Anti-draft dodgers rally in haredi stronghold
Yoav Zitun
Published: 02.04.10, 16:29
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1. Move to a professional army and avoid this
Al   (04.02.10)
constant debate about nothing. Drafted soldiers are useless in the extreme. Look at Vietnam where the Americans had their heads handed to them by the ground crawling Vietcong. A professional army is simply that a fine tuned killing machine whose objective is to destroy the enemy. Its not a social engineering experiment where "all segments of a society come together" You want a "come together" throw them a rave. If certain segments of your population refuse to learn to defend themselves, so be it. Its not up to the State to teach people to wipe their ass. They have one of two choices..either learn to defend themselves as in home defense or suffer the results. As to the governments role of defending the state , its time to move to a professional army!
2. What about Aviv Gefen and Barr Refaeli?
Ben ,   Gush Etzion   (04.02.10)
Why was Shimon Peres never in the IDF? How about Olmert and Sarid the jobniks whose service was a joke? How about Olmert's son the "areek"? People in glass houses should not throw stones!
3. Bnei Brak is a slum
Sagi   (04.02.10)
It is a very dirty town with garbage stewn all over the place, the dilapidated state of most of the buildings is an eyesore. I would not dare to eat or drink in any kiosk or cafe. I have been in many "third world countries" and believe me Bnei Brak is very reminiscient of them. I am ashamed when I have to pass through. There is no doubt in my mind that this slum is a symptom and the root cause is the residents and their attitude to life and the State. I would hope that one day it will be cleaned up just as the lower east side of NYC was and the east end of London. They were a disgrace and so is Bnei Brak.
4. Wrong focus.
Michael Steiner ,   Bahrain   (04.02.10)
They should be protesting the Talibanization of Israel: The sex-segregated bus lines, forcing people to close their businesses at prayer times, etc. What's the point of fighting against our blood-thirsty enemies if Israel becomes a Jewish Saudi Arabia run by a bunch of 16th-century-Ukranian shtetlniks?
5. Veitnam #1
DOV ,   USA   (04.02.10)
The Vietnam war was not fought in order to defend the USA homeland. The Israeli military is professional regardless of conscription. All must serve to protect the rights and freedoms they enjoy today, to do otherwise is being selfish.
6. "God said not to go to the military" - when and where?
Eric ,   Tel Aviv   (04.02.10)
When did God tell anyone to forgo defending themselves and their people? Seems I missed that, as did Moses; Judah Maccabee; Avishai; Avner; Ezra, Nehemiah, Zerubbabel, Sampson, etc. When did our God tell us to spend all our time studying Torah rather than defending our right to exist?
jewish doctor ,   NYC USA   (04.02.10)
SHAME SHAME SHAME...ONCE AGAIN THE HAREDI MAKES TARGETS OF US ALL. THESE COWARDS NEED TO BE MADE AN EXAMPLE OF! FOR THE BEST YOUTH OF ISRAEL GOES and dies TO DEFEND THE JEWISH PEOPLE WHILE others shamefully hide....these miserable heredi cowards should be "hidden" in the prisons with the rest of the enemies of the Jewish peoples and state
8. #1 - The USA has long history of conscription
Eric ,   Tel Aviv & New York   (04.02.10)
You seem to not know your American history: 1: During the American Revolutionary War, the states sometimes drafted men for militia duty or to fill state Continental Army units - the USA won 2: During the American Civil War the vast majority of US troops were volunteers, however; about 2% were draftees - the USA won 3: During the American Civil War the Confederate army also allowed conscription. 4: WW I Congress passed Conscription Act of 1917 only 2 months after war was declared - and the USA won. 5: WW II President Roosevelt's signing of the Selective Training and Service Act (STSA) on September 16, 1940 began the first peacetime draft in the United States. The USA later went on and won. 6. Korean War Selective Service inducted 1,529,539 conscripted men - the USA went on to win. 7. Vietnam military action (not war) first serious anti-conscription protests. The USA made a political decision and did not complete the war. So you should be careful when you say conscripted "soldiers are useless in the extreme." Look to our own history to see that it is not the conscript but the government's willingness to will that makes the difference.
