style appears to be loosening up. Finally, I wish to thank Mickey for his readable, informative and very educational posts.

If 2000 years didn't make the land arabic/Palestine, then 60 years ain't going to make it Israeli.

Mina, your article is full of self evident truths. However, they are truths many in Israel, especially our leaders, will do anything to avoid. Such as the fact that most Israeli Arabs AREN'T loyal to Israel. It seems also to be forgotten, in the mad rush to give away Israeli land, that (as you note) we have only about 20,000 km2 to live on while our Arab neighbous have more than 600 times our land mass. Thus ceding more Israeli land is insane. The only point I disagree with you about is allowing the creation of "Fakestine" in the heart of our sole, tiny Homeland. Such an abomination would destroy Israel within a decade. We must NEVER allow it! Very well said, Mina. One of the best posts I've read.

the history of the "holy land" beginning with ancient times. In general, your posts tend to be ineffective. There is a definite lack of reflection in them as well as an enormous lack of knowledge. I would welcome debate, incidentally. Can you post something indicating that you are knowledgeable on the subject of Jews, Arabs, Israel, Judea, Samaria and Palestine, please?

Observer, your Lack of historical knowledge in your post beggars belief! Jews have always been in ‘Palestine’ in varying numbers, even after the Roman expulsion. The ‘Palestinians’ have certainly not been there for 2,000 years taking into account the large changes in population due to historical wars, crusades and Ottoman conquests and many came in to get employment with Jewish farmers and merchants in the 1920’s. By the way would you say to the Australians that if 40,000 years didn’t make Australia aboriginal then 200 won’t make it white European? Would you say similar things to the Americans, Canadians, Brazilians, Argentinians, Mexicans, New Zealanders etc? None of them had the Millenia of roots that the Jews have in ‘Palestine. Even the names of most places have always been in Hebrew-Jerusalem (Yerushalaim) Hebron, the Galilee, the Negev. Up to 1948, the West bank was always known as Judah and Samaria.

Well I think I have given you enough time. You claimed that: I have provided you with reference to stats/information that clearly proves otherwise. You on the other hand have produced no percentage breakdown/stats/etc. Other than a passing mention to Twain you have provided nothing to back up your bogus claim. At the time of the founding of the modern state, the Jews owned about 7% of the land and accounted for about 10% of the population. Accept this as an actuality that you cannot disprove or dismiss as I expect you to remember this fact going forward.

- The Roman Empire 63 BCE - 325 CE - The Byzantine Christian Empire 325 - 614 - Persians/Omer muslim Omayyads 614 - 750 - Abassids muslim 750 - 10th Century - Fatimids muslim 10th century - 1099 - Latin kindom of Jerusalem Christian 1099 - 1187 - Ayyaubid dynasty muslim 1187- 1260 - Mamluks muslim 1260 - 1517 - Ottoman - Turkish Empire muslim 1517 - 1917 - British Mandate 1917 - 1948

So called 'Arab citizens of Israel' are in fact the indigenous population of 'Israel' and not a minority 'like minorities elswhere'. And therefore their plight at being 'integrated' into Israeli society is inherently more complicated. I think this fact should guide the flow of this discourse, as opposed to be left out.

So, you have arabs in a Jewish nation and you accuse them of not being completely loyal. If you want them to be loyal shouldn't you treat them like first-class citizens? Turn Israel into a nation where arabs have full rights and are not discriminated against, stop being a Jewish nation, and they will be loyal. So easy when you know how....

It is also the media which continually tell the story in a one- sided way. For most of the media it is all about the Jewish state's discriminatory practices towards the Arab minority. Rarely do we hear about 1) The special exemption the Arab minority, by and large, has from participating in defense of the state 2) The treasonous behavior of Arab Knesset members 3) The disproportionate part of the Arab minority in criminal behavior 4) The incitement of the Islamic fundamentalist element in relation to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount 5) The overall progress made by this once very poor and economically and medically backward group in the past six decades 6) The land- theft of a certain portion of this group both in the North and the South of the country

The Arabs in Israel are for the most part indigenous to the Hejaz in the Western Arabian desert. They are unwanted interlopers. Let that guide your flow of discourse.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Arab citizens of Israel enjoy all the privileges of citizenship and few of the obligations. They enjoy a higher standard of living than any Arabs anywhere save for a few oil-soaked sheikhs. I trust you have noticed that despite the fact that the Palestine Authority has been in existence for going on 20 years now, not a single Israeli Arab has left to go to the P.A. and help found a Palestinian state. Have you wondered why? It's so easy when you know how .....

Sarah B how on earth can you expect J Thomas or Zeina to take anything you say seriously when you cannot back up or prove such a fundamental point as "Jews owned the majority of the land before independence". After all the lies, mistakes and outright BS that you have spewed on the Ynet threads I am surprised that you would have the nerve to keep coming back to be embarrassed further by having your 'claims' utterly rubbished and laughed at by myself and others.

I know just how you feel. I was raised white in the US South. Blacks in this country had a higher standard of living than blacks in africa even while they were slaves. Later they had all of the privileges of citizens. They did much more crime and even did crimes against whites! They did not feel loyal to their state governments even with some blacks elected to those governments -- who were also disloyal. And no matter how much they were given they wanted more while they still hda so much less than whites. Forty years after segregation ended there are still problems. Yes, I understand exactly.

There were many very good points on both sides but saddly some of the unnecessary crudities are not useful. But now to my question....... Israel wants to be a Jewish State & the Arabs/Muslims will not tolerate that because of the fact that Muslims live there (amongst other reasons/excusses). But most Arab countries are Islamic Replublics & subject their non-Muslim countrymen to the laws of the land. Non-Muslims in Arab countries pay a far higher price than the Arabs in Israel. Can anyone see the hypocracy in the Arab objection to the "Jewish State"?

Your sarcasm is noted for the record. Just one question for you. Whom do you want operating on your heart? The affirmative action C- average Harvard grad who needed remedial reading classes and freebied it into medical school? Or the other guy?

# 68 is correct. Before 1947 Jews owned about 6% of the land of Israel. By the time Israel became a state in 1948, JNF owned 12.5% of all the land.

?? No sarcasm here. Are you trying to imply that Israeli Arab citizens are better off than Alabama black citizens in 1953? To the extent that I get a choice about a surgeon, I want the one with the better track record, other things equal. (Other things unequal, the one with the best track record is the one who only operates on people who are completely healthy.) The MDs raised with the most privileges might do better, just as the soldiers with the best weapons might prevail. But in either case they're likely to work for the people with the most privileges instead of me.

Precisely what I am trying to imply. I remind you that Israel's Arabs have full access to the political process (no poll taxes) and enjoy the right to vote. Israeli Arabs are treated in any hospital or Kupat Holim in Israel. They can drink from any water fountains they want, and no one burns crosses on their lawns. Nor are they lynched. Now, what was that you were saying about black citizens in Alabama in 1953? Did you re-read your post before submitting it? You should have. It is absurd on its face.

Sarah B, I agree that the situation in Israel is absurd on its face. Why should there be an apartheid nation in the 21st century? I do have to agree that sometimes the Israeli police have actually found Jewish terrorists who persecute Israeli arabs. And sometimes when they find them the terrorists are actually punished. Also there are a significant number of Israelis who are opposed to Israeli apartheid. So I guess I will agree that Israel is marginally better than South Carolina in 1953. And definitely better than apartheid South Africa.