9. Draft Dodging
Ben Pincus ,   Rockland County, NY   (04.02.10)
This protest should have been held in Los Angeles, Miami, and Bangkok. These are the places where real Israeli draft dodgers congregate and flock. If you stay in the country and don't serve because you have a legal exemption, somehow that's a problem. The real impetus here is anti-religious and nothing more. Bnai Brak is a convenient whipping boy when you don't want to look in the mirror.
10. Heredim
DOV ,   USA   (04.02.10)
lets not look upon them as enemies but as fellow countrymen. They know how to throw stones so one can assume that they have a fighting spirit when it come to defending their beliefs. They should learn to believe in the State of Israel.
StevieT ,   USA   (04.02.10)
Military service in the USA has the effect of unifying the populace, a tall order given the diversity in this country. Get the ultra orthadox in for their tour of duty and watch the radicallization of Israel start to decline.
12. The Draft
mark ,   canada   (04.02.10)
God did NOT say anything about not joining the Military. A nation must have a military capable of defense or offense when needed. For those who absolutely refuse in wartime, there is the firing squad. I would say that in Israel's position, there has to be a draft. If you do not serve, Israel may be destroyed because of dodgers and their camp followers. It serves no one to end up crying to God as you are being murdered for your own stupidity.
13. Haredi soldiers should persuade Haredi public
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (04.02.10)
A bunch of hilonim going into Bnei Brak or Mea Shearim is worthless, nobody will listen to them. Get soldiers and officers from the Nahal Haredi battalion to persuade their own community of the halachic requirements to defend the people in the land of Israel.
14. # 10 Dov "brothers"
Sagi   (04.02.10)
I disown them.
15. #1
Mr. Obvious   (04.02.10)
Israel has to have a conscription type military for one reason and one reason alone they simply don't have a big enough population to have a big enough full standing army so thats why israel relies on reserves and israel is not the only one in the world who uses this tactic
MR. OBVIOUS   (04.02.10)
17. #8 - A correction
nr ,   los angeles, usa   (04.02.10)
There were serious draft riots in the north during the civil war. In all Amerca's drafts, some served and some didn't. What is happening in Israel is not unusual from the standpoint of American history. It is unusual, from the standpoint of Jewish history. I think this is because in Israel's past, the army was a function of religious observance. This is not true of the IDF - it is a secular force and the religious do not want to be part of it. So when the hardei man said G-d said not to the army, I think he meant the secular nature of the IDF. No doubt, religious boys serving in the IDF would be unduly influenced by its secular nature.
18. Every man is created equal
The Charedim have to pull their weight and help defend their people instead of freeloading. They argue that they are studying Torah to help the nation. They are wrong because there is a time to pray and a time to take action, in the event of war we will need them. There were Jews living in Israel in ancient times and then the equivalent of the Haredim used to defend the people. If this was not the case Joshua would never have been able to capture the Holy Land, all his soldiers would have been in Yeshiva :S
19. Viet Cong were defeated. The NVA conquered the south...
Scott ,   USA   (04.02.10)
...two years after the US withdrew by violating a peace treaty. There was a famous confrontation after the war between an American and a North Vietnamese diplomat. The American said, "We won all of the battles." The NV said, "That is true, but it also doesn't matter." In other words, they won by staying in the fight longer. (And, of course, by violating the Treaty of Paris.)
20. What did God say?
Isaiah53 ,   San Luis Obispo,CA   (04.02.10)
I like you do not recall where Goid ever told anyone not to join the Military. But he has truly said; you do err not knowing the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. To spend all your time studying the law is a waste of a good life that might be better used to serve their fellowman. If they do not want to fight then put them in as K.P. duty or give them jobs as corpmen or something non combat but still needed so as to free up a willing soldier for combat duty. There should not be any class distinction among you. If you want to live in Israel then you must fight for her.
21. Influence.
Isaiah53 ,   San Luis Obispo,CA   (04.02.10)
Influence works both ways. Perhaps if the Haredi are so "Holy" they might be able to influence the secular natured troops to the other side. But if there were a few who were tempted perhaps it would teach them either restraint or give them an understanding of those not as spiritually minded. Either way it would be healthy.
22. #8 You're point is well taken however
Al   (04.02.10)
we live in a time what I define as the "Twitter Nation inhabited by Twitts", wherein all youth in the Western world are of one mind and time. Thus a conscript army irrespective of how "obvious" it may be in Israel will not serve the nation, but ineffect handicapes it. Thus we see endless political debate about nothing. A professional army with very little fat but trained soldiers whose mission is to throttle the enemy into submission is the only way to go. Home defence can be entrusted to para military militias. As I have stated many times more energy is expended chasing down draft dodgers and administrating a draft than training solid soldiers. This nonsense must end. You need professional soldiers who want to serve and who will serve to the best of their abilities.
23. give them a break
The IDF does not make an effort to accommodate the Haredi needs: kosher kitchens, strict separation of men and women and no violation of Shabbat.
24. It always happens like this.
Isaiah53 ,   San Luis Obispo, CA   (04.02.10)
Those who should be the light of the world, refuse to do any of the real work, holding themselves to be too good for such labor. The greatest leader is a servant to all. But the Haredi refuse to even do the most basic tasks to keep themselves clean. They refuse to do what they require of others. Then they attempt to explain it away with excuses about studying Torah. God is sickened by their form of Godliness. They have become a sty of Pigs and cannot see it. Such a waste and such a drag on their brothers who bear Arms.
25. I Volunteer.
Isaiah53 ,   San Luis Obispo,CA   (04.02.10)
I am willing to come to Israel as a soldier. I am 67 years old and have some mobility problems, but I would be proud and happy to come and stand with my brothers. Perhaps I srael should offer Aliyah to volunteers. How about it anyone want to raise your hands?
26. Change the law! Make them go to the army!
Michael ,   Galut   (04.02.10)
Oh yeah, but I forgot that the law cannot be changed because of the stupid political system in Israel that prevents the majority from making a decision that they would agree on, because the ruling party has to constantly worry about losing support since it never has a majority, unlike in the rest of developed countries. On the other hand, sometimes I think that maybe the majority doesn't want the law to be changed, just so that they can continue criticizing hareidim. There should be no exemption for learning in yeshiva. There is no halachic source to support this. There are four categories that are exempted in a non-obligatory war, and being in yeshiva is not one of them.
27. The Military Draft is a Form of Slavery
Boris Karpa ,   Ashdod, Israel   (04.02.10)
That is all. It is only acceptable to a degree in an age of national emergency, when the survival of Israel depends on it. The survival of Israel no longer depends on the draft. We are no longer surrounded by enemies who can crush us at our whim.
28. Blame Ben Gurion
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (04.02.10)
Ben Gurion created the draft exemption for yeshiva students 60 years ago because he believed that the haredi population would dwindle and become extinct except for a very small group that could be put onto reservations or in ghettoes. Well, he was freaking wrong. If the dati le'umi Zionists of that time had anticipated the religious population increase they could have taken more positive steps towards integrating the haredim into Israeli society instead of creating the divisions that we have today.
29. 2
Rosie   (04.02.10)
"People in glass houses should not throw stones!" The protestors were not Olmert's son or Aviv Gefen, or Bar Rafaeli, etc., those were combat soldiers and their parents! As to all kinds of dodgers, they all should pay additional tax, at least.
30. #22 - All
Eric ,   Tel Aviv & New York   (04.02.10)
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